SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

Sorry, you are about to get slammed. First question: bowsprit

18K views 80 replies 31 participants last post by  Scotty C-M 
#1 ·
So....I'm not going to say I bought a boat, since I believe I will have the transaction completed tomorrow, and be unloading my gear tomorrow evening. But I am going to have so many questions in the coming weeks, you are going to get sick of me, if you already aren't, and I'm sorry.

I actually like asking people online better than in person. Pros can be stingy with handing out info, and owners can be all over the place on what they say.

After looking at this boat, the main problem I saw was the bowsprit has rot at the end. I tapped all over the boat, and this wooden sprit, see photos attached, at the end had some rot.

I'm no rot expert, so I can't tell how far into it it goes, but it's a critical piece because it supports the forestay, with a small dolphin kicker below.

By tapping and feeling, it is only the end. If you look at the picture, at the chainplate, from the last screw forward is soft.

Never having had a bowsprit, but also wanting to add an anchor roller. How soon should these be replaced? Can I sail with it like this in the meantime? Is it a costly thing? I wouldn't think it would be too expensive, mostly I just have a piece of wood cut, loosen and remove the forestay and put the new wood on. Yes? I could glass over the wood maybe.

Thoughts?
 

Attachments

See less See more
2
#2 ·
It looks like to me, from that picture, that it's basically a 2x12 or so, just painted and stuck on there. I would look into replacing the entire piece, and make sure to seal it properly before mounting the rest. To be honest, if it's showing ANY softness, I would replace it before sailing it, since that stay is relying on it. There's no telling how weak the rest of it is, even if it doesn't show any outwards signs just yet.
 
#3 ·
Since it appears that the rot is outward from the forestay it is not a dire circumstance. The pressures in a sprit are inward, compression. You need to be certain that the rot does NOT continue under the forestay plate or aft of it. That would require immediate remediation. I must say that it is extremely likely that the rot started in the bolt holes for that forestay fitting.

The bowsprit looks homemade and an add on. To me it would seem to be an easy fix to support the mast with the jib halyard attached to a bow cleat, remove the forestay and replace the sprit with teak which is resistant to rot. Design it better to be more uniform and hold an anchor roller. Then reattach everything, caulking it properly as you go. I would do it now for piece of mind.

Tod
Bayfield 36


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#6 ·
I agree. That abomination has got to go. No matter the cost, do it right, in teak and make it utilitarian, but tasteful. Add the anchor roller and think forward to possibly one day having an asymmetrical or drifter.
 
#7 ·
Definitely. Has to go. There is a place called Spaulding boat works in San Francisco which is a school and working wooden boat repair center. I'll give them a call tomorrow. I know it's seems like a DIY project and maybe it can be I don't have a saw.

I might be able to measure and get the plank and rebed it myself. I'm furiously trying to research this. It looks like there are a lot of people that have redone the CD sprit. It was originally white oak.

I don't know how the chainplates are attached. I'll post pictures tomorrow of top and bottom. I'm missing something.

The forestay is on the top of the plank and has six screws through a metal piece. . The bobstay had another metal piece with no screws. I don't know what's holding it on. Hope?

I would think it would be through bolted. The top plate with six bolts through the word and out through the bottom plate. But it doesn't look like that. I must be missing something.

Are the screws screwed in to the bottom plate but don't go all the way through perhaps for aesthetics? I know CD knows how to build boats. I'm just not seeing what is holding it together.

Like I said. I'll post more tomorrow. From what you see it doesn't look safe to sail now? I really want to sail right away. Of course after my last forestay/mast incident I will not sail if it isn't safe. Once I have the boat and am moved on I will poke at it more.

Can I take a needle or awl and poke at it to see where the rot is? The tap test tells it's only at the front. But that's not exactly scientific.

I am excited and nervous all together. I don't know how I will sleep!
 
#71 ·
I know it's seems like a DIY project and maybe it can be I don't have a saw.
Well that's that then.:)

Seriously though, making the judgement between the time, expense and danger to fingers of DIY work on a boat and cost and risk of having a "professional" mess it up is one of the great mysterious of boat ownership.

Good luck!!
 
