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If you can find a local boat... within say.... 100 miles... makes things a lot easier.
That‘s about exactly the distance across the North Sea, from the Netherlands to the UK.;)

I’m not encouraging Rush to buy a particular boat, but I am encouraging him or her to go see some. Since the entire coast of the Netherlands is barely over 100 nm, it’s almost certain they’ll have to venture to neighboring countries.
 

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Rush,

Buy this boat 1979 Kalik 33 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk The price is right and the pictures are such a mess that you should be able to negotiate further. These were good all around boats built for the area in which you are sailing.

Plan 'B' would be 1987 X-Yachts X-99 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk. These are pretty versatile designs. They take more skill to sail and have less room than the Kalik, but you will learn to sail more rapidly and these are extremely robustly built boats also designed for your neck of the woods. The Buhk 1 cyl is easy to work on (I had one in my Laser 28) and parts should be easier to get in the EU than they are here.This would be an extremely easy boat to sail short-hand. While this is a fast boat, once reefed down and flying a small jib, they can stand up to some pretty brutal conditions.

The point being that you can sail the living daylights out of either of these boats. they should be easy and cheap to maintain. They make a good platform to learn to sail, live aboard and learn to maintain a boat. When done, you should be able to sell the boat for close to what you paid for it. Boats like these will remain popular and marketable, where as most of the older boats will be very hard to find a buyer for.

Jeff
Ya don't see too many boats with signal flag cubbies. That alone should shoot it to the top of the list.

Rush, how great is it that you are getting free yacht consultant advice from an actual (former) yacht designer?
 

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Jeff,
Nice find!
A friend of mine has been sailing a Kalik 30 for about 20 years. Won oodles of races. Tiller with "tread master" non skid.
Interior like a Danish furniture display.
It is a fast boat that goes to weather wonderfully.

Damned good looking boat, too.
 

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Absolutely. You’re going to need to spend money. It’s good to see you asking questions and accepting advice. However, you’ll never think of them all. You have to make some compromises, learn a couple lessons the hard way, just like most things in life.

You really have to go see some boats. I’d spend some money to go see the one that appeals to you above, then ask for receipts, or make your offer subject to them, if they seem warranted. Maybe hire someone to do a cursory look with you.

Good luck.
Well I was getting ready to take action, but I haven't heard from the seller for two business days now. When I asked about the chain plates and a couple other details, the line went silent. Maybe he's waiting to hear back, we'll see. I'm starting to look locally, just to get out there and actually spend a little time 'hands on'. Great ideas thanks.
 

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Bad idea to import a boat. Look local... buy local.
Casting a wider net at first seemed like a great idea. But now I see that it ads a whole lot of complexity, esp in these wonderful flu days. Just to look I have to book a flight and hotel. Hmm, Netherlands has tons of boats, it's literally a sailing culture, maybe I should bring in that net a bit...
 

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Rush,

Buy this boat 1979 Kalik 33 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk The price is right and the pictures are such a mess that you should be able to negotiate further. These were good all around boats built for the area in which you are sailing.

Plan 'B' would be 1987 X-Yachts X-99 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk. These are pretty versatile designs. They take more skill to sail and have less room than the Kalik, but you will learn to sail more rapidly and these are extremely robustly built boats also designed for your neck of the woods. The Buhk 1 cyl is easy to work on (I had one in my Laser 28) and parts should be easier to get in the EU than they are here.This would be an extremely easy boat to sail short-hand. While this is a fast boat, once reefed down and flying a small jib, they can stand up to some pretty brutal conditions.

The point being that you can sail the living daylights out of either of these boats. they should be easy and cheap to maintain. They make a good platform to learn to sail, live aboard and learn to maintain a boat. When done, you should be able to sell the boat for close to what you paid for it. Boats like these will remain popular and marketable, where as most of the older boats will be very hard to find a buyer for.

Jeff
Hmm, OK, well the first one is a mess LOL. Maybe that could lead to a great deal.
Neither boat has had anything at all replaced, so that's a bit troubling. But, it wouldn't hurt to at least start getting out to see a few. Thanks for the recommendations.
 

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That first one isn't as big of a mess as you think, although the engine might be toast. Since you are focused on chainplates recently, both of those have easily accessible and inspectable ones. The X-Yacht has about the most serious chainplates I've seen - running 6' down main bulkheads and gusseted at deck level. Dude, you aren't going to find chainplates that robust on any other boat.

You also won't find any other boat that sails, and is as much fun to sail, as that X-Yacht. You will be pressed to find a boat within your parameters that cruises as well as the Kalik.

Two concerns on the Kalik - the engine, and I think these originally had screwed teak decks. If the faux teak was just laid over that, or the original was removed but a wet deck remains, then there will be issues soon. The faux teak will make determining a wet deck difficult now, although it looks like enough of the overhead is removed to probe from beneath. It would be the more roomy and comfortable cruising boat, and the new paint and deck make it a real looker.

