[blt2ski]

Puget Sound area has been 10-15% for who knows how many years. That seems ave increase. Then again, housing is averaging 10-15% with a few years at 20%. A house in 1984 you could get for 120K is now 1.5M. The house I bought for 60 is now 750K 3 bed 1 bath at 750 sq ft with a one car garage! A start house is 400-500K around here.

 

[Minnewaska]

Puget Sound area has been 10-15% for who knows how many years.

Wow, so your slip fees double every 5-7 years? I wonder if we’re starting from the same base. In RI, summer seasonal rates for a six month slip range between $200 and $300 per foot today.

 

[pdqaltair]

The problem, as I see it in my local area (Chesapeake Bay) is not the number of sailors, it is the number of people that want to own a boat ... and then just leave it sit and sit and sit. The marinas are more full, but the number of boats on the water on any day seem about half or less than 30 years ago and less than just a few years ago. The boat is a trophy.

I see the same thing in rock climbing. Gyms are popular, classes are popular (kids and adults) and read all about climbing, but the actual number of climbers on outdoor routes, particularly if the walk from the parking lot is more than 5 minutes, is far less than a decade or a few ago. As a climber, the increase in classes was a pain, but mostly they stay to easy stuff and the fab seems to be passing; the classes have moved to the gyms, where the weather is ... air conditioned. I've actually heard people complain that the holds on the outdoor cliffs aren't labeled.

People want to talk about adventure, but actual exposure to the elements, commitment, or risk are less pleasant than surfing the web (and here I am, but yesterday I was sailing and the day before climbing). In addition to the trophy factor, I'm sure this correlates with people buying bigger and bigger boats, which they soon realize they don't have the skills to singlehand since they never served a small boat apprenticeship. So they sit.

If only there was a way to gently push out boats that don't move. Nearly half of the boats in my marina have not been out this year, and half of those not in 5 years. But they pay the fee. You would think that would motivate them to sell or to store it on the hard, but no.

 

[Minnewaska]

The boat is a trophy.

For some that could be true. However, I think boats are used somewhat more than we observe, unless you actually live at the marina. Some are weekend only, some are weekday only, in my marina. The two never see each other.

More likely is the latter if a couple of friends of ours. They never day sail. They come for a week or two, then leave for a month, then repeat. They probably have at least an average number of days on the water, but it could be easy to miss them all summer and see their boat sit.

I think the real driver is the expansion of the mass affluent class who can afford a toy, more than a trophy. Perhaps a bad financial decision.

 

[PGandW]

For some that could be true. However, I think boats are used somewhat more than we observe, unless you actually live at the marina. Some are weekend only, some are weekday only, in my marina. The two never see each other.

More likely is the latter if a couple of friends of ours. They never day sail. They come for a week or two, then leave for a month, then repeat. They probably have at least an average number of days on the water, but it could be easy to miss them all summer and see their boat sit.

Unfortunately, the alternative you present just doesn't jive with my observations. Since retiring and getting back into sailing, I'm not constrained by the calendar. I can and do go whenever the weather is reasonable - I avoid single handing when winds are over 20kts. There is a marina with about 30 sailboats about 2 miles downstream in the creek that I pass every time I sail. There will maybe one or two boats coming/going on a weekend, and none on weekdays. Once out in western Albemarle Sound, I might see one or two other sailboats, and 3-4 power boats. At first I was astonished by the lack of use of these boats, but now have gotten used to being alone on the Sound. May be different in other areas - Long Island Sound seems to be a pretty busy place still.

The lack of other boats out there, and lack of even Coast Guard radio presence, has led me to review my own safety procedures because I have realized that there will likely be nobody to assist for several hours should I have an emergency (assumes I can get a distress call out). My thanks to Jeff H for his assistance in getting me to look at the situation and equip myself properly (wearing an immersion inflatable PFD with a PLB).

Fred W
Stuart (ODay) Mariner 19 Sweet P

 

[pdqaltair]

For some that could be true. However, I think boats are used somewhat more than we observe, unless you actually live at the marina. Some are weekend only, some are weekday only, in my marina. The two never see each other.

More likely is the latter if a couple of friends of ours. They never day sail. They come for a week or two, then leave for a month, then repeat. They probably have at least an average number of days on the water, but it could be easy to miss them all summer and see their boat sit.

I think the real driver is the expansion of the mass affluent class who can afford a toy, more than a trophy. Perhaps a bad financial decision.

True. And of course, your last sentence. And that's fine, except that it ties up a limited resource for people that would actually use it. Sort of like staking out street parking places. Yes, marinas are private property, but often by dint of building on what is public land (creek bed) and the ability (practical locations, competing real estate value for condos etc., public access to shoreline, and wetlands restrictions) to build more marinas is limited. Ethically a gray area, perhaps, from a point of view. I'm glad I sail the Chesapeake Bay, where these conflicts are less.

