SailNet Community banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
Joined
·
4,526 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Needless to say our main and #2 genoa are more than a little tired after 30,000 miles (and the main was not new to start). We have gotten two quotes including recommendations on cloth weight and the weights are quite different.
The Doyle Caribbean agent is recommending 9.77 oz cloth for both the #130 and the furling main. North is recommending around 8.2 oz for the main and 7.7 oz for the jib - in both cases we are talking standard dacron, not the fancy stuff. The North jib we are replacing is 7.7 oz. The main is 475 sq ft and the genoa 600 sq ft.

The Doyle weights seem excessive but they are the ones they recommend for a fairly heavy 45 footer. We probably will not be spending much time in the Caribbean and lighter air performance will be an issue in the US Northeast and Great Lakes. I assume that lighter cloth would also be a bit cheaper. BTW, the Doyle price is almost $3000 cheaper than North for the two sails (Barbados manufacture for one and Sri Lanka for the other).

Your thoughts?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
845 Posts
Do you plan to go back out circumnavagating? Or are you going to stay in the great lakes and coastal cruise?
I would go with the lighter fabric if you are going to spend some time in the great lakes.

If you are going back out you may wish to go with what they offer. Then again, you made it 30k with your present sails. So why go heavier?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,889 Posts
I'm not a pro on sail construction, but that's not a small difference. It makes me wonder if there are other critical difference between those sails or the durability of their respecitve manufacturer's cloth.

We exclusively cruise (other than racing the random boat heading in the same direction), so I favor having a more durable sail over the one that might be lightest, fastest or whatever. I want to be able to get home in an unexpected gale and worry less about blowing the sail out.

I've actually been meaning to get a light wind sail and just haven't gotten around to it.
 

·
Learning the HARD way...
Joined
·
7,501 Posts
Needless to say our main and #2 genoa are more than a little tired after 30,000 miles (and the main was not new to start). We have gotten two quotes including recommendations on cloth weight and the weights are quite different.
The Doyle Caribbean agent is recommending 9.77 oz cloth for both the #130 and the furling main. North is recommending around 8.2 oz for the main and 7.7 oz for the jib - in both cases we are talking standard dacron, not the fancy stuff. The North jib we are replacing is 7.7 oz. The main is 475 sq ft and the genoa 600 sq ft.

The Doyle weights seem excessive but they are the ones they recommend for a fairly heavy 45 footer. We probably will not be spending much time in the Caribbean and lighter air performance will be an issue in the US Northeast and Great Lakes. I assume that lighter cloth would also be a bit cheaper. BTW, the Doyle price is almost $3000 cheaper than North for the two sails (Barbados manufacture for one and Sri Lanka for the other).

Your thoughts?
Hmmm...

You got 30K miles out of a used sail using 7.7oz cloth. You are not planning a circumnavigation, or traveling to places where getting repairs may be tricky, but are planning on coastal cruising in lighter air locales... And you are considering going with heavier cloth?:confused:
 

·
islander bahama 24
Joined
·
1,842 Posts
I have a near new number two off of a c&c 40 8oz never actually used I could sell for 1500 made by watts customer got new kevlar for transpac as soon as he bought the boat the sail was never actually flown
 

·
Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
Joined
·
4,526 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for the comments. I checked similar sized sails at Bacon's and basically none were as heavy as Doyle are suggesting. I think I will drop at least one weight down (8.77 oz) for each sail.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,067 Posts
Stability of the weave which lessens the amount of permanent stretch is probably THE most important consideration. Suggest you discuss with your chosen sailmaker the selection of a 'prime' dacron sail cloth such as Contender™ or Challenge™ ... even at a lower weight.

AND .... with most dacron mainsails the as-raised shape is very dependent on the luff boltrope. Boltropes shrink over time and such is the PRIMARY cause of 'bagginess' and 'blown out' mainsails. Discuss with your sailmaker a means of providing an extra-length of boltrope rope that extends past the luff sleeve and is sewn ('stored') to the headboard --- so when you eventually need to adjust (ease) that boltrope all YOU (or your sailmaker) have to do is cut the sail twine binding, slide the 'stored' boltrope into the sleeve (to restore the luff dimension) and resew (twine, sail needle and palm). Otherwise if extra-length of boltrope isnt already 'stored' and ready to go, a boltrope adjustment/replacement can be quite costly. If already stored, its a one hour job.
On any sailboat that has a woven dacron main that boltrope 'should' be readjusted probably every 200-300 hours of HARD sailing. Just be sure to keep the exact as-lofted OEM luff dimension handy so you can exactly 'restore' to the proper as-lofted luff dimension.
Once a boltrope shrinks, the sail will be draft-aft, excess draft, ... the boat will be SLOW and will aggressively heel-over. A simple 'easing' of that boltrope will usually 95% restore that as-designed shape back to OEM.

Other. On my cruising boats I always apply 'over-the-top' leech purse lines - the leech line extends to a cheek block mounted on the headboard ... and the line continues in a sleeve down along the LUFF; at each reef position along the luff the line is exposed and has its own jam cleat. This enables the leech tension to be controlled from the base of the Mast (or run back to the cockpit) - instead of hanging overboard with one hand hanging onto 'something', the other hand 'futzing' with a damn leech line while one leg is 'dangling' over the water.

