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Farr 11.6 (Farr 38)
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Over in the Pro's and Con's of Steel Boat thread, there has been a wide range of off-topic discussion. Earlier there was a post by Lou452, which asked some interesting questions, but which were off the themes of the thread. (It is not his fault since there probably is more off topic discussion than on topic within that thread.)

But for sometime now, I have been thinking of creating a thread which is intended to provide a place to discuss, "What about this idea?".

You know how that goes, you start thinking to yourself, "Hey wouldn't be great if boats were this way?" or "Gee, I wonder why no one builds boats like this?" I thought it would be fun and interesting to hear people's ideas of that sort and be able to discuss them. I hope Lou does not mind, but I have copied his post below to kick this off.


I know I am still new to sailnet and sailing. That is why some of my thoughts my seem like they come from Mars. It is nice when I get someone to explain. I also love this Sailnet Community because It presents real sailors with up to date conversation and knowledge. I reed a few sailing mags and always have a book going but sailnet has multiple views at all times.
I like the idea of a single mast. K.I.S.S I think 32- 36 foot is about the biggest I could ever feel In control. If you get a rig much bigger would you start to need more high tech machinery. Winches that are electric. The Anchor on a boat bigger than this could not be man handled ? I see they single hand 60 foot of boat solo around the world These men and women very exceptional rare talented individuals ? Those boats are top of the line.
I am still on the idea a boat should not sink. In some ways it took a lot for me to understand how a wood boat sinks. I thought that a wood boat just broke up but now I know they go to the bottom like they are made of steel. The HMS Bounty underlines this.
Has any boat used the cockpit to nest the dingy ? I am not a fan of a dingy on davits. A big inflatable rib or a hard dingy on top the deck is not sleek. The wind pulls on them. They look like 5 gallon water jugs tied to the life lines Safety at sea could come up if the come lose. If it somehow was nested over the cabin roof and looked like part of the boat. I think I did see one large cruiser with a dingy garage. It might have been a Hans ?
I would also like the boom to be able to bring heavy items on to the boat. Maybe a way to use the spinnaker pole with a weight as a counter balance. Could The spinnaker pole or the boom be a mast for the dingy ?
Next thought I have seen some huge air filled fender/ bumpers so the whole side of a boat is keep away from the dock. I have also seen water ballast bags that look like these fenders. How big is the largest R.I.B ? Could these fender ballast bags be around your boat incorporated into the design to look like it belongs . We have life jackets that inflate. Sort of like a scuba BCD for a boat. This could make a boat that will not sink. You cold also tie a lot of 5 gal water jugs to life lines and get the same benefits . The current stuff is not much better looking than the jugs and old tires . Why should a boat with limited space need to consume space with stuff like dock fenders. Build better boats ?
Good day, Lou
 

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Azimuthing props, as we see on the tractor tugs?

Puncture-resistant airbags down below with hydrostatically-triggered supply cylinders, you "can't sink"?

Telescoping jury-rig short mast and boom, to get you sailing after a dismasting?

This is more "equipment" than "build" ideas, and I can already think undesirable side-effects...

but.. Jeff, I note you didn't say, "what about this **good** idea" ;-) So, neener neener, maybe it and other goofus (or good) ideas will prompt discussion.

This seems very Silicon Valley in the '70s to me...cool.
 

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I am still on the idea a boat should not sink. In some ways it took a lot for me to understand how a wood boat sinks. I thought that a wood boat just broke up but now I know they go to the bottom like they are made of steel. The HMS Bounty underlines this.
It's really only the ballast (and fittings) in a wooden boat that makes it go to the bottom. HMS Bounty underlined that.

IIRC, when one of the last remaining ships from the Battle of Trafalgar had reached the end of it's life the hulk was towed out to sea to be scuttled, but unfortunately the scuttling charges blew the ballast out of the bottom and it didn't sink.

Azimuthing props, as we see on the tractor tugs?
There's a "metal cruising yacht" at our club that takes this concept one step further by having two hydraulically-driven 'drive legs' mounted on the transom that rotate around and hinge up out of the water whilst under sail (and in dock). Looks interesting - but bloody ugly!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
There are a lot of items in Lou's post.

"I like the idea of a single mast. K.I.S.S I think 32- 36 foot is about the biggest I could ever feel In control. If you get a rig much bigger would you start to need more high tech machinery. Winches that are electric."

This first one is simple. If the boat has a fractional rig with non-overlapping headsails, the jibs will be smaller and so tacking them even on a 40-42 footer without electric winches is still pretty easy.

