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Spinnaker Pole for Genoa Downwind

10K views 34 replies 14 participants last post by  minigran 
#1 ·
Hi All,

My Allmand 31 came with this "monster" spinnaker pole that I took home cause I said "I'll never use this thing". But after some light air sailing this past weekend and fighting to keep "wing and wing" flying, I'm having second thoughts about taking it back to the boat.

I've watched several You Tube videos and see every combination possible for rigging. I can surmise that I need an uphaul, a downhaul and a pole guy. Is that enough? Too much? I watched a video where the guy had yet another line from the clew of the genoa back to a winch.

Suggestions for this novice pole user? Thanks.

Dave
 
#3 · (Edited)
Easiest way is to just attach one end to the mast and the other to the clew - no topping lift or guys needed.
This will get you 95% there.

Next best way is to attach one end to the sheet rather than the clew. Here's where a topping lift will help if the pole weighs too much relative to the wind pressure on the sails and is dipping towards the water. It also helps you to position the clew (and hence trim the genoa) to be where you want it to be.
 
#4 ·
Typically spinnaker poles are too short to pole out a '150' genoa.. it will 'work' but won't be ideal. An extendable whisker pole is a better idea. Spinn poles tend to be heavier too. I wouldn't expect you need the downhaul/uphaul rigged to use as a whisker pole - unless the pole is simply to heavy to be supported by the sail itself.
 
#5 · (Edited)
loads on reaching pole much less then spin pole. Spin pole may be over kill. Unless its carbon fiber also heavy and a PIA. May want to jury rig a light pole just for the function you want. Then just need some way to attach to boat ( some just clip them to toe rail) and a way to keep it near clew of sail. I have full blown set up with telescoping CF spin pole. Takes a while to set up - lower pole off mast before starting- topping lift first-then fore guy- then after guy- then roll up genny- then clip pole around sheet- then deploy pole and set lines so its where it needs to be- then unroll genny and set sheet to correct length. Can do with the boat on AP by myself with trepidation but takes awhile. Generally don't bother unless its a long board. Still if going down wind wing and wing with the solent in big wind very much worth doing. Other wise not so much. Just knocking around may just drop the main if wind abaft the mast.

On small boats have even seen boat hooks used for this purpose. Did this myself when I had a small Cape Dory. Clove hitch to secure bottom end to mid ship cleat. pointy end through clew sheet grommet. Pole clicked out to right length. Worked fine and cheap and cheerful.
 
#7 ·
#8 · (Edited)
Forespar's site is a good place to start...

Whisker Poles

I like going with the whole 9 yards - pole lift, foreguy, and afterguy... sounds more complicated, but it actually makes the use of a pole with a furling headsail simpler, and far safer... The advantage of being able to leave the pole deployed, while perhaps furling the jib for a brief course change or jibe, or to douse in a squall, can pay huge dividends when cruising...

Sailing wing & wing can be extremely pleasant, I'm always amazed how infrequently I see it being done... On this particular day running the long, arrow-straight channel on the Indian River, I was passed by 5 or 6 larger boats, all motoring DDW...

Presumably, their full enclosures prevented their diesel exhaust from wafting back into the cockpit :)

 
#9 · (Edited)
The folks who want to sell marine things to you try to make this more complicated and expensive on their YouTube videos than it needs to be.

I carry a Forespar extendable whisker pole (bought used for $100 on Craigslist) and a fully rigged spinnaker pole (bought used for $200) for the spinnaker. The whisker pole is good for running dead down wind and for broad reaching. It is fast and easy to set up when needed. The 10'-18' model would be right for your boat.

I question whether you need all the goodies for a whisker pole, particularly for close coastal or inland cruising, where you rarely hold the same course in the same conditions for any extended period of time. On the other hand, you really should learn how to fly a symmetrical spinnaker on your boat if you do any kind of cruising, because you will spend less time motoring and more time sailing with one.

(If you divide the compass into quadrants of 90 degrees each, you will discover that you should spend 50% of your time either beating into the wind (25%) or running downwind (25%); it actually seems more like 90% of the time. I think that is why so many cruisers end up motoring.)

