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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello all

I was cruising the net looking at Morris Frances sailboats and stumbled across this picture;



Edit: the pic below does a better job of showing the linkage



More pics here;
Sailboat - Frances 26 by Morris Yachts and Victoria Yachts designed by Chuck Paine

I am curious how the linkage on the self steering works, how the self steering oar connects to the rudder. In particular how would one engage and disengage the self steering?

Normally, as I am sure you are all aware, in the case of a transom hung rudder, two lines would feed from the top of the self steering oar to the tiller where they could be engaged and disengaged at will. Clearly not the case here. It appears that a single line runs down the rudder to a pin used to lock the oar to the rudder.

Thoughts?

John
 

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BJV
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Picture not enough detail, could be:
Sayes Rig which connects directly to rudder below the waterline, or
Some wind vanes the paddle acts as the rudder and the main rudder is locked amidships.
Suspect the former,
 

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those are lines to change the windvane angle

Im sure you see the name on the side of the windvane that says caphorn

this is the system designed by yves gelinas...

the caphorn windvane

all info you need there

here is a sayes rig for reference:
http://www.selfsteer.com/products/sayes/

it has to arms that extend to each side of the rudder, the big difference is that they usually extend about halway down the rudder for better feedback.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Agreed Christian, its hard to see in either pic but there is a single line on the starboard side that runs down to the linkage, I assume to engage, disengage?


John
 

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Agreed Christian, its hard to see in either pic but there is a single line on the starboard side that runs down to the linkage, I assume to engage, disengage?

John
you mean portside? some systems have a quick release system for disengaging the rudder input

not all

i havent actuallu used a caphorn, just aries and my current rig is an old sayes that I havent had time to play with yet:)
 

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Master Mariner
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What an absolute waste of money and time. One could build a much better, much simpler trim tab wind vane on an outboard rudder.
That looks quite pretty, but it also seems a fragile, complicated piece of over engineered garbage. Sad.
 

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What an absolute waste of money and time. One could build a much better, much simpler trim tab wind vane on an outboard rudder.
That looks quite pretty, but it also seems a fragile, complicated piece of over engineered garbage. Sad.
WHAT??????????? although expensive the caphorns have one of the best reputations these days and for quite a while

of course I agree with the outboard rudder design...

on my folkboat I had a spare rudder I was going to install a simple trim tab windvane too like motissier describes

unlees you are joking I have no idea why on earth you would dislike something so much

I could say the say for the monitor which looks like an oil rig, too...but they have great if not the best reputation too...

pick your poison really:)

I do agree its expensive...and maybe a bit overengineered, I wouldnt call it garbage though! YIKES!!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
you mean portside? some systems have a quick release system for disengaging the rudder input

not all

i havent actuallu used a caphorn, just aries and my current rig is an old sayes that I havent had time to play with yet:)
Right again Christian, port side (left no I mean the the other left :) )

Just curious how a quick release system would work in the application.
 

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usually its a spring loaded pin

some vanes also have a breakaway emergency pin in the levered arm or pendulum if you will

here the caphorn simply uses like aries and others a line to a point on the boat to cleat it off that way you dont lose it
 

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WHAT??????????? although expensive the caphorns have one of the best reputations these days and for quite a while

of course I agree with the outboard rudder design...

on my folkboat I had a spare rudder I was going to install a simple trim tab windvane too like motissier describes

unlees you are joking I have no idea why on earth you would dislike something so much

I could say the say for the monitor which looks like an oil rig, too...but they have great if not the best reputation too...

pick your poison really:)

I do agree its expensive...and maybe a bit overengineered, I wouldnt call it garbage though! YIKES!!!!!!
I am not joking. A simple trim tab on the back of an outboard rudder will out perform any mechanical vane. I has no linkage, therefor no weak point. A direct system needs less power because there is no friction. It is certainly much less likely to break, because there are almost no moving parts. It requires no weak point or break-away, because the trim tab it is directly behind the rudder and is almost totally protected. I had a trim tab vane which operated flawlessly from 6 knots to 60 without any help from me. Perhaps it would have controlled the boat in more wind, but I just never sailed in more.
I just find it foolish that anyone would spend the money for such a complicated and expensive vane, when they have an outboard rudder.
 
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I GET YOU we are on the same page then regarding the design of the boat leading the choice of windvane

I agree...one can make a windvane, like I was planning on making from pipe, wood, and a couple of cleats and a lead weight on an arm like moitessier descrubes in his book...

what I find weird is why you would call the caphorn windvane garbage, when it clearly is not(its just not the smart choice for a boat like the francis morris....although some double enders and canoe sterns do have issues with installing certain vanes)
 

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I GET YOU we are on the same page then regarding the design of the boat leading the choice of windvane

I agree...one can make a windvane, like I was planning on making from pipe, wood, and a couple of cleats and a lead weight on an arm like moitessier descrubes in his book...

what I find weird is why you would call the caphorn windvane garbage, when it clearly is not(its just not the smart choice for a boat like the francis morris....although some double enders and canoe sterns do have issues with installing certain vanes)
In this case only, for an outboard rudder, and the way it is offset and connected to the rudder, it is indeed, IMO a garbage installation.
If you want a simple plan for a great trim tab vane, get a Searunner Construction Manual by Jim Brown.
 

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I too am uneasy about the design in particular the link between the oar and the rudder.

Looks to me that he loads would be considerable especially if the rudder was moved by some one on the tiller.

