[4arch]

My fiance and I just purchased a 1982 Lippincott 30. The previous owners used her extensively for cruising the Chesapeake and we'll continue doing the same but we'd also like to do bay or around the buoy races on an occasional basis and eventually do some coastal cruising beyond the bay. The boat is fairly well equipped when it comes to creature comforts so we'd like to put any money we're able to spend on upgrades into improving her sailing performance and increasing options for different wind conditions.

She is a masthead rig and came with a dacron main and a 150% roller furling dacron genoa both in good condition. She has a fixed backstay, no spin or additional jib halyards, and an adjustable whisker pole. I haven't determined whether she has a sheve for a spin halyard.

I've made a list below of rigging modifications/sail inventory upgrades I could make over the next few years and I'd like to get some feedback as to how to prioritize them and what to add to or subtract from the list (keeping in mind that my budget will only allow the top three or so).

Purchase 135% RF genoa.
Purchase 110% jib.
Purchase stom jib.
Add asymmetrical spinnaker plus rigging.
Add poled spinnaker plus rigging.
Make backstay adjustable.

Thanks for your input!

 

[JohnRPollard]

Congrats on the new boat!

You'll probably get some diverse advice on this one.

Having sailed the Chesapeake for the past two decades -- from your list I would either:

Option 1
1) First purchase the asym chute.
2) Next I would get the 110% jib.
3) See what your priorities are after that

OR

Option 2
1) Get the spinnaker/whisker pole, and use it to pole out the 150% genoa on the downwind
2) Next get the 110% jib
3) See what your priorities are after that

Option 1 would be the better route if you really want to fly a spinnaker immediately. Option 2 would still allow you to race, only you'd be in the non-spinnaker division. It would then allow you to add a conventional chute later, with the pole hardware already in hand.

The storm jib would more than likely sit in the locker collecting grime, never used.

Speaking of lockers, 30-footers don't normally have loads of space to store unused sail inventory, so consider carefully where you'd store the unused sails and how often would you really use them. A 110% jib, that can be roller reefed to a 90% or so, will take you through a lot of wind on the Bay. When it's truly blowing a gale, you'll be safely snugged in a cove.

 

[tommays]

In way back when time i could only afford a 100% jib and main on my J24 and did just fine in jib and main races and when it got real windy spanked a lot of folks who had the need to use that big jib they spent all the money on

Adding a poled spinnaker plus rigging then requires at least 5 people on board to use it effectively and SAFE

Of course now i have a full sail inventory and it pretty much uses up ALL the free space below BUT we pretty much only use the boat to race


And buying race sails is the ultimate money flush you will also get stuck with a harsher rating as you add stuff that may well NOT pay off

 

[smackdaddy]

Hey tom - go CHECK OUT THIS THREAD and give the dude some feedback on his new/old J24.

Have the 24s had any keel issues like the 80s?

 

[PalmettoSailor]

No way do you need all those sails for your proposed agenda. The air you need to be prepared for on the bay, is either light to non existant, or blowing in the mid twenties. Any more and you'll stay at the dock if you have a choice and will be motoring if you don't. In the low end you'll want the 150 or you'll be motoring.

I say add either a spinaker (your choice of Asym/Sym depends on your comfort deploying a sym with your regular crew) or use your whisker pole for sailing off wind (for PHRF non spin, your pole is limited to your "J" length) and save the rest of your dough. I'm willing to bet you'd never use a 135 since you have a 150 in good shape. I'm further willing to bet you'd never hoist the storm jib on the bay except if you wanted the practice, so I'd wait until I was for sure headed offshore to consider buying one. There are days when you might use the 110, but you could most likely get by just as well rolling up some of the 150. I'd focus on choosing a method for sailing off the wind and investing in that, then seeing if you still felt like you needed the rest of the inventory.

The boat I race on (Tartan 40) runs a 150 all the time, and I've yet to be on the boat when a reef was put in. I don't race my boat but I also run a 150 all the time though I need one reef in the main at about 18-20 knts going to windward. I've never wanted for a smaller headsail except when we make a sloppy tack and I have to grind that thing in.