The X-Yacht was obviously raced, and probably rode hard, but is a simpler boat that can shrug off much of that type of use - hose it down and go again. Unlikely systems like the stove, engine, and other "cruising" gear were used much. It would be more spartan for cruising, but not bad at all.

These were good finds, and are much better cruising and sailing boats than the heavy crab-crushers you originally considered. They are about the opposite of what you are looking for, but you shouldn't dismiss them without wrapping your head around them first.

Mark
 

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Hmm, OK, well the first one is a mess LOL. Maybe that could lead to a great deal.
Neither boat has had anything at all replaced, so that's a bit troubling. But, it wouldn't hurt to at least start getting out to see a few. Thanks for the recommendations.
I don't think that the Kalik is a mess. You are seeing a boat that is near the end of a major rebuild project. The cabin has everything piled up in it, but it seems to be in decent shape for a boat of that age. The Kalik had all of its ports and hatches replaced. It has had its primary winches replaced as well some of its deck hardware. The keel was faired and may have had its keel bolts replaced based on the paint extends onto the base plate of the keel. The deck repair appears to be a comprehensive replacement and looking at the quality of the work over the deck, more likely than not the repairs were thoroughly performed. There appears to be new compasses and updated instruments. The halyards and control lines have been routed to the cockpit. The traveler looks modern as well. The chainplates are visible and easily replaced. While there obviously wear patterns in the interior, any boat that has had any use will be marked by wear and tear. The Kalik does have a lovely interior for a boat of this size.

The X-boat has new sails and lots of new running rigging. The chainplates are easily replaced and pretty cheap to buy.

But to be clear, these are newer boats and likely to be better engineered and in better shape than the boats that you have previously been considering.
But also these boats are in your backyard and would be easy to inspect and easier to buy, and that in itself adds value.

Jeff
 
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Well I was getting ready to take action, but I haven't heard from the seller for two business days now. When I asked about the chain plates and a couple other details, the line went silent. Maybe he's waiting to hear back, we'll see. I'm starting to look locally, just to get out there and actually spend a little time 'hands on'. Great ideas thanks.
I hope they are researching your answers for you. However, asking for winterization receipts before you even saw the boat may have sent an unintended signal. The broker may or may not have other interest in that boat, but they most certainly represent many others, who probably aren't demanding that kind of time, prior to ever viewing. Once a broker knows you're serious about buying a particular boat, they devote more time to satisfy the little details.
 
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Weatherization receipts? I do all the winterization of the engine which involved an oil and filter change and some antifreeze added to the fresh water and engine raw water circuits. I also do some projects during winter store and do keep receipts for spendy items. I only had the engine worked on by a mechanic a few times in 35 yrs and I do have the receipts in a folder I never look through at home. I've been keeping a log which is very comprehensive in ExCel since the late 90s. Back further my maintenance was not well documented.... but it was mostly upgrades... not repairs.... new sails, running rigging, new dinks and OBs, new winches. "replacements" came in the well documented period... life lines, stanchions, hatches and ports... head, water pumps, electrical system, exterior teak...

I never thought about the need to present this to the next owner... as I never thought about a next owner. Now I am thinking about it.
 

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That Kalik is a long way from a mess actually. I you are new to sailing it's easy to get hung up on clutter, old interiors, etc. But those are the things that make a boat a great value, because they are relatively easy to upgrade and won't sink your boat or your budget.

Also, when you're buying a used boat, it's important to inspect the owner as well. Judging from the fact that the boat is stored indoors, and there is a picture of two kids on the deck, you can assume the owner is a risk adverse sort. It's not a boat owned by a knucklehead for what that is worth.
 

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If Rush is looking for a learn to sail boat it hardly matters about many of the details. He'll learn to sail, to maintain a boat, discover how much space he needs in the interior... tankage and so forth and if he wants to take the next step. If he does he'll sell and buy the right boat armed with experience. If he doesn't he can sell and exit.

If he doesn't want a starter boat... then he should spend the time... and the money, even if it means a loan/mortgage and get the right boat. Trading up is a financially losing endeavor. It consumes times.. and you have to repeat almost everything you did once again.

Those seem like OK coastal cruisers but a bit small to live aboard. AP for tillers would be a consideration too.
 

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Do they give loans on a 40 year old boat? Buying a boat that age on credit doesn't sound ideal. Wouldn't be for me. Lots of people live on boats that size. Tiller pilots are a thing. Those boats look good possibilities to me.
 

