There are a lot more waterfront centers opening like
Oakcliff Sailing Center
That keep money from being a big issue

I dont know of many people with and intrest in sailing that do not want to learn how the old fashioned way

 

My initial impression is that you cannot keep novice sailors safe with automation alone. The actual design of your concept would likely be intensly complex. What is a novice going to do when the eventual system failure occurs? Further, a remotely controlled 35' trimaran being operated from shore by someone who does not know how to sail, much less how to operate a remotely controlled 35' trimaran? That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And then there's the cost. Likely prohibitive.

You are trying to eliminate the instructor from the sailing education equation. There is no better teacher than someone who is experienced in the subject. Sending a rookie sailor out on his own in a fairly large, automated sailboat is, at best, probably not a good idea. And if you decide that an intructor is needed onboard for safety, why have an automated sailboat?

 

My initial impression is that you cannot keep novice sailors safe with automation alone. The actual design of your concept would likely be intensly complex. What is a novice going to do when the eventual system failure occurs? Further, a remotely controlled 35' trimaran being operated from shore by someone who does not know how to sail, much less how to operate a remotely controlled 35' trimaran? That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And then there's the cost. Likely prohibitive.

You are trying to eliminate the instructor from the sailing education equation. There is no better teacher than someone who is experienced in the subject. Sending a rookie sailor out on his own in a fairly large, automated sailboat is, at best, probably not a good idea. And if you decide that an intructor is needed onboard for safety, why have an automated sailboat?

Man, you are right on target. Conceptually, when you consider the weather, there are so many variables that come together to create any one scenario, that a super computer could not take all into account. If they could, our weather casters could give us an accurate report every day.

That said, if unexpected foul weather hits, and the automated system cannot predict and compensate, your're in trouble if you don't know what to do.

 

PUT THE DAM COMPUTER DOWN! and go sailing. sailing is about nothing being automatic.
We were out just fun sailing with a group of my sons freinds this weekend and there was one girl that was texting the whole time until my son started to unfurl the spinnaker and the sheet lifted up off the deck and hit her cell phone, the phone, well I don't think davy jones will be using it to text much. problem solved.

 

Given the numerous accidents with powered winches and windlass units and there need to have enough power to cause some pretty serious damage to the boat its not all that simple

 

Can you think of any other areas where you automate parts of a system and thus, the system as a whole is easier to learn? For example, do you think the best way to ride a bicycle, is to first learn to ride a autopilot-driven motorcycle, and then remove the autopilot, and then add petals? My daughter is currently trying to figure out standing and walking; I doubt it would have been easier for her if I started her off on a Segway.

My thinking is that automation disconnects the learner from the system and makes the system more mysterious and harder to learn. Instead, it seems that the best way to learn a system is (1) select the system to be within the capabilities of the learner as much as possible, and (2) carefully choose the scenarios in which it's used, but otherwise immerse the learning as much as possible in the system. In other words, small boat, simple controls, cooperative weather.

With such a setup you can go from completely oblivious about sailing to having a pretty good idea what to with halyards, sheets, and the tiller, in one day. Three days and you should be comfortable sailing a small boat on your own in light winds and protected waters. Learning to sail is not actually hard.

Do you think learning on an automated boat can improve on that? Which of those components -- halyard, sheets, tiller -- do you recommend automating on a 25-foot sailboat and thus make it easier for the student to learn about the other components?

I don't think that the difficulty of helmsmanship or sail trim is the thing that makes sailing inaccessible. It's the expense and the time required. If you want to make sailing more accessible in your area, start a sail-training co-op. If you're looking for a business that you can develop and then sell, I don't think you'll find it here.

Of course there's only one way to find out for sure... far be it for me to be the nay-sayer that prevents you from trying out your business idea.

 

I can think of many systems where automation or elimination of some parts to begin with helps. As for your bicycle example, I didn't start on a 2 wheeler where I had to learn how to pedal, balance and steer all at once. First I learned how to steer and then to pedal and then to balance. Automatic cars are so much easier to learn how to drive than the stick shifts. There are many many examples where you start off learning with some kind of assistance.

In any case, sailing equivalent of this is perhaps to start with smaller boats, even sailing dinghies. And automated 35' foot trimaran doesn't seem like a feasible solution although I would love to have such a system on my boat as an aid, not to replace an experienced sailor to help me.