Several of the boats I added lines to (very bad condition) so I am 100% sure of those. There are other signs; a crooked sail cover that never moves, dirt that would be wiped off if boarded. One has a family of ducks, another an osprey nesting on the fly bridge. Pretty sure, since the nest has been there for 10 years.

I'm retired, I sail a lot on all days of the week. I believe less than 25% ever move; the 50% estimate was a very conservative to allow for not being there constantly.

There is also the small number of boats on the water. On a typical day no more than 20-40 boats head out, and estimate based on day spent working at the dock. There are 1600 slips in the town. Of those 20-40 boats, 1/4 to 1/3 are either regular charters or commercial fishermen; they go out at least 2-5 times per week. Then there are regulars that you learn to recognize that go out 30-50 times each year. I know these boats on sight. That's another 1/3. The remaining ~ 10 boat are from the 1600 slips, or about 0.6% on a given day or about 2 days per year on the average.

So yeah, at least half never move. Maybe this is just my location. And yet slip rates in the Chesapeake remain pretty low, at least in the less urban areas, because there is so much shoreline and so many good creeks.

 

[pdqaltair]

The other observation is that with probably more than 2000 slips within the 5-mile easily visible radius when sailing, no matter how perfect the day, it is unusual to see more than about 5 boats at one time, and often fewer. Add a few fishing boats. Also, about 1/4 of the boats are often being shuttled to nearby marinas for delivery by paid crews; haul outs and maintenance. They are obvious as boats that take a bee line to the next town, about 3 miles to the south. These really should not be counted. Spring and fall these are often the great majority, since the next town to the south does not have hard storage or travel lifts.

 

[Capn Ken]

Puget Sound area has been 10-15% for who knows how many years. That seems ave increase. Then again, housing is averaging 10-15% with a few years at 20%. A house in 1984 you could get for 120K is now 1.5M. The house I bought for 60 is now 750K 3 bed 1 bath at 750 sq ft with a one car garage! A start house is 400-500K around here.
well said !

 

[Minnewaska]

except that it ties up a limited resource for people that would actually use it. Sort of like staking out street parking places.

Thats a really good point. Slips and moorings are blocked by non-users. This is driving pricing up, because more active users don’t have options. Block Island only allows property owners to have a mooring. Many pass it down between generations and some have no boat. While the harbor master can rent it overnight, it’s not fair that a local with a boat can’t keep their boat, because the wait list is a generation long. I think they’ve recently passed a rule that you can’t go too long without a boat. I met a guy in town who just bought a junker and tied it up.

no matter how perfect the day, it is unusual to see more than about 5 boats at one time

I get your point, but you’d never see me or many of our friends day sailing near the marina. When we head out, we go somewhere.

 

[OntarioTheLake]

So yeah, at least half never move. Maybe this is just my location

It’s not. I think many dock bound boats were paid for a long time ago, the owners have other interests, but it costs only five or ten grand a year to keep it just in case one wants to use it. I have a $129 weedwacker I could sell for $40, haven’t used it in a year, but don’t need the $40. Money is relative.

I just can’t understand what’s better to do than boating. Kids 1st birthday parties? Family gatherings on land, eating hot dogs? Mowing the lawn?

 

[mstern]

I just can’t understand what’s better to do than boating. Kids 1st birthday parties? Family gatherings on land, eating hot dogs? Mowing the lawn?

Wrong question. For many (most? all?) of us here, the answer is that nothing is better. However, even those of us who live within a mile of our marina and are retired (me), can't go whenever we want to. Ever since my open heart surgery two years ago, I promised the Admiral I wouldn't go out solo, so that means I have to find crew. And I really enjoy sailing more with others aboard anyway. On top of that, we have otherwise busy lives with other things going on. It's always something: three years ago, I hurt my back; two years ago, they decided I needed to be cut open; this year, my son and his family decided to move to California, so we had our 20 month old granddaughter with us for awhile while they packed and moved; we then spent two weeks in California helping them settle in and seeing other family there.

So while my fondest hope is that I can day sail at least a couple of days a week and take a week-long cruise, the stars haven't quite aligned yet to have those things happen in the same season. Don't judge the owners of the boats that you see sitting until you know why they are not being used when you are there.

 

[OntarioTheLake]

Don't judge the owners of the boats that you see sitting until you know why they are not being used when you are there.

I know most of them, if not well. Top reasons for not using the boat include using the cottage instead, wife would rather travel than boat, wife wants to do family stuff, kid's athletics schedules are a big one, golf, and then football season. I'm not counting those who can't use the boat for health reasons, that's obvious. So add it all up, and some boats may not get out even once all season. Going back to what I said, what's better than boating? To me, it's not junior's hopes to become a major league player, nor the lawn, nor golf, nor whatever. The missing boaters have different priorities that I don't understand, that's all.

 

[nicholas.tripp]

I'd rather not worry about what others are doing or aren't doing. I'm getting out on my boat and having a great time.