It is easy enough to put a spare halyard at the top of the mast and/or lash a block for a topping lift at the spreaders. It is also easy to install a pad eye in the middle of the foredeck for a foreguy and extra blocks for the sheets back to the cockpit. You probably don't need it however for the whisker pole:

Broad reach:



Dead downwind:

 
#11 ·
So often I agree with Jon it's scary. A couple tricks I was taught.
If DDW in light air and not flying a spin,asymmetric or parasail ease the halyard and tighten the leach line before deploying the genny.
If wind builds you can just roll the genny in some without trouble if you gone the whole 9 yards. Pole usually doesn't need much adjustment if any and it's in stable position regardless of what the sail is doing.
Have super long genny sheets. Then you can leave pole out ( now on wrong side) for short bit and go back to original course with out hassle. Find rolling genny in then gybe then back out works just fine.
One last suggestion. Don't cleat fore and after guys. Run them through clutches instead. May want to let them off in a hurry ( knock down, broach, urgent gybe etc.)
 
#12 ·
I rig my pole as described by Jon because it is the only safe and seaman like way to rig it. It keeps the pole's stability independent of the genoa and genoa sheets.

All the other methods are an accident waiting to happen, they work fine in good conditions, on small boats, but not off-shore in a squall.

I fly a 900sq ft genoa on a 25 ft, 90lb pole. In an emergency I can reef the genoa, get the pole safe and secure on the deck and the staysail flying in 2 minutes without leaving the cockpit... all without help.

Every time you utilize a sail configuration you should ask yourself--- how will I get back to a man-over-board single handed, under sail in less than 5 minutes.
 
#13 · (Edited)
York please tell me how you do it. I can and do roll the genny up from the cockpit and can let the solent out from the cockpit but have to go forward to release the pole from the sheet and then go to the mast and pull the line that raises the pole up the mast so I can attach the other end to the ring at the base of the mast. Can't figure out a way to do this from the cockpit. When its bumpy find its great help to have a second person there to control the pole as you ease its topping lift as you pull it up the mast otherwise the thing swings around. Get rid of the guys last. Leave them clipped to end of pole so I have something to control it as it comes in.
 
#16 ·
Cf poles are very light but strong. Still ackward to handle. Can do everything from cockpit except getting rid of it and putting back on mast. Also have to go forward if I want to set it up on the other side. Guess I'm lazy. Rather use the parasailor with no pole ddw in less than 25 that I can do with just me on deck. Usually when the pole goes up it stays up for awhile.
 
#21 ·
Well it was a monster when I first saw it. This 31 is the largest sailboat I've ever been aboard. OK, after looking at it tonight (it's here at the house), it's pretty little compared to yours and not as big as I remember it from 8 months ago. It's 12' and 2 1/2" diameter.
 
#19 ·
Hey Alex,

I have a 100% (on now) and a 150 due back from Doyle any day now. My pole is 12', and I have all spinnaker lines and tackle on the boat. Just because I want to try it, I think I'll leave the 100 on for a bit and try out the existing pole. I'm also thinking about getting brave and try the spinnaker when I take along a couple extra able bodies. :eek:

Dave
 
#23 ·
A whisker pole is only needed in light air conditions, when the wind pressure isn't enough to lift the sailcloth and hold it in place. IMO, there's no reason to set a whisker pole in a squall or in small craft warning conditions. Using a pole in those conditions risks breaking the pole.

Strong winds will spread out an un-poled genoa and hold it there and keep it filled, unless you trim it badly. If you ease the jibsheet too far forward, the wind will fill the genoa and spill out of it over the leech of the sail. When it spills over the leech, it will attach itself to the back side of the sail, and create a back-pressure, backwinding the leech of the genoa. When that happens, the genoa will collapse, and then it will re-fill and re-open with a bang. When that happens, you should trim the jibsheet further aft. Then, when the wind fills the sail to overflowing, the excess wind will spill off the luff of the genoa, instead of the leech. As a result, the leech of the sail will not be backwinded, and the sail will not fill and collapse and refill with a bang repeatedly.