Other #2. I also like small permanent installed 'intermediate' battens between the top, 2nd, and third battens --- helps to keep the leech shape longer in a sail with big roach.

hope this helps.
 

·
Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
Joined
·
4,526 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Rich, the main is furling so your comments, which makes a lot of sense don't really apply. The Hood main that is being replaced does not even have a bolt rope> it is set up like a genoa with a foil inside the mast that the sail goes in. Leach line over the top, which I had on my last boat is a good idea.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,067 Posts
understand about the furling main; but, still discuss the possibility of a 'quality' sail cloth such as Challenge™ or Contender™. Negotiate !!!! ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,309 Posts
You might also be a good candidate for Ullmans Tri axis laminate. Similar cost to Dacron, ok, so 5-10% more. But the overall wt of the cloth is slightly lighter, and works better in liter wind environments, like Puget sound where I am.....Furls tighter according to a couple of folks I know with furlers. I can not vouch personally, as I do not have furling sails. I do like how my 140 works.

Not sure on longevity.......at least as of yet.... but so far what few reviews I have seen show it to be doing pretty good.

Another thought for you to mull around.

Marty
 

·
Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
Joined
·
4,526 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
They use Contender cloth.
 

·
baDumbumbum
Joined
·
1,142 Posts
Suggest you discuss with your chosen sailmaker the selection of a 'prime' dacron sail cloth such as Contender™ or Challenge™ ... even at a lower weight.
AFAIK, nearly every name-brand dacron sail made uses either Contender or Challenger fabric -- they are the global manufacturers. Each company offers a range of polyester fabrics, from less-expensive cruise dacrons (balanced weave, roughly equal crimp in warp and weft) to fabrics intended for high- or low-aspect sails or radial cuts. There may also be variations in resin types and finishing. But if you request your sailmaker use Challenge or Contender, they will probably look at you and say, "Duh. Those are the only companies that make dacron sailcloth." You need to ask more specific questions about which Challenge or Contender fabric they are using, and why.:)

Doyle Carib has an excellent reputation, but I agree their weights seem heavy. Prolly thinking of Xmas trades in the Windwards.;) I'd be curious whether fabric weight might complicate mainsail furling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,220 Posts
Just wondering why you are only looking at Dacron. Admittedly there is huge variation in the qualities of various Dacron and laminates may make no sense for a relatively heavy cruising boat but you may want to look at Hood Vektron or like fabrics. The upgrade is not too dear and shape, creep and other issues are much less of a concern. As a round the world veteran I would assume you sail well and hard but take excellent care of your sails. These fabrics have very good performance with life expectancies about the same as Dacron while maintaining good performance even when near the end of their useful life. End up with a stronger sail and less weight
 

·
Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
Joined
·
4,526 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
There is a substantial difference in price (at least for me, ~50%) and for that one can cruise for a few months. Not sure that I take excellent care of my sails. The current sails have been royally abused and kept on keeping on. For me, the slight difference in speed from having superior sails is a lot less than one come from picking the best routing and reefing up and down to take advantage of wind changes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,220 Posts
Wow-50% !!! for me when spec'd it for three sails ( main, solent, genny) worked out to ~20% difference. Figured should get 10-15y so not huge money. Already caught the main on the supplemental reefing hook by the gooseneck and put a hole in it reefing by myself at night and not paying attention. Now have surgical drain hose over them so should not happen again. My bad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
845 Posts
Killarney,
Keep us posted on what your selection is with details as my rig is similiar to yours. Very interested.

Outbound,
See your point; is it really worth the extra pennies? Maybe in a couple years a the tech will be a little better with better (longterm) cruising sails.
 

·
Senior Moment Member
Joined
·
13,290 Posts
Bruce, you and June just finished going all the way around - you're supposed to be telling US the answer to questions like this. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: killarney_sailor

·
Registered
Joined
·
511 Posts
The Doyle Caribbean agent is recommending 9.77 oz cloth for both the #130 and the furling main.

Your thoughts?
I just got a Doyle sail. That 9.77 sounds like their Bluewater line. I explained to my local Doyle loft that I was heading to the tropics for a year and he recommended the Durasail line which is lighter.

Having said that, there seems to be alot to be said for getting the cheapest (of decent quality) that you find. You are going to lose sail shape much quicket than they fall apart.

Replace cheaper sails more often imho.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,309 Posts
Hence why there seem to be two of us recommending going to some of the lower priced laminates if you will. 10-15% more for the Ullman I am talking about. Maybe 3% loss due to stretch per season, vs 10 for Dacron.......that last year or two will be doozy's for laminates.....but light wind sailing is better!

The broker that sold me my boat, has a morgan 41?!?!?! any way, he replace a Dacron 135 with the Ullman 155 tri axis laminate, the 150 rolled up tighter than the Dacron, slightly lighter cloth, sails much better in lighter winds, works better reefed.........

I said it a few years ago, laminates will be taking over for Dacron at some point in time, just as Dacron took over from cotton. where in the take over are we?!?!? not sure, could be farther than it appears. I see more and more sailmakers recommending a laminate sail over Dacron.

Marty
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top