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safe cooking

26K views 300 replies 39 participants last post by  hellosailor 
#1 ·
i have read a lot of threads about stoves on boats. of course, the usual debate is alcohol or propane.

recently, last month actually, a powerboat at the marina my boat is berthed at caught fire and burned up completely. it was a live aboard. the guy was hurt but he lived. he was lucky. he bought another power boat off of their lean dock and moved into it. the cause? his propane stove.

that was a real piece of reality for me. no propane on my boat!

but, there are safety risks with alcohol, too. the threads i have read make that plain. so, the big question i have is what other options are there?

also, how real is the risk with alcohol?

as i get my boat ready to sail, this will be a choice i am going to have to face. it doesn't have a stove but i will want one for cruising. eating out at every port you stp at is going to be way too costly and you can't always be sure you will be stopping at a port for the night. thanks.
 
#265 ·
Not gonna quote who I'm replying to, just gonna give the replies.

The reason propane is so popular is because it's a gas at room temperature but liquefies at a relatively low pressure (about 100-150 psi). That makes it easy to store (a thin metal pressure vessel lets you store it as a liquid), but burns as a gas so provides good heat density. Butane is similar but liquefies at an even lower pressure. As others have pointed out, propane and butane sink in air, so are a particular danger aboard boats as a leak will build up in the bilge. Fire is the main danger when that happens. Explosions require a rather specific ratio of fuel to air, and typically require it to be mixed rather than striated with fuel on the bottom, air on top. If the ratio is off, it will just burn (too much air) or simmer (too much fuel) rather than explode.

CNG (methane) remains a gas under pressure. So CNG tanks are typically designed to withstand 1000-5000 psi. They have to be much thicker - think scuba diving tank. This has weight and safety implications. The energy density for a given volume is also much worse than the liquid fuels. Also note that methane is normally odorless. The Gas Company adds the smell you know as the leaking gas smell, and farts smell because of sulfates mixed in with the methane. I would assume CNG sold as fuel also has the smell added.

The liquid fuels - alcohol and kerosene for this application - don't burn as well because they're liquid. You need to do something to increase their surface area to burn enough of it at once to really generate heat. Typically this is done with a wick, but it's not as good as a gaseous fuel. That's why people complain about long cooking times. Gasoline and diesel burned in an engine use either a carburetor or injector to vaporize the liquid to get around this problem. Pressurized alcohol stoves also gasify the alcohol prior to burning to get around this problem. But the lack of surface area (low rate at which it vaporizes) also has an upside - it makes the fuel safer.

Kerosene also has a problem in that it's not as clean burning as the other fuels. Like gasoline and diesel, it's actually composed of a lot of different hydrocarbons, each of which burns differently. So you're more likely to get other compounds than CO2, water, and soot after burning. That's why people complain about the smell.

Electric has a huge efficiency problem. All the fuels listed above are 100% efficient for heating applications. That is, all the energy in the fuel goes into heating up your cookware (before it dissipates into the air). Gas and diesel generators are only about 30% or 35% efficient at best. That is, 30%-35% of the energy in the fuel is converted into electricity. The rest goes into heating up the generator. So if you're using a 1000W electric stove, for every 1000W of heat that makes it to your cookware, about 2500W of heat is wasted heating up the seawater or air cooling your generator. So unless you're on shore power or getting all your electricity from wind/solar, this has huge implications for the amount of fuel burned for a given number of meals. If you do go electric though, I think induction is the way to go. It's more finicky, but it almost completely eliminates the risk of fire due to something flammable falling on the heating element.

Carbon monoxide is a higher energy state than carbon dioxide, so is typically a byproduct of insufficient oxygenation. The fuel wants to burn into CO2, but there's not enough oxygen so it becomes CO instead. As long as you have good ventilation to your burner (the outlets are clean with good airflow) and aren't trying to burn too large a quantity of fuel at once, you shouldn't have a carbon monoxide problem.

Energy density of these fuels:

Propane: 49.6 MJ/kg, 25.3 MJ/liter
Butane: 49.1 MJ/kg, 27.7 MJ/liter
Alcohol: 30 MJ/kg, 24 MJ/liter
CNG: 55.6 MJ/kg, 0.038 MJ/liter (1 atmosphere), 12.9 MJ/liter (5000 psi)
Kerosene: 42.8 MJ/kg, 33 MJ/liter
Gasoline: 46.4 MJ/kg, 34.2 MJ/liter
Diesel: 46.2 MJ/kg, 37.3 MJ/liter

This tells you how much of a fuel you'll need to burn to cook identical meals. Lower numbers = more fuel needed; divide by 3.5 for gas electric, 3 for diesel electric. e.g. CNG stored at 5000 psi is 12.9 MJ/liter, so you'll need just about twice the volume of CNG to cook a meal as you would propane (25.3 MJ/liter). An electric stove running off a gas generator is equivalent to about 10.7 MJ/liter, so you'd burn 2.4 gallons of gasoline for every 1 gallon of propane used for cooking. Induction is probably better because it heats the cookware directly, though I'm not sure how much better.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about the day-to-day use of these fuels to comment on their relative safety. But understand that there are a lot of different factors which should go into your decision than just safety.
 