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Thanks for the feedback all. I am having a bit of a hard time wrapping my head around these two latest boats. Here I had just adjusted to the idea that new standing rigging, running rigging, wiring, and engine would be paramount, and now I feel like I'm shifting gears again. I think the recommendations to actually get out there and see boats is a good one. At least I can then develop some ideas what I like and don't to help anchor my search. So that's my focus now- to get out and see.

Also I saw that Elijah raised his budget from 30k to 45k and I'm thinking I may do the same. I really wanted a very stable boat, not only for the North Sea, but hopefully to get a few friends on board for day sails at least who are a bit averse to sailing and not at all liking 'when they lean suddenly'. And I also like the idea of as stable and firm a boat as possible in case I'm solo and changing sails or reefing I just want as stable a platform as possible. So by descriptions the Kalik sounds more interesting to me than the x-boat. Fun and exciting is not the 'vibe' I'm going for, more like chill and relaxed :)

And Sander O's idea of it being difficult to upgrade has been on my mind lately. It seems some boats sit for months or even years before sale, maybe with problems, maybe just looking for a match to a new owner, but they seem to be a lot more trouble to step up with than say a car, which can be a weekend deal. So maybe it is best to slow down the search and save up a bit more. I am going to try to get out and see a couple this weekend though, just to get some ideas.

By the way the Grampian salesman just disappeared- two emails following up, and he's ghosting me. Never asked for receipts, only the chain plate design, and if inspected. Guess he doesn't like people who ask questions? Geez it was only three emails before he disappeared. Anyway!

Well thanks again for all the wonderful feedback as usual. Eventually I'm going to nail one of these boats down!
For now I'm actually pretty excited about some hand's on inspection ;-)
 

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Thanks for the feedback all. I am having a bit of a hard time wrapping my head around these two latest boats. Here I had just adjusted to the idea that new standing rigging, running rigging, wiring, and engine would be paramount, and now I feel like I'm shifting gears again. I think the recommendations to actually get out there and see boats is a good one. At least I can then develop some ideas what I like and don't to help anchor my search. So that's my focus now- to get out and see.

Also I saw that Elijah raised his budget from 30k to 45k and I'm thinking I may do the same. I really wanted a very stable boat, not only for the North Sea, but hopefully to get a few friends on board for day sails at least who are a bit averse to sailing and not at all liking 'when they lean suddenly'. And I also like the idea of as stable and firm a boat as possible in case I'm solo and changing sails or reefing I just want as stable a platform as possible. So by descriptions the Kalik sounds more interesting to me than the x-boat. Fun and exciting is not the 'vibe' I'm going for, more like chill and relaxed :)

And Sander O's idea of it being difficult to upgrade has been on my mind lately. It seems some boats sit for months or even years before sale, maybe with problems, maybe just looking for a match to a new owner, but they seem to be a lot more trouble to step up with than say a car, which can be a weekend deal. So maybe it is best to slow down the search and save up a bit more. I am going to try to get out and see a couple this weekend though, just to get some ideas.

By the way the Grampian salesman just disappeared- two emails following up, and he's ghosting me. Never asked for receipts, only the chain plate design, and if inspected. Guess he doesn't like people who ask questions? Geez it was only three emails before he disappeared. Anyway!

Well thanks again for all the wonderful feedback as usual. Eventually I'm going to nail one of these boats down!
For now I'm actually pretty excited about some hand's on inspection ;-)
I've been away from this thread all week because I'm just too busy to keep up. But coming back after a week and reading this message and recalling the ones I've read over the past month or so, I can glean the following, which may or may not be inaccurate and/or unfair:
  • You've made 213 posts with all sorts of questions
  • Many of these questions have been micro-focused on your most recent "issue of the week" instead of looking at the big picture
  • You apparently haven't gone to actually see any boats yet
  • You've worn out your welcome with the Grampian salesman by sending too many emails without going to look at the boat(s).
You need to realize that brokers are easily annoyed by "tire kickers", and even more annoyed by emailed questions. They have a lot of experience at identifying who is likely to actually purchase a boat, and it's their job to do so. They're not in the business for charity. At a certain point they may conclude you're not worth their time.

I don't think you're going to be taken seriously unless you go look at some boats, and keep an open mind to the total balance of features (plusses and minuses) of each design, without overly focusing on one design feature. If they sense that you're inclined toward "paralysis by analysis" you will get labeled as a "tire kicker".

I apologize if I sound harsh, but I just thought I should share the perspective that a broker is likely to have. (No, I am definitely not a broker, I just play one on TV. lol)
 

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By the way the Grampian salesman just disappeared- two emails following up, and he's ghosting me.
It could be due to a number of things: boat could be sold, broker could be busy closing a deal or away on holiday or the seller is non-responsive. The thought that they are focused elsewhere, due to just an email interaction is quite likely too. Can you give the broker a call? That substantially increases their attention level.