 

[zengator]

Puget Sound area has been 10-15% for who knows how many years. That seems ave increase. Then again, housing is averaging 10-15% with a few years at 20%. A house in 1984 you could get for 120K is now 1.5M. The house I bought for 60 is now 750K 3 bed 1 bath at 750 sq ft with a one car garage! A start house is 400-500K around here.

If a house that cost $120,000 in 1984 now sells for $1,500,000, the average annual increase is only 6.5%. A 10% annual increase over 40 years would mean the house is now $5.4M. (15% would mean $32.1M).

Compounding interest is not intuitive, but it is a [female dog].

Minnewaska made the correct observation: a 10% annual increase means your slip price is double what it was 7 years ago. 15% would be doubled in 5 years. Throw in the occasional 20% and it would have doubled even more quickly (which I doubt, but, hey, maybe so).

I don't think slip prices are increasing 10%-15% every year anywhere, at least not for more than a year or two (and even those, I suspect, are anomalies).

My slip (40' on the Manatee River near the mouth at the south end of Tampa Bay, includes flat fee for water & electricity) cost $467 when we acquired it in March 2020. They've increased the rate twice, most recently in January 2025. It's now $606.40. That is a 30% increase. But over (at least) five years. That comes out to a 5.41% average annual increase. Not horrible, especially considering the rate of inflation over the last couple years.

A nearby marina has increased from $13/ft in January 2017 to $26/ft currently. Yeah, that's 100% increase overall, but only (only?) 8.08% annually. It's a "luxury" joint compared to my bare-bones hole in the wall. Overall, I'm happy: less cost and better protection, although I don't have all the amenities they do.

I do agree with Drew: most of the boats don't move. I attribute it to inertia and unrealistic/unmet expectations: a lot of people buy a boat fully intending to use it frequently, but life and old habits intervene. They cling to the unused boat because the monthly cost isn't painful enough to make the effort to sell worthwhile (OtL's weedwhacker analogy is spot-on.) plus they still retain dreams of one day finally getting to use it they way they originally intended.

In some ways, I wish they would get out of the slips so the demand--and thus, hopefully, the price--could decline. Unfortunately, without sufficient demand, the property owners would turn the marina into a condo or some other development that returns better than charging rent to a bunch of cheap bastards who want to use wind & solar energy rather than pay for fuel. It's the restaurants, condos, waterfront mansions, and such that we're competing with.

 

[Capn Ken]

The problem, as I see it in my local area (Chesapeake Bay) is not the number of sailors, it is the number of people that want to own a boat ... and then just leave it sit and sit and sit. The marinas are more full, but the number of boats on the water on any day seem about half or less than 30 years ago and less than just a few years ago. The boat is a trophy.

I see the same thing in rock climbing. Gyms are popular, classes are popular (kids and adults) and read all about climbing, but the actual number of climbers on outdoor routes, particularly if the walk from the parking lot is more than 5 minutes, is far less than a decade or a few ago. As a climber, the increase in classes was a pain, but mostly they stay to easy stuff and the fab seems to be passing; the classes have moved to the gyms, where the weather is ... air conditioned. I've actually heard people complain that the holds on the outdoor cliffs aren't labeled.

People want to talk about adventure, but actual exposure to the elements, commitment, or risk are less pleasant than surfing the web (and here I am, but yesterday I was sailing and the day before climbing). In addition to the trophy factor, I'm sure this correlates with people buying bigger and bigger boats, which they soon realize they don't have the skills to singlehand since they never served a small boat apprenticeship. So they sit.

If only there was a way to gently push out boats that don't move. Nearly half of the boats in my marina have not been out this year, and half of those not in 5 years. But they pay the fee. You would think that would motivate them to sell or to store it on the hard, but no.

Dreams die hard . In trouble times ,like now .people can think ,wow !I've got a boat. I mean I don't use it ,but I know it's there and that gives me great comfort. Memories are priceless .

 

[Capn Ken]

To a lot of folks that boat has been in the family for a long time and knowing it is still there gives people hope and a good feeling not a bad price to pay.

 

[fodao]

I live in a marina during the season in western LIS. At least 50% of the boats, sail and power, rarely go out during the whole season, I'd say 5 times or less. I always wondered why people waste their money, but I think the argument above that "dreams die hard" is a good psychological explanation.
That probably also explains those boats that sit on the hard for years and the owner keeps paying the annual fee on the hope of one day splash her and sail over the horizon. For most, it never happens. Sad but true.

 

[Capn Ken]

We all have dreams , hope is eternal in the human breast !

 

[eherlihy]

Safe Harbor just announced that they will start changing an additional 3% on all credit card transactions. This is in addition to sales tax and the "Safe Harbor Environmental Fee" of 3% on all transactions.

Because they can...

 

[PGandW]

Most states forbid a credit card transaction fee. NC allows such a fee only for transactions under $20, most merchants have a lower threshold.

Fred W