#267 ·
friend of mine bought one recently. wasnew.
kerosene stinks when burning, so isnt like yer gonna sit inside with the doors shut and breathe this stink.

cng is great.
but..... try to obtain it easily outside of usa. is not available here, that i have found.... i am in mexico, btw.....

might be a really great idea to research cooking fuels in the locales you plan on cruising so you can figure out what kind of cooking you want to do on board at sea in a seaway and at anchor in bumpy and in smooth anchorages before committing self to anything.
there are many miles between the dream stage and inside usa cruising and out in the world of omygodswhatami gonna cook with., there isnt alcohol nor cng in mexico..nor kerosene... omy now what me gonna do as i refused to use propane on board ,..yada yada yada.....(as well as refused to listen to that crazy ***** who is actually out in mexico cruising and seeking items friends request....)
 
#269 · (Edited)
i have been in mexico here for 3 years--got here april 7, 2011, by sailboat from san diego..lol.... not in border towns nor in ****** locales, but with locals in ports with my cat and my boat. i will be sailing here until my boat is finished....needs some work now.
are you here in mexico or are you at a puter desk in northville.
friends of mine live in mexico in houses. they have lived here longer than have i, and they let me know what is not available here for citizens and turistas and other non military folks.
 
#273 · (Edited)
well I was shot down...since captain jack isnt leaving the states soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

thats that for various fuel consumption sources in different countries

down here the word KEROSENE doesnt even exist...they use the word solvente or gas(gas in this case is DIESEL which is like kerosene but NOT exactly the same, as jet fuel either)

point being a pint of gas(diesel solvent) is around 8 bucks...vey expensive when you compare that to propane which is subsidzied by government and around $11 for 35lbs!

diesel at the pump is $4 but you would be very smoky and sooty doing so...yes there are diesel cookers down here but no go on a boat they are messy

as a fellow cruiser a while back I did a few refueling trips for some who needed a propane refuel for their boats on my motorcycle...

I got charged by the pound up here in san salvador loaded it back on my bike rode down to the anchorage and bobs your uncle

I also mentioned that not all places even in the states "view" alcohol or kerosene as cooking fuel so it is more scarce...but like everything good up north once you find a cood purveyor and price you just keep going to that place and your good to go

anywhoo

my input in this thread is done I guess...

hope jack gets a nice little stove for his boat and gets cooking stuff for the girlfriend

peace
 
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#277 · (Edited)
if you need to consider a mere splaination to folks as defensive. mebbe you should relearn psych 101a.

if it were still available in fueling stations then folks would actually be able to find the stuff....lol what have i said...fueling stations have gas, diesel, oil. only. if google sed otherwise, then the magical pump must be well hidden that no one can locate it.
 
#281 ·
My experience includes non-pressurized alcohol (Origo), propane, and CNG. I've had CNG on my sailboat for the past 18 years and am very comfortable with it from a safety standpoint. That said, you need to plan on CNG exchanges/refills, as others have noted that it can be very inconvenient if you run out on a cruise. My boat came with one tank, but I added a second after running out of gas on a cruise and not finding CNG nearby.

CNG is also relatively expensive. My last exchange (Westerly , RI) cost $41 for 80 cu. ft. Several years ago I replaced my 2-stage regulator at a cost of $450. Still and all, I wouldn't switch to propane because of the safety factor of having a gas that is lighter than air. If I were to cruise farther afield and found that CNG was not available I would reconsider.
 
#284 ·
its available guys...just not often called kerosene as we know it...its primary use down here in central america is as a solvent for paints and the like or as a cleaning agent for mechanics, motor rebuild places...etc...

petroleo sounds right for mexico but I cant remember...in guatemala its solvente as well...

basically I was researching all this as I wanted to make a home brew octane and fuel cleaner for my racing offroad motorcycle I had a while back

I needed a mix of toulene, kerosene and some other goodies...basically I could not find pure toulene and when getting specific about kerosene I just couldnt risk it with the mislabelling of the word kerosene down here so I avoided doing so...

anywhoo
 
#285 ·
Have an Origo and love it. No problem filling the canisters if you take them out of the gimballed stove and with the gaskets evaporation hasn't been an issue.

What I do find worrying is how quickly the CO level goes up in the cabin (and I am sure this will be true for all combustive stoves that do not vent outside). Used to be tempted to keep the hatch closed when it's really cold and wet to make a quick cuppa until I got my alarm telling me ! More worrying to have any open combustion inside the cabin for heating like the "heat pal". Origo used to make a combined ethanol and electric cooker, so at least when you are on shore power you could cook with electricity. Haven't seen that around for a while ...
 