Not much elasticity there.
 

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Old as Dirt!
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Hello all

I was cruising the net looking at Morris Frances sailboats and stumbled across this picture;



Edit: the pic below does a better job of showing the linkage



More pics here;
Sailboat - Frances 26 by Morris Yachts and Victoria Yachts designed by Chuck Paine

I am curious how the linkage on the self steering works, how the self steering oar connects to the rudder. In particular how would one engage and disengage the self steering?

Normally, as I am sure you are all aware, in the case of a transom hung rudder, two lines would feed from the top of the self steering oar to the tiller where they could be engaged and disengaged at will. Clearly not the case here. It appears that a single line runs down the rudder to a pin used to lock the oar to the rudder.

Thoughts?

John
John,

The linkage is quite obvious and quite simple. The horizontal strut between the top of the shaft connected to the hydrofoil and the steel tabs extending from the back side of the rudder head will pull or push the back of the rudder, which will rotate the rudder about the raked vertical axis of the rudder post. It's somewhat similar to a trim-tab self steering gear but without a trim tab on the trailing edge of the rudder to "muddy" up the flow over the rudder. The lines through the cam cleats merely change the orientation of the vane. I suspect the arrangement actually works pretty well and its a pretty innovative arrangement for a Cape Horn steering gear that avoids all the complicated rubbish of lines and pulleys under the stern deck.

FWIW...
 
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Bluenoser
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Don't spout nonsense about something you haven't tried. I have had a Cape Horn on my 37' cutter for over 10 years. It is, without doubt, the best investment I made for some of the highest quality equipment on my boat. It will steer the boat dead downwind all day long in any weather without ever accidentally gybing. When I am motoring, I connect a simple Raymarine tiller pilot to its mechanism and it will steer the boat to a compass course or a waypoint from the GPS using almost no amperage. I would sail my boat a lot less (due to the difficulties of solo sailing) if it were not for my Cape Horn. The Cape Horn is incredibly well engineered and built. The design is very simple and reliable. It can be used with any sort of rudder design. Many circumnavigations have been done with this vane. In fact, it is guaranteed for 28,000 miles or one circumnavigation.

I am not joking. A simple trim tab on the back of an outboard rudder will out perform any mechanical vane. I has no linkage, therefor no weak point. A direct system needs less power because there is no friction. It is certainly much less likely to break, because there are almost no moving parts. It requires no weak point or break-away, because the trim tab it is directly behind the rudder and is almost totally protected. I had a trim tab vane which operated flawlessly from 6 knots to 60 without any help from me. Perhaps it would have controlled the boat in more wind, but I just never sailed in more.
I just find it foolish that anyone would spend the money for such a complicated and expensive vane, when they have an outboard rudder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Hello all

It's the OP. I think I haven't done a very good job of asking my original question. I get how the self steering connects to the rudder. Looking at the pictures on the website I can understand how one would dis-engage the self steering from the rudder. What I can't figure out is how one would re-engage the system. The only way I see it, is to lean over the back of the rudder and re-connect, instinctively this seems impractical and unsafe. Am I missing something?

To quote jimjazzdad

...
The Cape Horn is incredibly well engineered and built. The design is very simple and reliable. It can be used with any sort of rudder design.
...
I have no experience with self steering but I can buy the above, it appears to be a well built even elegant design. The connection to the rudder on the Morris Frances seems simple enough as well(no lines leading to the cockpit) I just can't quite figure out how it works relative to engaging the system.

John
 

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Bluenoser
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Hello all

To quote jimjazzdad

I have no experience with self steering but I can buy the above, it appears to be a well built even elegant design. The connection to the rudder on the Morris Frances seems simple enough as well(no lines leading to the cockpit) I just can't quite figure out how it works relative to engaging the system.

John
I am not familiar with the installation on the Morris Francis or how it is disengaged. Mine is connected to the quadrant of my spade rudder by blocks and rope - I just uncleat a rope when I want to disengage it. Here is a thread I started on another sailing site.
 

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Don't spout nonsense about something you haven't tried. I have had a Cape Horn on my 37' cutter for over 10 years. It is, without doubt, the best investment I made for some of the highest quality equipment on my boat. It will steer the boat dead downwind all day long in any weather without ever accidentally gybing. When I am motoring, I connect a simple Raymarine tiller pilot to its mechanism and it will steer the boat to a compass course or a waypoint from the GPS using almost no amperage. I would sail my boat a lot less (due to the difficulties of solo sailing) if it were not for my Cape Horn. The Cape Horn is incredibly well engineered and built. The design is very simple and reliable. It can be used with any sort of rudder design. Many circumnavigations have been done with this vane. In fact, it is guaranteed for 28,000 miles or one circumnavigation.
If you have an outboard rudder then you have wasted a whole lot of money on a vane you did not need to buy. That is what I am saying, not that the CH is a bad vane, but of course you would have known that if you'd bothered to read what I wrote. It is the application, not the equipment. But since you haven't sailed with a trim tab vane, perhaps, "Don't spout nonsense about something you haven't tried.".
 

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Bluenoser
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Fair enough, I will grant that a trim tab on an outboard rudder would be more economical that a wind vane. I have no experience with outboard rudders or trim tabs, so I defer to you on its efficacy. What I take exception with is your opening statement:

What an absolute waste of money and time [...]That looks quite pretty, but it also seems a fragile, complicated piece of over engineered garbage. Sad.
 
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