"The Anchor on a boat bigger than this could not be man handled ? "

That is true, but even on a pretty big boat, it is not that hard to get by with a manual windlass if you have two people and know what you are doing. The way it works is that you have one person on the foredeck retrieving the rode by hand who is directing another person in the cockpit who is steering and operating the engine. Once the rode is vertical and tight, you can lock the rode in place and back down to break out the anchor. At that point its only a matter of using the manual windlass to bring the anchor and chain to the bow roller. Is it easier with an electric windlass on a boat this size? You're darn toot'n. But its not that bad without an electric windlass.

"I am still on the idea a boat should not sink. In some ways it took a lot for me to understand how a wood boat sinks. I thought that a wood boat just broke up but now I know they go to the bottom like they are made of steel."
This one is harder. There are a number of ways to look at this. To me if you are concerned with sinking then you you might use some combination of building a boat, which is unlikely to get pierced or build a boat which has a chance of staying afloat if it does get pierced. And this last one comes with two subsets; either build a boat with floatation or one which is compartmentalized to minimize the volume which can be flooded.

If the goal is to prevent getting pierced then the steel guys suggest they are the way to go. But in reality, from an engineering standpoint if you evaluate equal weight structures, then a properly designed cold molded wooden hull with a kevlar sheathing will easily beat steel for puncture resistance on a pound for pound basis. But a properly engineered cored fiberglass hull can also beat steel for puncture resistance on a pound for pound basis. A properly engineered solid glass hull of equal weight comes close to steel for puncture resistance.

Small panel areas, by that I mean that the boat should have a series of longitudinal frames and athwartship frames also reduce the span of the skin and reduce both the likelihood of being punctured and also reduce the likelihood of a pucture spreading as far.

Forward of the main bulkhead these should be quite closely spaced below the waterline forward of the main bulkhead. There should a ‘crush block’ at the stem at the waterline which extends above the waterline and extends back to the first watertight bulkhead.

Another way to reduce the chance of sinking is starting forward of the main bulkhead creating compartmentalized volumes with watertight bulkheads that extend vertically above the waterline that would result if the boat had at least two of the compartments flooded. Ideally the tops of the longitudinal frames and the athwartship frames are on the same plane so that you can screw plywood into the tops of the frames to slow or stop the flooding. Ideally one of these watertight bulkheads should be on the centerline of the boat because should the boat ride up on something, the centerline of the vee’d sections at the forward end of the boat would really have to stand up to a lot of abuse. That whole bulkhead system should be heavily glassed into place.

In the area of the keel there should be massive and closely athwartship ‘floor frames’ (this applies on fin keel or full keel, encapsulated or bolted on). On a boat with an encapsulated keel, the membrane across the top of the ballast needs to be as heavy as it would be on a boat with a bolt-on keel.

There should be no liners blocking access to the skin of the boat (at least forward of the main bulkhead and on the leading edges of the keel) up to the height of the flooded waterline mentioned above. All decks and flats in this area should be quickly removable so that access to make repairs.

There should be a bridge deck to prevent back flooding through the scuppers if the boat is down in the stern.

There should be a watertight compartment which isolates the stern of the boat so that the rudder post and prop strut are in a separate compartment from the main bilge. The rudder post and tube should be heavily reinforced with fore and aft and transverse knees and bulkheads.

As was mentioned various companies have experiemented with boat that had 100% floatation in the form of foamed in compartments and inflatable devises. Generally these have been expensive to build and a substanial amount of real estate is lost. My biggest concern with the foamed in floatatiob situation is that you could end up with a swamped boat but the puncture is inaccessible due to the foam in the way.

More later.....
 

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I have always thought boats should have auto inflating air bags to keep it afloat in the case of being holed. Perhaps around the waterline to look kinda like a rub rail. But how to inflate that much air? CO2? It could be retro fitted to any boat as well?

I like the idea of a builder incorporating a dingy into the design, perhaps using the spinnaker pole as a mast.

How about all the thru hulls? Caliber has a pretty good answer for this.

Why have an anchor hanging off a bow roller, incorporate it into the stem and lower on the bow, closer to the waterline with a watertight compartment. Same with a stern anchor.

I was thinking about painting our boat someday, why not use something like a decal or graphic applied over the existing hull, like this but for a boat. Scratch it, just apply a new one, don't like the color, apply a new one, and you can incorporate the boat name into the graphic Vehicle Graphics | Car Decals | Vinyl Lettering | Car Stickers | Signage | Poster | Canvas Printing | Banner Printing | Trade Show Displays
 

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I like the idea of a builder incorporating a dingy into the design, perhaps using the spinnaker pole as a mast.
I saw a boat that had this feature when I was cruising this summer. It does make the dinghy mast quite short (or makes your boat quite large). Most 2-3 person sailing tenders like my Dyer Dhow Midget or the Ranger Minto use masts that are about 16' long. The break into two sections to store in the dinghy.

