[Valiente]

My mechanic has just informed me that due to the paucity of parts, rebuilding my 22 year old Westerbeke W-52 diesel could cost nearly as much as a new one. I told him I'd send him some rebuild kit links from Australia at a tenth of the price of Westerbeke's, but this has me thinking of the upside of repowering with a new, warranted diesel.

So I will throw it out there to the esteemed readers: If you were to purchase a new diesel in the 50-60 HP range to power a steel 41 foot pilothouse motorsailer (the sailing qualities are strong enough that we will sail more than motor), what would you purchase and why?

Some particular considerations:

1) This hypothetical repower would be going into a long-distance cruiser. We are looking to circumnavigate.

2) This will be turning a 19 x 15 VariProp four-blade feathering prop on a 1.25-inch shaft.

3) The engine will be on soft mounts and attached to an Aquadrive universal coupler/thrust bearing installation.

4) The engine would rarely be used to make power without pushing the boat. Extensive solar and wind generation are the primary amp-makers, not an alternator. The engine, however, once on, would be run at load until fully warmed up...like a "poop pump" run every four or five days a few miles out of an anchorage. At that time, I would be happy to make amps from a 90-100 amp alternator.

5) The engine would probably be run 800-1000 hours per year. Ease of maintenance, ease of acquiring spares and sheer robustness are prime considerations. Weight is not, nor are complications like intercoolers, turbos, etc. If I need to service the thing, I want to have it as simple as possible.

I am leaning toward Beta Marine's Kubota-based engine, but I would love opinions. I am cross-posting this to Cruisers' Forum and Sailnet to gather as wide a response as possible.

Thanks!

 

[JohnRPollard]

I am leaning toward Beta Marine's Kubota-based engine

I would lean this way too, but would compare features and "full-up" pricing to the equivalent Yanmar. When I've done this exercise in the smaller 3-cylinder range, the Beta has the edge by my reckoning. But 4-cylinders are a different beast.

 

[jrd22]

Generally speaking the life span of a diesel is closely related to the maximum rpm the engine will turn. There are engines that turn 4000 rpm to generate 60 hp and there are engines that turn 2800 to do the same. The 2800 rpm engine is going to be built stronger, and probably weighs more, and should have a longer working lifespan all things being equal. In my experience the Kubotas have always been a tough, no nonsense engine but I'm not familiar with the latest models so can't comment on them. I would stay away from a new model that hasn't been around for at least several years. As far as parts availability and service worldwide I would think Yanmar and Volvo probably are number one and two, not sure which is #1. With overnight delivery almost worldwide I'm not sure how important this is though. I would actually look at each engine you are considering and think about where things are located and how accessible they will be in your boat. IMHO a turbo on that small of an engine is not only unnecessary but also a maintenance and reliability problem. A lot of manufacturers are using smaller blocks to save weight and cranking the hp up by use of turbos and intercoolers. If I were going to repower (I have a Volvo MD 31A, 62 hp, 4500 hrs) I would look at something non-turbo, low rpm, without an electric fuel solenoid (cable stop) or electric fuel pump. Let us know what you decide on, OK?

 

[Faster]

Hey Val

Didn't we do this go-round a year or so ago? I'll repeat for consideration the Pathfinder - still in business, I believe, based on the world-wide ubiquitous VW Rabbit diesel. I'd think that the engine parts would be available as easily as any of the others world wide.. the marinization parts (pumps, manifold, etc ) are mainstream brands like Jabsco, Perkins, etc. Aluminum block for reduced weight and the last time I checked they were pretty favourable on the price point. Turbo versions are now producing over 60 HP I believe and based on the larger 1900cc engine, but I'd probably avoid a turbo for various reasons.

 

[tdw]

I like Yanmar I must admit and would probably go there if re-powering.

Raven now has a Bukh (Westerbeke in America) and the only complaint I have is that it's a bit noisy. Then again it's also 20 years old and if you listen to Maine Sail's engine (video in his oil changin thread) which also looks like a Bukh/Westerbeke to me it is beautifully quiet. Our noise problem may simply be a combination of old age and out of date dampening. Also had a Volvo for many years and it never let me down.

If Maine's diesle is Kubota not Westerbeke then I'd be giving Kubota a big tick as well.