 

To the OP: Have you actually sailed a trimaran? Have you sailed anything? Have you even tuned a simple autopilot?

If your answer is yes to any of these things, I doubt you would be seriously considering doing what you are proposing.

If this is a purely theoretical exercise for a class that you're taking, have at it. Academia is filled with frivolous ideas that will never see the light of day. But the actual implementation of this is fraught with difficulties and potentially fatal safety issues. You'd never get liability coverage for an actual business based on this concept.

 

To me this is simple to answer and that answer would be NO

When taking passengers for hire the boat must have a USCG licensed Capt, on board.

 

Hi,

first of all I'd like to thank everyone for good input and discussion! I was a bit skeptic about automation and was thinking it could really detach the user from the actual hands-on learning experience. However I will still continue researching if automation could be useful in one way or another, because one of my goals is to make sailing more accessible. But perhaps there are other means to accomplish this. To RhythmDoctor: yes this is a study, not a real-world project.

If we still think in terms of automation, are there any parts that could actually be automated, say, for both the beginner and novice?

-> My initial idea of automation in terms of sail operation would function based on: a) wind direction, b) wind speed and c) ship heading. So not relying on weather information. What other information one would require? How would one go about sensing pressures caused on hull(s) by waves if that data is needed?

Thanks again for the discussion. My background is very, very limited in terms of sailing (on the other hand, that's why I'm asking these questions..). I've planned a sailing trip with my friend's 20':er, so looking forward to draw as much as possible from own experiences.

 

There is a lot of stuff out there on autonomous sailboats but not much has gotten past the small size

 

No need to measure pressure on the hull. No point. You would need to sense rudder angle, depth, boat speed on the water. Those are pretty standard equipment. Add to them: Gyros would help measure heeling, quick bearing changes due to gusts. More of a concern is how to handle sail trim??? Pressure taps on cloth to determine stall is not really applicable. The system could be set to do a pre-calibrated sail trim based on wind speed, boat speed and bearing but that would need to be fine tuned by crew.

 

It is possible to automate a simple yacht. There is a project underway to build small approximately 1 1/2 meter sailing craft capable of crossing the Atlantic without anyone on board. I saw a prototype of one of these and it was really amazing.

There was also a project done in Germany where a 10 meter racing sailing yacht was purposely constructed so that it could be fully instrumented so that all movement and all corresponding forces on the yacht could be measured and documented.

But both of those experiments are very different than creating a training vessel which was fully instrumented.

Having taught at least 100 people how to sail over the years, ideally, a good training vessel is very responsive; so that the student can make an adjustment and feel the change. It allows the beginner to sense the cause and effect of each action so it becomes ingrained in the student's mind what any particular change in sail trim or course is likely to do to the behavior of the boat.

Although somewhat contradictory, the ideal training boat should not scare the daylights out of a beginner either.

Ideal training boats for adults have evolved over time, but these days they typically look something like a Colgate 26, J-80, Sonar 23, or J-22, in other words a 23 foot (7 meter) to 26 foot (8 meter), fin keel, spade rudder, fractionally rigged, moderately light displacement sloop with a tiller and a large cockpit.

Boats this size allow a small number of students per teacher, and having the treacher right there is mostly what it takes to alleviate, or at least minimize the beginner's fears. This is a great venue to allow someone to experience sailing easily and to teach someone sailing basics quickly.

Then there is the question about using Trimarrans for traing purposes. I really like trimarrans for certain purposes. I have owned one and have designed one, and really got a kick out of them. But Trimarrans make a terrible platform to teach sailing, and make a really awful candidate for automation. For their own safety at sea they need to be light enough to disburse the force of the wind by accellerating rather than heeling (or have a very small sail area or a combination of both).

Trimarrnans come in several flavors but taken individually none make sense as a automated training boat.

There are extremely high performance trimarrans. They are very fast, but take a huge amount of skill to sail well. Sailed properly they can win an America's Cup or break a record circumnavigating the world, but these are bleeding edge designs which take extremely high levels of skill to even keep upright and together.