 

[painkiller]

I'll second Mr. Pollard's opinion and will point out that changing a furling genoa when the breeze picks up is a PITA. You'll probably end up living with that rolled-up 150 unless you later decide just to swap it permanently with the 110. Unless, of course, you're racing but you'll probably pick your jib at the dock anyway.

I carry a main, 140% genoa, and asymmetric on the Bay and that rig is fine until the "breeze" gets below 5 when the engine magically turns on. I've been toying with getting a mast track, pole, and lifts, etc., but that's mostly because I like to tweak things and I want to improve my DDW sailing. I haven't raced my boat (yet?).

 

[zz4gta]

In the order I would do them.

Purchase 110% jib.

Very good sail to have and will help keep you sailing fast in the colder months. Furled up 150's suck in 15-20kts. It screws up the most important part of the sail, the first 1/3 of it.

Make backstay adjustable.

A simple tackle should make this easy. Might need a rigger to do the swages to shorten your existing, but the rest you can do yourself.

Add poled spinnaker plus rigging.

Yep, this way you can use the pole to win some jib and main races before you plop down the big money on a chute.

Add asymmetrical spinnaker.

You will get killed in w/l races w/ an assy. You need a symetrical kite to sail deeper in that boat. Assy's belong on sprit boats that surf/plain, and cruisers who don't race.

Purchase 135% RF genoa.

Don't bother until you get regular crew and know how to do an inside change, an outside change and a tack change. That's the only time you'll use a 135%. Most of the time you'll rig the #1 (155) or the #3 (110 or 100). Then when you get out there, you'll realize you have too little or too much sail up and need to do a headsail change, and you'll want a #2. I don't know too many people who start out racing and say "you know what, it feels exactly like 14-17 kts today with no gusts." Point is, most of the time you'll use a 155 on the bay. In the fall/winter months, the 110 really comes in handy. I see you using a #2 about 5 times in the next 3 years.

Purchase stom jib.

Save that for when you get out of the bay. And pray, to whoever you want, that you will never have to use it. I see using a storm jib in the bay probaby 1 time in the next 5 years or more. And that's only if you deliberately go out in a storm.

 

[chef2sail]

We have a 150 and a 135, both furler sails. I would suggest the 135 as it can easily be reefed to a 110 with little loss of shape.

We use a heaver weight 135 a lot in April and October/ November for the heavier air the cold winds carry which easily can overpower the 150.

Dave

 

[Sabreman]

You have two very different things going on here. Cruising and Racing. I understand your dilemma because I'm there too and have just started casually racing after taking about 20 years off. There is no way that my 25 year old Sabre is a racer but even with our rating (144) we get massacred in Gov Cup because we have a 130%, Storm sail, and Asymmetrical Chute. The path that I'm taking is:

1. Replace the 130% with a 150% or 155% with foam luff to help when reefing it. As others have said, on the Bay, a 150% is the way to go. We'll rig the 130% (maybe) in October when the wind is in the upper teens or higher.

2. Add a symmetrical spin. We were passed by similar boats with symmetrical chutes when DDW. Off the wind, we passed them. Asymmetricals suck down wind. zz4gta is right.

My recommendation to you is:

1. Get a new 150% dacron (stay away from laminates unless you win the lottery) with foam luff.

2. Get an asymmetrical chute with sock for cruising. The sock is a joy to use.

3. Get a symmetrical chute for racing with all the gear.

For the asymmetrical cruising chute, there are a number of really good used sail sites. Get photos of the sail before buying.

 

[4arch]

Thank you everyone for your responses. I'm going to take everyone's thoughts into consideration as I move forward. Once I get out and do some sailing in various wind conditions and at various points of sail it will become more clear what the priorities need to be.

Before I buy any sails my first priority is to remove 27 years of paint buildup from the bottom and to refair the keel.

 

[TSOJOURNER]

For August, get a 200% Genoa

I run a 150 thru September then put the 135 on for Oct and Nov.