#8 ·
I was looking at a Downeaster 38 once with bowsprit issues and was told then that they are very expensive to replace. Yours looks quite a bit simpler. As was said earlier, looks like a 2X12 in some good quality hardwood should do the job. I wouldn't even even think about sailing it like that though. It's very likely that incipient rot extends further than you can see.
 
#9 ·
Use a drilling tool or a knife to clean inside the rotten area. If it is not too deep you can clean most of it. Brush some epoxy inside and fill with wood saw dust mixed epoxy. The rot size will not increase any more. This repair will stop the rot but if the rot is deep enough, epoxy will not add extra strength.
 
#10 ·
You could get a spike of some kind and start digging out the rot at least then you will know how far it goes.I would do this before sailing it looks like a very easy fix so dont stress over it.Just dont drop anything in the water and support your mast before you start.
 
#11 ·
Ok. That's a good idea. I can start
Picking at it and see how deep it goes. I might get lucky and it's mostly been cut away and I car seal it with epoxy for now. Spend the money on an autopilot. But we'll see.

I'm no rot expert. So I really can't say if this is bad or minor. I'm definitely thinking low that's why they cut it away in the stair step shape. And it's probably seeps in further since they did that. Why else make a bow sprit this shape?

So yeah. Not having encountered rot before I just did what everyone tells you to do. Tap tap everything. It was pretty obvious when I encountered it. You could totally tell. Tap tap, thud thud.
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
The forestay is on the top of the plank and has six screws through a metal piece. . The bobstay had another metal piece with no screws. I don't know what's holding it on. Hope?

I would think it would be through bolted. The top plate with six bolts through the word and out through the bottom plate. But it doesn't look like that. I must be missing something.

Are the screws screwed in to the bottom plate but don't go all the way through perhaps for aesthetics? I know CD knows how to build boats. I'm just not seeing what is holding it together!
I'm thinking the fitting might be 1 piece that goes through a slot in the wood and the bob stay connects to that. The screws don't need to be bolts in that case as the bob stay exerts equal downward pressure. The wood screws simply keep it in place.

I think I would bite the bullet and replace the board, not do a temporary fix that you will always worry about. It seems like a very easy fix. The onboard end is bolted on, isn't it? Can you get to the nuts? Since you don't have wood working equipment, maybe a friend does? Draw something up full size and have someone cut it for you? Maybe a high school shop class? Make it out of either teak or white oak, either is good.

Tod

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#15 ·
NOB is thing made from construction lumber? (hemlock,fir,spruce) To make it out of teak would be VERY expensive! White oak is a good choice (never red oak) I
Fiberglass and resin on it would not last because of expansion/contraction of the wood.
 
  • Like
Reactions: davidpm
#17 · (Edited)
A couple quick thoughts here; You have gotten some good advice and some pretty poor advice. The good advice included attaching and tensioning your Jib halyard to a strongly attached cleat before poking into the wood and replace the bowsprit before you go sailing.

It is very difficult to properly access a situation like this from photos and without being there to see and touch the sprit. And even if we were trying to sort this out, none of us can begin to tell how good or bad the bowsprit is from your photos since the photos don't show the areas that would be of greatest concern such as the area aft of the forestay above and below the sprit, or the area where the sprit is bolted to the deck. What the photos of the existing repair does tell us is that it is unlikely that the prior owner has been doing careful maintenance.

I would say that it makes no sense to mess with a patch job on that bowsprit. It is throwing good epoxy after bad wood.

Assuming that there aren't more serious problems, replacing a bowsprit like that is comparatively easy. If you don't have the skills to perform that level of work by yourself, and are concerned about even trying to do it yourself, you may not be ready to own a older cruising boat.

You should be able buy a slab of white oak pretty cheaply. You should have a tool kit on board with most of the tools that it would take to build a bowsprit and install a bowsprit. (wrench set, screwdrivers, caulking gun, file, paint brushes, a hacksaw with wood and metal blades, and a hand drill and bits) You can by an inexpensive cross cut handsaw for something in the range of $15.00. I would not bother with teak as a piece this large it is very expensive. I would cut and shape the new sprit using the old sprit as a pattern for locating the bolt holes and getting the butt shape.