I've also seen many dinghies that were nicely integrated into the cabin house of the boat, stored under the boom. On smaller boats (like the 30 footers that I primarily sail on) that doesn't leave room for a dodger, but it is otherwise pretty functional.

One of those boats almost uses the dinghy as the dodger. It sits over the doghouse including the horizontal sliding portion of the companionway. The transom of the dinghy has a cutout that matches the companionway drop boards. It looks pretty integrated. Tiny dinghy though, probably a 6.5' dinghy on a 30' boat.

Why have an anchor hanging off a bow roller, incorporate it into the stem and lower on the bow, closer to the waterline with a watertight compartment. Same with a stern anchor.
I'm personally not excited about having any opening into my boat at the stem.

A couple of other ideas:
* Why isn't the throttle cable on boats counteracted with a spring at the throttle, like a bicycle shifter? (or even better, copy the Simplex Retrofriction shifter). This would create a much lighter throttle action and eliminate hacks like putting a pinch bolt onto the throttle cable housing to add friction.

* Why aren't gaskets more common on occasionally maintained items? If Edson wants me to remove the top of my steering pedestal once a year to lube the bearings shouldn't they make it easier to do so?
 

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Azimuthing props, as we see on the tractor tugs?

....
That's old news. Lots of boats using a system with identical results:

Joystick docking in action | Yachting Monthly


Lou452 ... I think 32- 36 foot is about the biggest I could ever feel In control. If you get a rig much bigger would you start to need more high tech machinery.

That depends of your sailing experience, the type of boat and the way it is rigged. If you have no experience you should start with a responsive small sailboat but that does not mean that with time you don't feel confident to sail bigger boats.

I sail a powerful 41ft and I have no problem. An electric winch is a convenience not something you need to sail the boat. An electric winch also works manually. I am quite sure I could sail a bigger boat, depending of the rigging and the type of boat. Some 50fts would be much easier to sail than my own boat.

Regards

Paulo
 

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....

I like the idea of a builder incorporating a dingy into the design, perhaps using the spinnaker pole as a mast.

....

Why have an anchor hanging off a bow roller, incorporate it into the stem and lower on the bow, closer to the waterline with a watertight compartment. Same with a stern anchor.

I was thinking about painting our boat someday, why not use something like a decal or graphic applied over the existing hull, like this but for a boat. Scratch it, just apply a new one, don't like the color, apply a new one, and you can incorporate the boat name into the graphic ....
All those things have been done and are being done.



The anchor pivoting deep inside the anchor locker is used on bigger yachts and on some smaller ones. It is not more used because it is expensive.





The decal is an option instead of painting the boat, specially in Italy and many boats use decals over painting for graphic effects.




They give a 7 year warranty that is more than normally is given on a regular paint job.

Regards

Paulo
 

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HELISAILER!
The newest feature that all serious mariners are asking for: HELISAILER!
Waves getting too big? In danger of missing last call? HELISAILER!

Four aerofoil blades are hidden inside the mast. At the first sign of trouble they slide up and out, while the 1500-horsepower T700 Yanmar turboshaft neatly hidden beneath the dinette table springs to life and powers the blades to lift you and your loved ones to safety and/or the bar.

HELISAILER!

Don't go to sea without one.

 

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Why have an anchor hanging off a bow roller, incorporate it into the stem and lower on the bow, closer to the waterline with a watertight compartment.
You mean just like on Fuzzy's Malo?!? To me it makes perfect sense having both anchor and winch in the anchor locker, works a treat and keeps the deck clear also. ..although I'm sure he can tell you all about it.

It's got bow thrusters too. ..of course that isn't a new idea either. :)
 

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HELISAILER!
The newest feature that all serious mariners are asking for: HELISAILER!
Waves getting too big? In danger of missing last call? HELISAILER!

Four aerofoil blades are hidden inside the mast. At the first sign of trouble they slide up and out, while the 1500-horsepower T700 Yanmar turboshaft neatly hidden beneath the dinette table springs to life and powers the blades to lift you and your loved ones to safety and/or the bar.

HELISAILER!

Don't go to sea without one.

Of course that will only work with a lighter boat:D

It seems that some are just satisfied with XIX century sailboats, others with XX century ones while some just want XXI century boats and want to keep pushing the envelope. This thread is about that, pushing the envelope.;)

Regards

Paulo
 

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Since we have been talking about existent stuff in my opinion the best improvements in boat sailing had to do with boat control making it easier through electronics and mechanical helps (always with a safety manual mode).