One thing I'd keep in mind is that once you are out there, you are going to be in Asia/Oceania a lot of the time. Ergo, things that are popular in Asia are going to be easier to service and/or find parts for.

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would go turbo as an auxiliary for a sailing boat.

 

[negrini]

If you're circunnavigating, you'll have just few options, as outside US you find just larger diesel manufacturers spreaded on every spot. Familiarize yourself with international diesel market, what is waaaaay smaller in options, than US market. Yanmar is my choice 1- has thousands of representatives and tons of spareparts around south oceans, our homeground. 2- it runs at max 3,000 rpm, a bit lower than competition. 3- improved noise and vibration recently, well, still a lot to go, but getting beter. 4- cheapest world wide class engine. If you do a quick search on southatlantic area, every fishing boat around here does go for Yanmar. And this one is as reliable as others you find in US.

 

[TSOJOURNER]

Nanni

Take a look at the Nanni line. Kubota based also. The 50hp is a low rpm engine if I remember correctly. I went with the 39hp and am thrilled. Very good international support.

 

[blt2ski]

WHen I buy motors etc for my landscape biz, I not only look at what might be the best, but mostly, what is the availiblitiy of parts and service etc. For this reason alone, I would probably go with a Yanmar, only as my gut says it might have a better parts/service/warrenty options outside NA. I could be wrong on this, but that would be my first choice. As also mentioned, it would be a non turbo motor also. Most folks that I know that are repowering older boats with turbo's are going to non turbo equals. One more thing to go wrong, and more power off the line with a non turbo motor too!

You might also look at bumping the HP up say 5-10 also. This might allow you a bit more go power if the going gets rough, ala currents, wind/waves and a lee shore. If I redid my 16HP Yanmar, I would try to go with a 20 if I could do it in the same 2cy 2gm I have. I would not go to a 3 cyl to succeed personally.

Marty

 

[dieselboy]

Keep in mind the problem you are having now... Parts..
What ever you choose make sure you can get parts anywhere.. Volvo, Yanmar i know are world wide and readily available.. Your going around the globe don't cut your trip short because a lack of parts some where.

 

[Fareast]

I repowered my 30,000 lb sailboat last year with a Westerbeke 64A, it turns only 2800 RPM, and its performance to date has been excellent.

 

[tommays]

The question is if you take a spares KIT with pumps and gaskets how much more are you going to repiar ?

If the motor has a major issue with a bearing or piston your pretty screwed no matter how much stuff you pack

 

[Gramp34]

I've got a similar sized project going that I'll be looking to power in a few years. I'm looking hard at the Cummins B3.3M, marinized by Trans Atlantic Diesels.

Talking about lower rpm giving lower noise and longer life, it's rated at 65 hp @ 2600 rpm, but also delivers 55 hp @ 1800 rpm. I would prop for 1800 rpm max.

The B3.3 engines are primarily used on generator sets, construction and farm equipment. Gensets run either 1800 rpm (60 Hz) or 1500 rpm (50 Hz) 24/7 at full load. The turbocharged versions of these engines are rated for up to 110 hp, so the 65 hp version isn't stressed very much. These engines are also UL and FM approved for fire pump service.

Cummins has dealers all over the world, so parts are available everywhere. They claim to have built over 200,000 of these engines.

Usual disclaimer: no affiliation, etc.

Tim

 

[donradclife]

I looked at Yanmar, Izuzu, Beta, and Nanni engines in the 50 hp range. Best availability for parts was proabably Izuzu, as Izuzu trucks are everywhere. but I ran into a boat in Cyprus whose Izuzu had broken a timing belt, which opened my eyes to the fact that even some diesels use timing belts. The Yanmar is the only engine designed for marine use, which means that there is not a big spare parts infrastucture for trucks/tractors/compressors/refrigeration/etc. There are more Yamars installed in boats than other brands, but it seems like I have heard too many reports of major Yanmar failures at low hours to be comfortable with that choice.

The Kubota engines are popular in tractors and small equipment (forklifts/bobcats), and one of my friends with a trucking company had his mechanics tear down and rebuild a 30 hp Kubota which had been submerged. The mechanics were very impressed with the engine design--there were roller bearings in places that they did not expect to see them in engines of less than 500 hp. The choice between Beta and Nanni is more a function of what language you can call the factory in.

