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Kevin
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Discussion Starter #1
sailing a C30 is just like a Sunfish, right? :laugher

I'll be taking lessons in the Spring hopefully. I can't wait to learn on a bigger boat. My goal is to work my way up to a 25' before I seal the deal on a boat. I'm looking towards 25-30' boats after I get a year or two of experience and training. Any suggestions for boats similar to the c30 would be great. I'm looking for a nice daysailer and weekender.

Thanks!
 

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Chastened
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4,862 Posts
The difference between a dinghy and a heavy keelboat, is that everything happens more slowly, but has more force behind it. A heavy keel boat is less sensitive to every little puff and shift that would require instant correction on a dinghy.

Generally, if you learn to sail on a dinghy, it'll help you be a better keelboat sailor.

I started with a 25' boat, and upgraded to 30 feet. The difference in handling and difficulty, was not so great that you should feel the need to do this. I upgraded sooner than I expected, because I wanted a boat with better performance, not because I was worried about handling a 30 footer.

Learn to sail on a dinghy, bum a few rides on keelboats to get used to the difference, then go out and buy your 30 footer. You'll be ok.
 

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Kevin
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Discussion Starter #3
dammit I love a response like that. Thanks bubblehead!

I've ripped my grandparents sunfish around for 20 years. Not on the ocean tho. Got some really good memories on it, and some good experience I guess. Really not that hard to get going on one of those things.

A lot of people have been telling me to start with a 22' footer, but I couldn't imagine being on something smaller than a 25'. A 30' would be ideal. I also love working with my hands, and I have good technical skills, so I think I could take care of 3/4 of the maintenance.

I've only sailed on larger boats a couple of times. I figure if I take some lessons on bigger boats, or try an find someone to go out with, I'd at least start off on the right foot.
 

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The difference between a dinghy and a heavy keelboat, is that everything happens more slowly, but has more force behind it. A heavy keel boat is less sensitive to every little puff and shift that would require instant correction on a dinghy.

Generally, if you learn to sail on a dinghy, it'll help you be a better keelboat sailor.

I started with a 25' boat, and upgraded to 30 feet. The difference in handling and difficulty, was not so great that you should feel the need to do this. I upgraded sooner than I expected, because I wanted a boat with better performance, not because I was worried about handling a 30 footer.

Learn to sail on a dinghy, bum a few rides on keelboats to get used to the difference, then go out and buy your 30 footer. You'll be ok.
Amen, brother. Exactly on target. A couple of sails on any keelboat, and you will be golden. Your steepest learning curve will be manuvering under power and docking; your Sunfish experience here is useless, and your 25 foot experience will not be all that helpful in learning how to dock your 30 footer. The 25 footer will have an outboard auxilliary; manuvering with an outboard is completly different than with a fixed prop. With an outboard, you can move the prop around, which give you big flexibility. Additionally, the momentum of a 30 foot boat is a quantam leap greater than that of a 25 footer. Don't get me wrong; docking practice on a 25 footer will not be wasted, but its just a lot easier to do than on a 30.

Another vote for going right to the 30 footer if that is your ultimate plan.
 

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Don't buy a boat smaller than you want. In less than a year you will be trying to sell the smaller boat so you can go get the one you want. Find someone to crew with to gain experience and then buy the C30.
 

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lots of boats

sailing a C30 is just like a Sunfish, right? :laugher

I'll be taking lessons in the Spring hopefully. I can't wait to learn on a bigger boat. My goal is to work my way up to a 25' before I seal the deal on a boat. I'm looking towards 25-30' boats after I get a year or two of experience and training. Any suggestions for boats similar to the c30 would be great. I'm looking for a nice daysailer and weekender.

Thanks!
I hear it all the time, but, IMHO, I don't think that sailing a sunfish or any dingy is much like sailing a large (~30') keelboat. Yes, the concept of sailing and sail trim is the same, but that's about it. The sails are different (just a main vs. main and headsail), how you trim is different (winches vs hauling a line), tacking is different (release one sheet and trim the other vs just turning), steering is different (wheel [usually] vs tiller). And we haven't even started discussing anchoring, docking, etc.