There are mid-range racer-cruisers like the Corsairs, Farriers, Telstars and Dragonflys. These give up a little performance for a higher degree of safety, but they would still be a pretty poor platform for teaching sailing since there is a less visceral connection between cause and effect, and they still require a pretty high level of skill to sail safely in changing conditions. They would also be pretty hard to automate as well. Their inherent speed means that there are comparatively smaller changes in measurable apparent wind angles making accurate approximations of instanteous true wind directions harder to detect, and issues of gradient effect when accellerating out of a tack or gybe more significant. If the computer gets it wrong, there is a higher chance of breaking the boat or hurting a student. But also, to some extent, the faster motion of a trimarran and the need to travel more distance from tramp to tramp more quickly, makes it harder for a student to know where and how to move around the boat, and without an instructor saying "now" and pointing it can be confusing. (I almost lost my first wife overboard on several tacks when she was trying to get off the tramps.)

Then there older style cruising tris. They are more docile and forgiving, but they generally did not tack all that reliably and so there would need to be a computer regime that could detect being in irons, reversing the sails and helm as the boat began moving backwards. But even if these an older style tri could be automated, but they would be the worst of the bunch as a training venue and so not really suited to your objectives.

You say this is an academic exercise in industrial design and service: I would suggest that in any design process, it is helpful to understand what has been done before and why, And only then try to define what you want to improve about the current solutions, which should lead you torwards your solution.

In this case, you appear to have started out chosing a solution; one that is an improbable solution to the problem, which may have emerged out of a misunderstanding of the design problem and the limitations of the currently available technology, and are trying hard to find a problem to fit your solution to.

In reality Trimarrans and automation are wildly expensive technology (that cannot really solve the scariest part of being a beginner on a boat, colisions and docking manuevers) that make little sense if your goal is ease a beginner into sailing. You might instead look at some of the graduated solutions such as the Laser radial rig. Or how junior sailing programs take total novices and get them aclaimated to sailing and then work them up as their skills develop.

You might also look at the O'Pen Bic YouTube - ‪O'pen BIC, Energized Sailing‬‏ which is just one approach, albeit a pretty aggressive one.....

Respectfully,
Jeff

 

the scariest part of being a beginner on a boat: colisions and docking manuevers

Here here.

 

I'd love to see the "automation" algorithms for:

COLREGS
Winch Overides
Anchoring
A Leaking Stuffing Box
A Jammed Furler
Flaking a sail
A failed seacock
A plugged head
Engine over heat
Plugged engine intake
Picking up a mooring

 

cost... the cost of this boat would be prohibitive...

 

Jeff, thank you for your insightful post. Here are some of my thoughts..

Ideal training boats for adults have evolved over time, but these days they typically look something like a Colgate 26, J-80, Sonar 23, or J-22, in other words a 23 foot (7 meter) to 26 foot (8 meter), fin keel, spade rudder, fractionally rigged, moderately light displacement sloop with a tiller and a large cockpit.

Thanks, will look into these!

Then there is the question about using Trimarrans for traing purposes. I really like trimarrans for certain purposes. I have owned one and have designed one, and really got a kick out of them. But Trimarrans make a terrible platform to teach sailing, and make a really awful candidate for automation. For their own safety at sea they need to be light enough to disburse the force of the wind by accellerating rather than heeling (or have a very small sail area or a combination of both).
Trimarrnans come in several flavors but taken individually none make sense as a automated training boat.

It seems like the concencus is against having a trimaran as the platform. I originally thought it could prove as a stable learning platform but this doesn't seem to be the case. My brainstorming sessions also included having electrically powered water jets (around 50 kW) on each ama to provide agile movement (eg. turning the ship in full stand still) and even elastic solar panel fitted sail ( as I was considering the ship could be a motorsailer. But these ideas can be dealt with later, if at all. The project is about future of boating, so I have some freedom over realistic engineering constraints, although I'd like to come up with a realistic benefit offering and not just throw wild ideas around. Of course I may have to abandon the idea of automation or this whole learning/teaching scheme; there are propably a wealth of other venues to choose from in this project, if one just digs deep enough..

You say this is an academic exercise in industrial design and service: I would suggest that in any design process, it is helpful to understand what has been done before and why, And only then try to define what you want to improve about the current solutions, which should lead you torwards your solution.

In this case, you appear to have started out chosing a solution; one that is an improbable solution to the problem, which may have emerged out of a misunderstanding of the design problem and the limitations of the currently available technology, and are trying hard to find a problem to fit your solution to.