So I ended up with a Beta 50 (hp at 2800 rpm) in my 30,000 lb boat. Its now 2 years old and has 500 hours on it with the only problem being the built-in oil change pump, and Beta fedexed a replacement to me in Trindidad at no charge.

For extended cruising we put about 350 hours a year on our engine, to supplement the solar/wind battery charging, moving in/out of anchorages, and motoring in areas of very light winds. As a result, we never use more than about 20 hp of the 50hp available, and a turbo would be more of a liability than an asset.

 

[Valiente]

Hey Val

Didn't we do this go-round a year or so ago?

Yes, but the difference now is that the engine is out and I got the estimate for rebuild: $13K using "genuine Westerbeke parts"!

Imagine my reply.

I gave my mechanic some links to Australian diesel rebuild kit sellers, because I can probably get pistons, sleeves, gaskets, cranks and seals for a grand or less from there, which makes a rebuild a better deal, as I understand this engine, and I agree with the "heavy, low-RPM, forget the race boat turbo stuff" concepts.

 

[Valiente]

I've got a similar sized project going that I'll be looking to power in a few years. I'm looking hard at the Cummins B3.3M, marinized by Trans Atlantic Diesels.

I was actually looking at this...it's sort of the dark horse in the running.

I have to be sensitive to dealer networks, so that narrows the field. I like the Kubota-based models (Nanni and Beta), but I think Yanmar and Volvo have the edge here.

I wish I liked the Yanmar engines better...they seem kinda...lightweight. Still, the fact that they have a 50% share in many places is going to have to be considered.

I am in the unusual situation that my "from above and either side" access (the engine is in a bay beneath the pilothouse deck) and the fact it's a heavy steel boat means that the usual aspects of access (a plus of the Beta), weight (a plus of turbos and aluminum blocks) and size aren't a huge concern. Almost all current 50-65HP diesels...even the Cummins...are smaller than the existing Westerbeke W-52, which is 700 lbs., so whatever goes in, even hypothetically, should fit without much alteration.

 

[Faster]

Yes, but the difference now is that the engine is out and I got the estimate for rebuild: $13K using "genuine Westerbeke parts"!

Well... to put this in perspective with our Pathfinder on our last boat we rebuilt the engine (head, bottom end, new rings, brgs, seals/gaskets etc etc, hot tanked and so on) - for under $2500. No labour costs as we did it all ourselves but this was genuine VW parts. We were fortunate not to need new pistons, as they were $1000/set and hard to find.

Even adding labour costs, that's a long way from $13K

PS - at the time Pathfinder offered a "Xmas Special" - we send them our engine and gear, they replace the engine, rebuild the gear, repaint "any colour you want" for $9500 incl shipping. This was about 8 years ago.

 

[Valiente]

So I ended up with a Beta 50 (hp at 2800 rpm) in my 30,000 lb boat. Its now 2 years old and has 500 hours on it with the only problem being the built-in oil change pump, and Beta fedexed a replacement to me in Trindidad at no charge.

For extended cruising we put about 350 hours a year on our engine, to supplement the solar/wind battery charging, moving in/out of anchorages, and motoring in areas of very light winds. As a result, we never use more than about 20 hp of the 50hp available, and a turbo would be more of a liability than an asset.

Thanks for the vote for the Beta. I like it, but I'm in the rare position of actually having "all the access at the front" being a bit of a liability rather than a plus. Beta's still in the running, however, as I hear a lot of positive things from former Atomic 4 owners.

Our boat is 30,000 lbs. with full diesel and no water or gear. It will be about 34,000 lbs. fully loaded as we will add 40 gallons of diesel and 200 gallons of water plus gear and stores.

 

[Valiente]

Well... to put this in perspective with our Pathfinder on our last boat we rebuilt the engine (head, bottom end, new rings, brgs, seals/gaskets etc etc, hot tanked and so on) - for under $2500. No labour costs as we did it all ourselves but this was genuine VW parts. We were fortunate not to need new pistons, as they were $1000/set and hard to find.

Even adding labour costs, that's a long way from $13K

Yes, indeed. Westerbeke is as bad as Volvo for rapacious spares prices. Trust me, labour is not the huge cost here. However, if I can score identical "Mazda Diesel" spares, the cost would be 90% less, with the exception of a couple of things like a heat exchanger and a Sherwood raw water pump ($485 last time I checked!).