Anyway, I do believe that if you can handle a dingy you can learn to handle a larger boat. But be prepared for a big learning curve.

Regarding your second question about what boats are similar to a Catalina 30, there are many. Popular brands on the east coast include Pearson, Newport, O'day, Hunter, Beneteau, O'day, C&C. Other common boats include Tartan, Sabre, S2, Grampian, Ericcson, Islander, etc.

If you will be mostly daysailing with the occasional over-night stay, then a boat in the 25-28' range would be great for 2-4 people. Some particular models to consider are Catalina 27, Newport 27, 272 and 28, O'day 28, Tartan 28, Sabre 28, etc.

You should be able to get a decent boat for 10K. For 15K you should be able to get a real nice boat. For 20K you should be able to get a real real nice boat. Boats with inboard diesels are worth more than outboards or gas inboard, but those can be OK too.

For overnight comfort, consider boats that have pressure hot and cold water, AC and DC electrical systems.

Good luck,
Barry
 

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Kevin
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66 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Mstern, thanks for the response, and for bringing up the point of difference in characteristics b/t the in/out. That had not been a factor in my decision. One concern I have with purchasing a 30 was maintenance on the inboard. I do have DIY mechanical skills for someone whos not a mechanic, although I've never ripped a motor out of a car. I've factored in all costs of owning a sailboat, except for the overhaul/maintenance of the engine (especially and inboard). Maybe someone could fill in and inform me a little on what to expect from these 3 cyl diesels, and what to look for upon purchase. Yearly costs, receipts, etc.

Also, I plan keeping the boat in a mooring. Is there a "procedure" when you are on your approach?
 

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Think about a used Ranger 29 too, better performance under sail than the Catalina and construction a little more solid.

Mooring buoy approach is much simpler than a slip, since there's no such thing as a 'crosswind' and you don't have to sweat prop-walk in reverse. Just head into the wind, pick up the pennant (which can have a floating antenna on the end for this purpose, make fast, and drift or back downwind a little. Piece of cake under power, and almost as easy under sail--douse the jib before you head up, then drop the main once the pennant has a little strain on it.
 

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Chastened
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I hear it all the time, but, IMHO, I don't think that sailing a sunfish or any dingy is much like sailing a large (~30') keelboat.
<snip> Good luck,
Barry
You're right, it isn't. The purpose behind learning how to sail a dinghy first is to just get the fundamentals down, and to make you sensitive to the forces the affect the boat.

When you take this sensitivity to a big keelboat, you tend to react faster, and sail better because you're more sensitive to what's happening.

People like me, who learned to sail a 25 footer first and then sail a dinghy, find themselves flipped into the drink when sailing a dinghy, because they failed to react with the mainsheet or the tiller fast enough. :eek:
 

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Kevin
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66 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Barry, thanks for the list of boats. I'll have some research to do this weekend. My budget is around 20k. If I could find a nice one for around 10-15K, well I figure my first year expenses are free! Hot/cold pressure would be a luxury, as well as AC/DC. The boats that you mentioned I've already done a little research on. I havent seen many with pressurized hot/cold. Do most have AC/DC? And for my price range, will I be able to afford these luxuries?

Nolatom, thanks for the explanation for mooring approach. Ill think of it like landing an airplane, into the headwind. Trying to get the general concepts down before stepping on the boat is important to me.

Bubblehead, I figured the dinghy would mean nothing when compared to the bigger boats. I just brought it up because it helped me understand sailing, and it was a fun experience for me. Can't wait to get on a bigger boat.

Suggestions on how to get more involved with a sailing community?
 