You are correct about the problem definition. This project is about a product or a service or both, and I have just begun working on it. This automated sailer concept with renting possibility is in my opinion a good allencompassing idea because it combines both (product + service) with the possibility to later fork into pure product or pure service concept depending on the research. This is not how ID problem solving usually progresses, but I have previously got good results by giving a rough concept idea and getting feedback on it. It is one way to "plot your position" in terms of finding the problem that you want to eventually solve. This thread is imo a good example of that

In the ideal world, it would be rewarding to be able to solve some long-standing, difficult and wicked problem.

In reality Trimarrans and automation are wildly expensive technology (that cannot really solve the scariest part of being a beginner on a boat, colisions and docking manuevers) that make little sense if your goal is ease a beginner into sailing. You might instead look at some of the graduated solutions such as the Laser radial rig. Or how junior sailing programs take total novices and get them aclaimated to sailing and then work them up as their skills develop.

Collisions and docking, those are indeed good points. Perhaps a solid part of my design process would be to actually attend one of these basic training courses and document everything.

 

Actually, come to think of it, an automated docking computer would be impressive, useful, super-marketable, and probably much more within reach than an all-purpose automated sailboat.

 

So when do we quit calling it sailing and begin to call it riding?

Jerry

 

Wow, why so much emotion against automation?

I would welcome automation as a docking aid if it is going to help me get out and get back in safely in more complicated situations or with less crew. For those against it, I bet you are not sailing into your slip. What if your engine quit. Can you go in under sail? I don't buy the hardcore sailor stuff here. There are some who are purists and don't even have an engine aboard. I respect that. But the rest of us are already welcoming conveniences. Many of us would consider the auto pilot a blessing.

So, it doesn't have to be all automated or nothing. It would be nice to get help when needed and turn the thing off and go manual when wanted.

 

Concept is overly complex, probably overly expensive, and unnecessary.

All that's required to grasp sailing is to be shown a few basics and then spend an afternoon on a Sunfish.

There are numerous reasons why the overwhelming majority of boats sold are powerboats.
-people want instant gratification...no learning curve
-men are the main boat buyers and they tend to want POWER
(sailboat names are often Pegasus, Windrider, Summer Dream,
Wind Shadow....powerboats are often Dominator, Intimidator, Bad Attitude, etc.

-People tend to be sheep...the crowd buys powerboats so they buy a powerboat
-people like to go fast
-most power boaters will tell you they have a powerboat so they can get places quicker. IMHO they're mostly too dumb to figure out that 99% of the time it's about spending time on the water, not getting somewhere.
-people tend to make their purchase based on WHO THE HECK KNOWS WHAT...when was the last time you saw a car ad that actually had useful information in it?

I think the automated training concept would fall flat from both a technological and dollars aspect, as well as a psychological aspect. Most people want powerboats...no amount of auto-winches, etc. will get them to consider sailing.

 

I think the automated training concept would fall flat from both a technological and dollars aspect, as well as a psychological aspect. Most people want powerboats...no amount of auto-winches, etc. will get them to consider sailing.

Thanks for the bulleted list, lots of good input and points there. What kind of sailing boat or motorsailer would you think would be appealing to most people, if any? Remember, the solution does not have to contain any kind of automation at all, that was just one initial consideration.

 

If you do not have to know theory and all you have to do is push a button to run a program then it is automation. You will be so screwed when it fails, and it will at the worst time. Just talking from experience.

Jerry

 

Please note that even though automation was proposed, its purpose was to allow beginners to approach sailing and then as skills evolve, disable the automation. So far in just a few days there have been good opinions and good rationale.

Based on the discussion(s) going on in this thread, I have made the following observations:

- Complete 100% automation is not good, because..

* it detaches user from the actual doing
* may not bring appeal to sailing for new users
* does not appeal to people who already can sail
* is not a good training tool
+ (you can learn the basics in 1-3 days?)
* at time of failure, can leave crew in distress
* potentially too expensive
* can cause hazardous situations on-board (things start moving and you're on the way)


- Good learning enviroment has..

* a human instructor
* boat small enough
* direct, very sensitive navigation equipment to show how different actions affect the ship


What is your take on a system which *suggests* actions to the user? That would leave the performance to the user. Perhaps the system could somehow highlight which devices the user should attend to (this could be turned off naturally) in various situations. Maybe a suggestive system would work for a user who knows the basics but wants to learn more on their own.

Also, based on some research it seems like beginners would often opt for a 25' vessel, saying it's not too small but then again is quite responsive as well. Of course the use of small instructional sailing boats is well justified..