The only time I might consider using a whisker pole in strong winds is when racing in a sheltered area, such as on a river or a small inland lake or harbor, where the waves can't grow very big. When sailing wing and wing, you have to steer accurately, because, if you steer too far in one direction, the jib collapses, and if you steer too far in the other direction, you risk an unintentional gybe. In strong winds, choppy or rolling waves can make it nearly impossible to steer the boat with the necessary accuracy.
 
#25 ·
A whisker pole is only needed in light air conditions, when the wind pressure isn't enough to lift the sailcloth and hold it in place. IMO, there's no reason to set a whisker pole in a squall or in small craft warning conditions. Using a pole in those conditions risks breaking the pole.

Strong winds will spread out an un-poled genoa and hold it there and keep it filled, unless you trim it badly. If you ease the jibsheet too far forward, the wind will fill the genoa and spill out of it over the leech of the sail. When it spills over the leech, it will attach itself to the back side of the sail, and create a back-pressure, backwinding the leech of the genoa. When that happens, the genoa will collapse, and then it will re-fill and re-open with a bang. When that happens, you should trim the jibsheet further aft. Then, when the wind fills the sail to overflowing, the excess wind will spill off the luff of the genoa, instead of the leech. As a result, the leech of the sail will not be backwinded, and the sail will not fill and collapse and refill with a bang repeatedly.

The only time I might consider using a whisker pole in strong winds is when racing in a sheltered area, such as on a river or a small inland lake or harbor, where the waves can't grow very big. When sailing wing and wing, you have to steer accurately, because, if you steer too far in one direction, the jib collapses, and if you steer too far in the other direction, you risk an unintentional gybe. In strong winds, choppy or rolling waves can make it nearly impossible to steer the boat with the necessary accuracy.
Well, I've had pretty good luck running with poles in a bit more breeze...

Ran this boat north from Trinidad last spring, and sailed from the Mona Passage up to the top of Exuma Sound, then virtually all of the way from Canaveral to Hatteras behind the passage of TS Andrea with this setup. Mostly breezes from 18-25, serious squalls south of the Bahamas at night, and even though we had to cobble together fore and afterguys using dock lines and spare anchor rode, it worked pretty damn well, and we made a very fast passage...



And with my own little tub, I've had success running off under staysail alone in sportier conditions, poled out with a dedicated shorter pole for that sail... Again, I think the key is stabilizing the pole with a lift, and fore and afterguy, that's worked well for me, so far...



And, as always, some excellent advice from Beth Leonard & Evans Starzinger:

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Downwindsail.pdf

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/JibBridle.pdf
 
#26 ·
Jon, these discussions are always fact specific. We were flying twin 150s in 18-25 kts of wind with one of the headsails poled out. After we broke the pole, we learned that we could fly both sails poleless and maintain about the same speed. That told us that we should have flown the headsails poleless in the first place. If we had, we could have avoided breaking the pole. By comparison, you were flying a single, smaller headsail, which put a smaller load on the pole, but we were undoubtedly making much better speed. That's why I don't generally like using a pole in strong winds. If you don't have to use it, then you will avoid the risk of breaking it.
 
#27 ·
Sure, every boat and situation is different, no doubt...

However, I'm pretty certain we wouldn't have been able to carry that headsail I pictured - keeping it filled sailing DDW wing & wing for 650 miles beyond the Mona Passage in variable/squally conditions, and after heading up 20 degrees or so to make it thru the Mayaguana Passage - without the use of the pole :)
 
#28 ·
jon in your first pic...you have an "afterguy" or line runnung aft(from the pole) against a stanchion back to a block or whatever to tighten it up, or is that the sheet?

did you cause any damage from doing this?

the forces involved can be massive, I always avoid touching any part of the lifelines with rigging when possible

I know you set this up as an emergency per your post but thought others should acknowledge this issue...


nice pics btw
 
#29 · (Edited)
jon in your first pic...you have an "afterguy" or line runnung aft(from the pole) against a stanchion back to a block or whatever to tighten it up, or is that the sheet?