#287 ·
Have an Origo and love it. No problem filling the canisters if you take them out of the gimballed stove and with the gaskets evaporation hasn't been an issue.

What I do find worrying is how quickly the CO level goes up in the cabin (and I am sure this will be true for all combustive stoves that do not vent outside). Used to be tempted to keep the hatch closed when it's really cold and wet to make a quick cuppa until I got my alarm telling me ! More worrying to have any open combustion inside the cabin for heating like the "heat pal". Origo used to make a combined ethanol and electric cooker, so at least when you are on shore power you could cook with electricity. Haven't seen that around for a while ...
Actually this is one of the great benefits of propane. No appreciable amount of CO. The bi-products of combustion are CO2 and H2O. That's why you see so many propane stoves and ovens in campers, trailers, boats etc without venting.
 
#286 ·
Christian, if you can't find 'kerosene' trying asking for it under it's British name.

Paraffin Oil.

That might apply to other places outside of the US as well. "Kerosene" is a Colonial term, in fact a US trademark from 1854. It is not a material, it is a brand of material.

The way we baffle the world expecting to find a Kleenex (brand of facial tissue) or some Scotch (brand of self-adhesive cellophane) tape.

I would be surprised if the inefficient combustion from an unpressurized Origo stove was putting a higher amount of CO in the combustion products. Along with the gobs of water they put out. Someone who cares can look that one up. (G)
 
#297 ·
NOPE

its called gas...pure kerosene is a no go...tried to explain that

but thanks though...

I got really investigative for my motorcycle project and it was a no go...simply put kerosene like would be used for a cooker you couldt find...

diesel and the gas version of kerosene called solvente yes...it will work its just not feasible money wise...:D
 
#288 ·
"That's why you see so many propane stoves and ovens in "
I knew the guy who almost died from the original "Hot Walter" propane heater in a boat shower. Passed out from the unvented CO produced by that unit, which knocked the company and the general design off the marine market.

So, maybe less CO, but still plenty enough to kill.
 
#290 ·
Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of that. I saw an on demand hot water heater on a recent survey that wasn't vented and it's removal was recommended. There's something missing to this story because NONE of the propane stoves that I've ever seen are vented. I kept a CO monitor on my boat that gives numerical readings and it never registered a single PPM from my propane stove. Once it registered a bit from my kerosene Aladdin lamp when I didn't have it adjusted properly, but then again, that's kerosene.

MedSailor
 
#289 ·
Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Deaths Associated with Camping -- Georgia, March 1999

Not a recent publication and perhaps the design of propane stoves has significantly improved to reduce the risk of incomplete combustion since. Thinking where most of the stuff,that budget sailors like myself use, is being made, I doubt it. Point that I wanted to make is: everybody seemed to worry about specific issues with different combustive fuels (ethanol vs paraffin vs propane etc ...) . We shouldn't forget that if you burn something in a small closed space there is a risk of exposure to carbon monoxide. Now the said cup of tea will bring my CO meter up to 70-80 (ish) PPM. Won't kill you, but if that was your cup before going to sleep you'll feel pretty dreadful the next morning.
 
#296 ·
what one SHOULD be able to find HERE in mexico and what one DOES find HERE in mexico SHOULD be same...HOWEVER there is no alternative fuel found in ferreterias which are hardware stores there is none in pemex. there is none in walmart nor costco. come to mexico and do OFFLINE and REAL research instead of sitting at your puter. you might find your god lies. not all you read on google is fact.
get down here and try to find your precious non propane stove fuel.
migjt possibly find some in baja, but NO where else.
 
#298 ·
I certainly had a stench initially when using my alcochol wick stove...that my folkboat came with...It quickly unsooted though and there are tricks to eliminate the initial stench...think it was you had to push the wick down and keep it soaked or something...cant remember that and clean the "burners" often

but it was something I could do and deal with...I was in berkeley in cool san fran weather most of the time for there it was fine...no issues...

but like all things its give or take or a compromise...
 
#299 ·
that sounds about right for a wick stove. i have heated the garage with kero heaters, the wick kind, for years. the wick has be properly saturated or they will smoke. of course, when they smoke, the CO levels go way up. they aren't all that safe, unless you make sure you have good ventilation, anyway....kero heaters of that sort, i mean.

anyhow, it makes sense that your wick alcohol heater would have opperated that way.
 
#301 ·
Home Depot follows WalMart's pricing policy: Make a big deal over the sale items, charge full freight for everything else people might wander in for. BUT if you use a smartphone and a bar code app, and if you can find the same item elsewhere "locally" for less, HD also will give you the lower price plus another 10%.

So a word to the frugal sailor...Light bulbs, often 25% less at Lowes, HD will give you the lower price plus 10%. Shower heads and plumbing? Bed Bath Beyond is often 25% less (and they're never cheap!) and HD will give you the discount plus.

But you do have to ask for it, unless you get lucky & the Depoid helping you is anxious to keep your business, and offers to check the price for you. (G)
 
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