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more info

Hey,

Some more or less random thoughts:

Moorings:
I started sailing in the summer 2003. I have used a mooring since 2004 and I love the mooring! Easy to get the boat on and off the mooring, cheap, and safe. I row out to mine in a cheap dingy. Very simple.

Diesel Engines and Maintenance:

I have owned my current boat since 2006. It has a Universal Diesel M25 that had about 3600 hours on it when I bought it. In the five years I have owned the boat I have put 250 hours on it. The only 'engine' work I have done is oil and filter changes, fuel filter changes, and an electric fuel pump replacement, and a new exhaust mixing elbow. Diesel engines are pretty simple and very reliable.

I do need to do some electrical re-wiring for my engine, but you must expect to do some work on 25 year old boats.

Getting Involved in the Sailing Community
Go Racing! Seriously. Find a local yacht club or sailing association or something like that and ask if anyone needs crew. I assure you that many captains are looking for crew. There is no better way to learn about boats, sail trim, seamanship, tactics, gear, etc. than to get on the water on some one elses boat and do it for free! Maybe you like it and want to do more, or maybe it's not your thing, but you'll get to climb all over different boats and see which things you like and which you don't.

Luxury Features
In the 70's features like hot and cold pressure water and AC electrical systems weren't so popular. By the mid 80's they were. And not just on high end boats like Sabre. Most mid 80's Newports (27, 28, 30) came with teak and holly cockpit sole, leaded glass cabinet doors, pressure hot and cold water in the galley and head, shower in the head, and AC electrical systems.

My second boat was a Newport 28. I originally wanted a Catalina 30, but good ones were out of my price range. I was at a boat yard looking at a S2 9.2A (which was junk) when the broker pointed out a Newport 28. Hmm, this is pretty nice. Self tailing winches, all lines led aft, good set of sails including assym spinnaker in sock, autopilot, Universal Diesel M18 in good condition, wheel steering with Autopilot, hot water, berths for my family of 5, shower in the head, etc. Long story short, I bought the boat and enjoyed for 3 years.

For me, having the 'luxury' features made my family comfortable and more willing to spend nights aboard.

For $20K you will have no problem finding a very nice mid 80's boat with all the features. For that amount of $, expect the boat to be in 'sail away' condition with good sails and gear.

Here is a simple list of boats to whet your appetite:
1980 (Sail) Boats For Sale

Good luck,
Barry
 

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Chastened
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Barry, thanks for the list of boats. I'll have some research to do this weekend. My budget is around 20k. If I could find a nice one for around 10-15K, well I figure my first year expenses are free! Hot/cold pressure would be a luxury, as well as AC/DC. The boats that you mentioned I've already done a little research on. I havent seen many with pressurized hot/cold. Do most have AC/DC? And for my price range, will I be able to afford these luxuries?

Nolatom, thanks for the explanation for mooring approach. Ill think of it like landing an airplane, into the headwind. Trying to get the general concepts down before stepping on the boat is important to me.

Bubblehead, I figured the dinghy would mean nothing when compared to the bigger boats. I just brought it up because it helped me understand sailing, and it was a fun experience for me. Can't wait to get on a bigger boat.

Suggestions on how to get more involved with a sailing community?

Like Barry says, go racing. Use Google or whatever, to find your local yacht clubs, sailing clubs and race clubs. Hit the docks with a case of beer, and you'll find a ride.
 

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All great advice thus far, paint,except it's missing one key element; if you buy a Newport you'll look cooler. And, of course, chicks dig cool guys. I'm just sayin'........

And for the record, if you're looking to increase that post number, there's an "introduce yourself" thread and an even better, "song" thread, designed to help just that.
 

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Barquito
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3,475 Posts
People like me, who learned to sail a 25 footer first and then sail a dinghy, find themselves flipped into the drink when sailing a dinghy, because they failed to react with the mainsheet or the tiller fast enough.
How true. Even for slightly larger boats. I sold by Catalina 22 to a guy who learned on a 34' boat. He had a knock-down on the C22 and sank it. I just never thought that a person would not think to have a hand on the mainsheet... but that comes from dinghy sailing.
 