did you cause any damage from doing this?

the forces involved can be massive, I always avoid touching any part of the lifelines with rigging when possible

I know you set this up as an emergency per your post but thought others should acknowledge this issue...

nice pics btw
LOL! I've posted this pic several times before, and have been waiting for someone to notice that... Congrats, good eye, looks like you're the first :)

yeah, that's not an ideal setup, by any means - but it probably looks a bit worse than it was :) That pic was taken somewhere between the DR and the Silver Bank. Initially, the jib sheet had a fair lead thru the lifeline gate (the jib lead car was as far aft on the track as it would go). The only place to fix the afterguy was to the stern cleat. But we had to temporarily head up a bit to try to keep clear of some shipping, and in doing so eased the pole forward a bit, as you can see by the slackness of the foreguy and lazy sheet. In any event, those H-R stanchions are pretty stout, I think it would have handled a far greater load than that...

That H-R is a true ocean thoroughbred, but it was somewhat shocking how poorly it was set up for handling anything other than working sails in their normal configuration. You'd really have to get creative to figure out how to fly a spinnaker, or Code 0, for example...

Every time I sail a boat with those pretty teak rails, with no attachment points for snatch blocks or similar, I become more firmly convinced that the perforated aluminum toerail is one of the greatest inventions ever, and one of the most practical things one can have on a boat :)
 
#30 ·
figured it was a hallberg rassy

on one of our trips out we met a brazillian couple on a REALLY REALLY modern and swan like(or better) HR, awesome interior with leather couches and seats all beautful and such, nav station, man...it was a beauty...

I really like the glass windshield like built in semi dodger

I cant remember the vintage but im guessing late 90s or something

really a beatiful boat

ps TOE RAILS YOU SAY? couldnt agree more...we just rebed ours(perforated aluminum the whole length of the decks) on my islander 36 and it was 96 bolts per side...kind of a massive job...we also resealed the hull joint at the same time...its good I had workers do it cause I would of lost sight of the goal of finishing other projects the first 5 bolts or so! jajaja
 
#31 ·
The main purpose (at least for me) for running an afterguy on a whisker pole is to prevent it from banging into the headstay when gybing or taking in the jib. Funny, we will go down to whiskerpoling when the winds get higher than our spinnaker’s polars. I’ve whisker poled in winds above 30kts with no ill effect (knock wood).

Regarding Jon’s beautiful photo: Although not the fairest of leads, I thought that the lead would fair up when the pole tip went forward, but oops!, the guy is on the wrong side of the gate… But then the lead wouldn’t be any fairer on the other side owing to the support brace on the other side of the stanchion. Isn’t that the way things go… Someone on the internet will always find that one little “flaw” in an otherwise great photo.

I have to dig up a photo of some pulled up perforated toe rail on a Nordic 44 when a little 3/16 Dacron “fuse” line in a preventer failed to do its job and break under load when we broached during a squall in the middle of the night (why does it always happen to me on the midwatch?)
 
#32 ·
uhmmm that would be a badly installed perforated rail then! jajaja

for that to happen on my boat per se you would rip out one side of the hull and deck or try to haul the boat up one one side only with a crane

that is an important point however...

not all perforarted rails are installed the same way...

im glad mine is through bolted all the length of it
 
#34 ·
ooooooooh oh, I wasnt trying to argue bud...I also wasnt trying to find a fault in jons picture

It just so happens I was the first to point it out! he seems happy about it!

now regarding a toerail popping out! I wanna see that

ps. im just playing devils advocate here...im pretty sure its possible...anything is really

so I agree!

peace
 
#35 ·
For WOW I made a 2" PVC whisker pole that's adjustable and weighs nothing. 2 PVC pipes from Lowes, 2 end caps opened up to accept 2 large clam hooks from Agri Supply here in North Carolina and a spring pin to hold adjustment.

I sail to Okracoke from Washington NC, 64 nm and its a course of 120 which is straight downwind the whole way in light summer air. I clip the pole to the base of the boom vang and to the sheet. Unclip the sheet then the vang 12 hours later.
 
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