One of the most important was this winch that works both ways:


This winch coupled with a light wireless control that can be used around the neck makes sailing very easy even for the solo sailor in a big sailing boat.

That coupled with wireless remote autopilot control (developed by solo race sailors) and single line reefing are for me the most useful developments.

Of course, I am forgetting wireless control of the anchor winch (indispensable when you dock to a quay med style single handed) and joystick docking for bigger sailboats.

Regards

Paulo
 

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HELISAILER!
The newest feature that all serious mariners are asking for: HELISAILER!
Waves getting too big? In danger of missing last call? HELISAILER!

Four aerofoil blades are hidden inside the mast. At the first sign of trouble they slide up and out, while the 1500-horsepower T700 Yanmar turboshaft neatly hidden beneath the dinette table springs to life and powers the blades to lift you and your loved ones to safety and/or the bar.

HELISAILER!

Don't go to sea without one.

I did this conversion 12 years ago, has worked well and I use it often. From kit...Jet Exec TURBINE CONVERSION KIT
 

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Be nice if the technology of Corsair/Dragonfly was extended to larger boats. A tri in the 45' range that fit in a standard slip, sailed like a bandit, had a true long term livability and was unsinkable could probably find a reasonable market.
Similarly a vane made of AL or carbon and nylon that could be easily be deployed, removed and stored would be marketable. Emergency rudder function is key. Especially if it would function with boats with open sterns or sugar scoops and allow easy use of stern swim ladders. Current versions ( Hydrovane etc.) are heavy and awkward enough that they go on and stay on.
Changing design so all through hulls are either stand pipes or manifolds in sea chests would be appreciated. Ideally fore ( or aft) of watertight bulkheads so not in living spaces.
 

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Changing design so all through hulls are either stand pipes or manifolds in sea chests would be appreciated. Ideally fore ( or aft) of watertight bulkheads so not in living spaces.
this has been done in such or at least similar fashion already...
http://www.german-yachtbau.de/innovationen_rumpfdurchbrueche.html

all german yachts have their hull throughs welded, the valves are above the waterline and any waste water goes out via the keel casing (they have lifting keels)...
 

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Be nice if the technology of Corsair/Dragonfly was extended to larger boats. A tri in the 45' range that fit in a standard slip, sailed like a bandit, had a true long term livability and was unsinkable could probably find a reasonable market.
....
That would not be a problem and would have been done...if there was a market for it. Sure I agree with you that it should be great but taking into account dragonfly prices (since Corsair has a very basic interior) that would cost well over a million USD for a boat with the interior space of a 38ft monohull. It is not the concept that it is not interesting but the price that it would cost. Not saying that there would not be potentially interested sailors but it would be very few.

Dragonfly has a 40ft, an older design, that they almost don't sell and they took ages to replace that model. It seems that even for a 40ft trimaran (1200) the market is rather small due to price

http://www.trimarans.com/boats/dragonfly-1200/presentation.aspx

Regards

Paulo
 

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Thanks Paulo wasn't aware of german yachts. Have been aware of this technique since seeing it in metal boats built locally in the 1980's.Believe fairly standard in many commercial hulls as well. Be great if it could be done in synthetic +/or wood epoxy hulls.

The Danish boats are sweet but like you say not a production run in numbers where costs of tooling are disseminated over enough boats that the price comes down.

Know you like the Pogo s with their unsinkability. To my eye interiors are sparse and not inviting for long term livability. Great designs though.

What you say about electric winches is surely true. Got made fun of a lot when I spec'd with all electric winches. Now when folks, even testosterone filled gung ho sailors, come to cruise it's rare the winch handles are used. Do like to crank the last few inches on halyards and reefs. Think the electric winches can be dangerous.

Really like the way some designers have incorporated the dinghy to lie vertical snug against the stern. Safe, out of the way and doesn't need a "garage" which really doesn't work until you're into mega yachts. Wish they did that on smaller and mid sized boats.

Wished you could have a tank draining the sinks. Maybe run through a filter. Then use the water to flush the heads. At present either use salt and have stink or use up valuable fresh.
 

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It seems that some are just satisfied with XIX century sailboats, others with XX century ones while some just want XXI century boats and want to keep pushing the envelope. This thread is about that, pushing the envelope.;)
Righto then, Paulo.. Foils. That's pushing the envelope.

The last AC has demonstrated it can be done - and the automation technology already exists to make it easy for Joe Average to control. I want to see more of your boats (including monohulls) with foils.. :D
 
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