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sailing a C30 is just like a Sunfish, right? :laugher

I'll be taking lessons in the Spring hopefully. I can't wait to learn on a bigger boat. My goal is to work my way up to a 25' before I seal the deal on a boat. I'm looking towards 25-30' boats after I get a year or two of experience and training. Any suggestions for boats similar to the c30 would be great. I'm looking for a nice daysailer and weekender.

Thanks!
You'll be grateful later on if the lessons include handling an inboard diesel sailboat with wheel. Things like using prop walk to your advantage, maneouvring in a small space, docking, and so on. I paid for an hour's tuition on a C27 before making the transition and it was invaluable.
 

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Water Lover
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773 Posts
Sailing community... websites like this are a good start. Long Island Sound should be filled with every manner of yacht and sailing club, sailing association, commercial sailing schools, seminars conducted by different groups, classes taught by the CG Auxiliary or Power Squadrons, crew lists on yacht/sail club websites, bulletin boards in marine chandleries such as West Marine, etc. Many clubs have periodic open houses and tours; many club web site crew lists are open to anyone; and many regattas and sailing events need volunteers. For marinas where access isn't too restricted, a technique of walking the docks and asking skippers if they know anyone who needs "rail meat" might work ... especially if you offer to bring beer on the less serious regatta nights such as "beer cans". Some areas have community sailing associations and clubs that provide low-cost lessons and boat rentals; some commercial charter boat companies provide discounted "club memberships". Many regions have local publications (windcheck magazine, lisail.com etc.) that can be found on line or at boat-related businesses. Good luck and safe voyages!
 

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Kevin
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66 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
E money thanks for the advice. A cool factor with be a total bonus, I'll look that for sure. Hopefully some of my coolness/swagger hasn't wore off from my high school/college days:). I finally got the post count up to 15 so I could PM ppl.

Mark, thats a good suggestion with the inboard. My experience on ski boats probably wont suffice for manuevering an inboard sail.:laugher

rgscpat, Thanks for the advice on learning how to get involved. I like beer a lot, and I'm beginning to think a lot of people in the sailing community do as well, so we should all get along great.

Racing sounds like the way to go....
 

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As other posters have stated the sail trim, etc. will be essentially the same. The lightweight sunfish will be very sensitive to wind and wave forces, the keelboat because of its large mass will react somewhat slower.

There is a fundamental difference.
The sunfish is a planing hull boat, capable of vastly exceeding its so-called 'hull speed'. In a planing hull boat the 'planing' speed will cause a dynamic 'stability' of the boat on the water (If you can keep the mast directly 'over' the boat and not let the boat 'dump' (broach, capsize, etc.) .... and you can partly lift (remove) the daggerboard for increased 'downwind' speeds and to 'balance' the helm pressure.
A keelboat is a 'displacement' hull form - essentially 'pushes' the water out of it way (a planing hull rides 'on-top' of the water) and will/can become 'cranky' (unstable) when exceeding the so-called 'hull speed' (1.34 times the square root of its waterline length).
A keelboat is somewhat limited in speed by its 'waterline length' and if it greatly exceeds its so-called 'hull speed' can become quite unstable, much above the 'hull speed' can easily broach and capsize; although the keel weight will cause the boat to right itself (if it doesnt 'downflood' through the open companionway or open 'locker' in extreme conditions .... or 'break the mast or major structural 'gear' when it broaches or capsizes).

A planing hull usually can reduce the surface area of the centerboard or daggerboard, etc. and thus has a less possibility of 'broaching' .... or 'tripping over its keel', etc. Pulling up the 'board' when going downwind can help to even higher 'planing' speeds. The lightweight planing hull can easily 'capsize', then 'swamp' full of water, and then 'turn turtle' (mast pointing 'straight down') but as in the case of a sunfish can be easily 'righted' by a single sailor.
 
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