 

[Sabreman]

4arch - I just did the bottom job this spring and while a lot of work, it wasn't that bad. Took about 20 hours; worth saving the $1800+ a yard would have charged. See my post in the following link or PM me if you'd like details.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/58247-grinder-sander-recommendation.html

 

[painkiller]

Even though this was 4arch's thread, I learned a lot. I never thought to have different headsails for different seasons. Makes sense, though! I'll add a few headsails to my ever-growing wish-list... "But honey, all I have is a summer wardrobe..."

 

[zz4gta]

Before I buy any sails my first priority is to remove 27 years of paint buildup from the bottom and to refair the keel.

Good idea, you can have a 700 hp motor, but with 4 flat tires, you don't go real fast.

 

[JohnRPollard]

OR

Option 2
1) Get the spinnaker/whisker pole, and use it to pole out the 150% genoa on the downwind
2) Next get the 110% jib
3) See what your priorities are after that.

Just a clarification...

By "Get the spinnaker/whisker pole" I meant just the pole.

The idea behind Option 2 was to give racing a try in the non-spin (aka "cruising") division before investing in the spinnaker. Even if you later decide to pass on the racing, you will not have wasted any money by getting the whisker/spin pole, since it can be used to good effect with the 150 genoa on downwind legs.

 

[Jeff_H]

I agree with ZZ's suggestions but would add a couple other thoughts here.

1) I would suggest trying to get the 110% jib made for as wide a wind speed range as you can (5 to 20 knots of wind). To do this I would suggest that you get the 110% jib cut fuller than usual, designed for a bit more headstay sag than you would want in heavy air and get it cut in kevlar laminate, panel construction. This will accomplish a lot on a boat like the Lippincott as follows:
-Kevlar panel cut sails are not that much more expensive than a similar strength dacron sail but the kevlar laminate will last a lot longer with a good shape than a dacron sail, which will bag up after a few season's of heavier air use.
-Since kevlar stretches less than dacron it can be cut slightly fuller and still hold an acceptable shape in high winds especially when combined with increased backstay, outhaul and halyard tension.
-Because it can be cut with a fuller shape the kevlar will offer better performance at the lighter end of the wind range.
-Since kevlar is lighter than dacron it will hold its flying shape into much lighter winds.
-Normally fat cut jibs hurt pointing abilities but the real limiting factor on pointing ability on an inefficient design like the Lippincott is its keel and rudder design so the added pointing ability of a flat cut jib will never be used and will hurt your VMG.

This will be a great cruising sail for most of the year and very good high wind and winter racing sail.

2) An assymetical chute would be a waste of money on a boat with like the Lippincott. They lack the kinds of speed that means that the best VMG's result in the apparent winds getting forward of the beam most of the time. A symmetrical chute will get a huge amount of use cruising and racing.

3) The Lippincott 30 is a terribly frustrating boat to race non-spinnaker. It offers decent upwind ability relative to its rating, but is dismal off the wind except in mid-range conditions that are rare when racing on the Bay.

Jeff

 

[JohnRPollard]

I was about to comment to the effect "Guys, he needs the pole before he can fly that symmetric chute!"

Then I re-read the o.p. and realized he has one already. Somehow I read that as just the opposite. Duh!!

So I will reformulate my recommendation:

Option 1: If you are dead-set on racing, get the 110 and the symmetric spinnaker.

Option 2: If you are not sure you will like the racing, and since you already have a pole for the 150, again, you can try non-spinnaker division for a while. Regardless, it would be good to have a second headsail like the 110 in your quiver for non-spinnaker racing or cruising.

Since you already have the pole, when and if you do get a spinnaker (whether for racing or cruising) I would suggest that you go with a symmetric chute.

 

[4arch]

I just did the bottom job this spring and while a lot of work, it wasn't that bad. Took about 20 hours; worth saving the $1800+ a yard would have charged.

I'd be willing to do just about any other project on a boat myself (and in fact I'm fine doing the fairing, barrier coating, and painting) but for me it would be well worth the cost of the soda blasting to not have to deal with the time, mess and danger of trying to remove the paint myself.