I would shape it and cut all slots and bolt holes. I would then prime it with two coats of un-thickened epoxy paying close attention to the end grain, especially in the holes and give it a minimum of 3 coats of varnish or paint. (I prefer varnish so you can monitor the condition of the wood, but varnish requires more frequent recoating.)

While you have the sprit off you should check the deck for delamination in the area where the spit is bolted to the deck as there is likely to be core rot in this area. If so, the core rot should be repaired before the sprit is installer, and at the very least the bolt holes should be 'potted', the fittings rebed.

Doing a repair like this will help to develop or practice a broad range of skills, skills which you should have to own a boat.

Jeff
 
#20 ·
Denise,

I had good results using 2 thin coats epoxy as a primer/sealer on white oak when I built a replacement tiller for my Laser 28. I used the tiller on that boat for 10 years afterward and the finish held up well. I did re-varnish the tiller every couple years.

I would not expect epoxy to adhere to red oak, and prefer prenolic-resorcinol glue as an adhesive with either oak. I would never use red oak on a boat due to its greater tendency to check and rot.

Jeff
 
#21 ·
As Jeff says " FIX IT NOW "

The down side of the risk is too high, another mast going down possibly injuring someone.

Support the mast and get it off. Use it as a pattern and make a new one. If you are not handy any woodshop should be able to cut a piece of lumber to shape in an hour.

This sort of mod [ adding a bowsprit ] is often done to reduce weather helm.
 
#41 ·
As Jeff says " FIX IT NOW "

The down side of the risk is too high, another mast going down possibly injuring someone.
TQA brings up a good point. Perhaps as an offering to the gods on mount Olympus you should fix this puppy asap. Since you've already had bad mast luck you don't need to tempt fate again eh?

Consider it good karma, or your first big installment into the black box.

MedSailor
 
#25 ·
to seal the grain yes, but to coat white oak would be unnecessary imho. smaller parts like a tiller would be less likely to expand/contract under the coating.
 
#28 ·
There was a boat in our marina that had a bowsprit like the one you show, a Pearson of the Alberg vintage I believe. Anyway, he had fittings on the sprit to hold two anchors, a spade that hung under the sprit in the aft position and a danforth that was above the sprit in the forward position. Maybe the one you show was similar.
John
 
#29 ·
North,
Been out the last week or so, so apologies for coming in so late into the conversation. You bought a Cape Dory 28? Are you in the San Francisco area and do you have a car? I don’t recognize the palm trees in the background – are you at Lock Lomond? For alternative boatyards, you can also call KKMI in Richmond or Svendsen’s in Alameda. Both have excellent woodworking shops and do a lot of work for the Master Mariner Boats. Because all of the different vector forces on a sprit, I’d be inclined to have the pros do it (at least have them make the new sprit and you do the deinstall/install). If you are going to do all the work yourself, then McBeath’s in Berkeley is a good place to go for quality hardwoods.
 
#31 ·
North,
Been out the last week or so, so apologies for coming in so late into the conversation. You bought a Cape Dory 28? Are you in the San Francisco area and do you have a car? I don't recognize the palm trees in the background - are you at Lock Lomond? For alternative boatyards, you can also call KKMI in Richmond or Svendsen's in Alameda. Both have excellent woodworking shops and do a lot of work for the Master Mariner Boats. Because all of the different vector forces on a sprit, I'd be inclined to have the pros do it (at least have them make the new sprit and you do the deinstall/install). If you are going to do all the work yourself, then McBeath's in Berkeley is a good place to go for quality hardwoods.
Thanks for the other two options. Spaulding said they have a nice selection of wood, if I bring my piece in, they will find an appropriate piece, where the grain is right and it is structurally sound. He doesn't know whether he has the right piece in teak, the wood guy is out.

He said prices are $25+per some kind of foot. How does that translate to reality? I'm guessing this plank is less than 3 feet by less than one foot.

The boat is in Redwood City/Palo Alto
 
#30 ·
It has been a while since I have posted here but I noticed the subject and I have done this exact repair (Cape Dory 30) so thought that I would throw my thoughts into the mix. The Cape Dory owners site is worth a look too as it has some excellent information and I am pretty sure that I have seen more than 1 how to that included pictures on this very subject.