Just a heads up. Be prepared that the brokers are going to ask you questions, most likely in a friendly conversational way. A good salesman tries to size up the buyer. Are they worth the time. Are they likely to buy something, although, it doesn't have to be the specific boat you' re calling on. They'll happily sell you another, if more likely to close. They'll probably ask something about your job, or similar, trying to determine if you can afford what you're looking at too.

Give honest answers, but express confidence that you can and are you're going to buy, if you want to keep their attention. Don't get too far in the weeds, until you think it's a boat you really want.
 
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I've been away from this thread all week because I'm just too busy to keep up. But coming back after a week and reading this message and recalling the ones I've read over the past month or so, I can glean the following, which may or may not be inaccurate and/or unfair:
  • You've made 213 posts with all sorts of questions
  • Many of these questions have been micro-focused on your most recent "issue of the week" instead of looking at the big picture
Fair enough. Though I have to say with how much I've learned in those 213 posts, I figure I've saved myself a fortune of both time and money in trial and error and learning the hard way. If I had bought a boat it most certainly would have been a Nicholson 38, because I thought it was pretty, and looked like it was in good shape. Now I realize it had literally nothing replaced, would have cost me 2-3x purchase price to get usable, wouldn't have sailed well, and would have been a terrible live aboard.

  • You apparently haven't gone to actually see any boats yet
Well I've seen hundreds online, including videos, and owner reviews. And I walk by a marina and oggle every day..

  • You've worn out your welcome with the Grampian salesman by sending too many emails without going to look at the boat(s).
If that's true, and I'm not saying it's not, then boat salesmen are in for a no effort grift, it couldn't have been a half hour of his time in total answering my questions. And I'd think he'd be more motivated considering it's been for sale for over a year.

It wouldn't be the first time that I've heard that many of these guys really don't earn their money. Hence the market for apolloduck.com and sailboatlistings.com.

Besides most of my questions surrounded discrepancies in the ad itself- one part saying that a fully custom keel was created at a specific cost, from a specific manufacturer, then later saying they just replaced the bolts. That was bizarre... Another part said the engine was 1999 and well maintained, while in description it said it was 2007 and replaced. Hmm...

I found it more than a little bit off putting that they never bothered to read their own ad.
It appeared to be either highly unprofessional or shady. That ad begged for 'shaking the tree'.

Again not saying you're wrong. It would appear that their target is somebody who asks fewer questions ;-)
Maybe I should be selling boats!
When you see a market doing a less than adequate job, that's a business opportunity- Richard Branson.

Anyway, point taken. Go see the boat if you want to get taken seriously. Thanks.
 

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It could be due to a number of things: boat could be sold, broker could be busy closing a deal or away on holiday or the seller is non-responsive. The thought that they are focused elsewhere, due to just an email interaction is quite likely too. Can you give the broker a call? That substantially increases their attention level.

Just a heads up. Be prepared that the brokers are going to ask you questions, most likely in a friendly conversational way. A good salesman tries to size up the buyer. Are they worth the time. Are they likely to buy something, although, it doesn't have to be the specific boat you' re calling on. They'll happily sell you another, if more likely to close. They'll probably ask something about your job, or similar, trying to determine if you can afford what you're looking at too.

Give honest answers, but express confidence that you can and are you're going to buy, if you want to keep their attention. Don't get too far in the weeds, until you think it's a boat you really want.
Good points thanks.
Phone call > email.
Questions are a two way street, as the value of their time is also involved, I am also being interviewed.

Funny thing about that Grampian, I was ready to jump on it. If their ad had been more in order, and the salesman happy to inspire confidence by following through with detailed responses, I might have got a good surveyor, ordered up a captain, and bought sight unseen! I had a good sense about the boat fulfilling my needs from Jeff_H and MikeOReilly's feedback, and the sheer amount of money poured into it was practically a deal sealer.

OK, I probably would have flown over to supervise the inspection as suggested. But geez did that ad, and their handling of the discrepancies really specialize in undermining confidence.

Oh well, you guys are probably right I should be looking closer to home anyway, so its not such a drama just to go and see it.
 

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Also I saw that Elijah raised his budget from 30k to 45k and I'm thinking I may do the same. I really wanted a very stable boat, not only for the North Sea, but hopefully to get a few friends on board for day sails at least who are a bit averse to sailing and not at all liking 'when they lean suddenly'. And I also like the idea of as stable and firm a boat as possible in case I'm solo and changing sails or reefing I just want as stable a platform as possible. So by descriptions the Kalik sounds more interesting to me than the x-boat. Fun and exciting is not the 'vibe' I'm going for, more like chill and relaxed :)
Again, this beats all others for those requirements: Sailing Catamarans - Miriam Sagitta catamaran

Mark
 
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