Most of these boats had a white oak bowsprit originally although some had teak. The dimensions were the same for both despite teak being the weaker material (at least when new). I decided to use white oak for the replacement as I could get a good piece locally. Like you, the problem was that there was rot at the end of the bowsprit. I decided to replace the entire bowsprit before really digging as I also didn't like the stock anchor roller setup either. When I finally did start digging, I found that the rot did not go far and I could have easily cut to 2" beyond the end of the rot and just had a shorter bowsprit.

To start with, I ran one halyard forward to a foredeck cleat and another around the bow under the bobstay fitting under the hull which were then both tensioned. Then I disconnected the forestay and bobstay. I would strongly recommend spraying the nuts on the underside of the foredeck with pb blaster or equivalent once a day for a week before trying to remove them. Once the bolts are removed, the bowsprit is only held on by bedding compound. This proved to be pretty strong stuff so you need to use some patience and make sure not to tear up any gelcoat. In the very bow, there is a kind of mash of resin which can get damaged during the bowsprit removal (mine was fine) so make sure to check it. Once off, the hard part was removing the forstay fitting from the old bowprit. The fitting is made by spartan so you could just buy a new one but with some work, you should be able to reuse the old. The fitting is in 2 pieces, a bottom plate which is tapped for the 6 bolts and has a slot for the bobstay tang and the rest of the fitting which consists of a top plate drilled for 6 bolts with integral tangs on either side for the forstay and bobstay attachments. Getting these bolts out was a real bear. I started with my bit brace and got one or so out. Then my impact driver got another one or two but the others were really stuck. I ended up cutting apart the old bowsprit and then chiseling the wood out from between the two plates. At that point, I used vice grips and heat and then came out although I was expecting to break them and have to drill and tap again.

The bowsprit is really quite simple and you should be able to get the local lumber yard to plane and cut it to size for you. Make sure to round out all of the sharp corners so that your paint/varnish sticks well. You should fit it to the deck as there is some crown which can be done with a plane or a sander and 36 grit paper. Make sure to install the forstay fitting in the same place or your mast rake will be off. To do the mounting holes, I clamped the bowsprit to the foredeck and marked the holes from inside the anchor locker then drilled them from the bottom up. I would strongly suggest that you install a new anchor roller. You can buy a stainless one and bolt it to the top of your new bowsprit or if you want a really nice looking one, buy the spartan bronze one which does take some more work to install. Of course, you should always use good practices like proper bedding, etc.

This really isn't that hard provided that you take your time. I started on a saturday and reinstalled the varnished bowsprit the next saturday with probably 20 hours invested including varnishing. The only tools you will need are a bit brace with a flat bit, the correct size wrench/socket, a sander, a drill, bits, plug cutter, countersink and a jigsaw (to cut the hole for the bobstay tang). It would be a lot easier to make the plugs and drill the bowsprit if you have a drill press but a steady hand could do without.
 
#32 ·
Awesome, thanks!

Explain this

The fitting is in 2 pieces, a bottom plate which is tapped for the 6 bolts and has a slot for the bobstay tang and the rest of the fitting which consists of a top plate drilled for 6 bolts with integral tangs on either side for the forstay and bobstay attachments.

What is holding it in? Integral tangs? I don't understand how a piece of wood, even a new, unwritten one, could support a chainplate, without them being through bolted together.
 
#34 ·
You can think of it as 2 flat plates, one on either side of the bowsprit, that are bolted together with 6 bolts. The plate on the top has screw clearance holes that have been countersunk so that the screw heads sit flush and the plate on the bottom is tapped so that you don't need nuts. The top plate is also what the forestay and bobstay attach to. To do this, the casting actually includes pieces on the top and bottom of this top plate that are perpendicular to the pate so that if you looked at it end on, it would look like a T. You can easily see this perpendicular piece on top as it is out in the air with your forestay attached to it. The one on the bottom sticks all of the way through the bowsprit (there is a cutout that you will see once you get things removed) and through the bottom plate (this also has a cutout that you can see if you look real close, the plate and the tang are actually not the same piece). The bottom plate is only there as something to provide a reaction force to keep the top plate tight to the bowsprit.

The part can be found here Stemhead Fittings | Robinhood Marine Center . It is called a "stemhead for bowsprit" by spartan.

I hope that this helps.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top