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Discussion Starter #1
My Corsair got swamped during Hurricane Fay due to design flaws, and it is now being fixed and refurbished. The issue was that a rubber boot came off a 1.5 inch pipe in the stern where the rudder control rod passed through permitting water to wash into the stern compartment. The compartment did not drain to the bilge and had no bilge pump, so it collected water and dropped the stern until the pipe met the waterline. At that point enough water entered to reach the bilge which could not handle the volume of water. Additionally, the amas took on water through an un-valved vent hole, speeding the flooding process. The rest is history.

I do not feel qualified to determine whether the manufacturer putting drainage holes in that compartment to the bilge is better than installing an additional bilge pump, along with their adding pop-valves to the amas, etc. Since some of you may have used surveyors or are surveyors, I would appreciate any recommendations for choosing a surveyor and what I can expect from them. Thanks in advance.
 

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AEOLUS II
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You're considering hiring one to find out if it is better to put drainage holes in that compartment to the bilge is better than installing an additional bilge pump, along with their adding pop-valves to the amas, etc.??

I'd just ask folks here and elsewhere what they did.

It's a shame the people handling the claim didn't give you some input on how to possibly avoid the problem in the future though.

They have a stake in the matter as well.
 

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Retired and happy
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I'd just ask folks here and elsewhere what they did.
I agree, I don't see this as a situation where you need to pay for a surveyor. Either you are going to do the work yourself, in which case there will be plenty of advice available, or you are going to get someone to do it for you, in which case you choose someone who knows what they are doing......:)

Stuart
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ummm, uhhhh, how do I put this tactfully.

Your boat was in a named storm.
Got damaged.
Lemme guess, the insurance isn't going to pay...
Now, being the inventive personality type, you're looking to claim that it was a Mfr. defect due to some hokey "lookie here, this is what caused the big kafuffle and because the boat builder didn't take this lil thingy right here into consideration WHILE IN A FRICKIN' HURRICANE"
I'm gunna sue.

Here is what you can expect from a surveyor.
Nothing. Not one with any scruples anyway.

Here is how I came to this opinion. Please take note of the operative words in your posting.
You wrote:
"My Corsair got swamped during Hurricane Fay due to design flaws,

Yeah? Who says?
and it is now being fixed and refurbished. The issue was that a rubber boot came off a 1.5 inch pipe in the stern where the rudder control rod passed through permitting water to wash into the stern compartment. The compartment did not drain to the bilge and had no bilge pump, so it collected water and dropped the stern until the pipe met the waterline. At that point enough water entered to reach the bilge which could not handle the volume of water. Additionally, the amas took on water through an un-valved vent hole, speeding the flooding process. The rest is history."

I do not feel qualified to determine whether the manufacturer putting drainage holes in that compartment to the bilge is better than installing an additional bilge pump,
So, I'm looking to hire a cheap expert that will put his reputation on the line and possibly tie him up in court to testify.

along with their adding pop-valves to the amas, etc. Since some of you may have used surveyors or are surveyors, I would appreciate any recommendations for choosing a surveyor and what I can expect from them. Thanks in advance.
"
Actually, the insurance did pay, Corsair is attempting to fix the flaws, which the dealer agreed about, and I am not trying to bring on a suit. I just want to make sure that the fixes are sufficient to prevent this again. The damage could have happened while sailing with a following sea.

I heard that not all marine surveyors would be able to assess design issues and thought that people on this forum might have some good advice. I did not intend to imply anything else or dump on marine surveyors, and I am sorry if that is the way my query came across.
 

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Retired and happy
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Ummm, uhhhh, how do I put this tactfully.[/I]"
Well, you sure failed to achieve that particualr goal! I have to say that this is the kind of knee-jerk and somewhat crass response which will drive people away from the forums.

I hope that you are still with us, Triquetra. Most of us are a bit more thoughtful about our responses.

Stuart
 

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Telstar 28
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Just curious, how large is this stern compartment, and why doesn't it drain itself. IMHO, having the stern compartment drain into the main bilge is probably a mistake. Instead of flooding just the stern compartment, you could flood the entire boat.

The rudder on my boat, a Telstar 28, is isolated in its own compartment and any leaks in that compartment don't really affect the boat's ability to float as a whole—certainly not enough to sink the craft. The two rudder quadrants are isolated from the interior of the main hull completely. The compartment has drains, allowing any water that does get in to drain overboard—preventing the compartment from filling up with water and causing the problems you experienced.

Might it not be a better idea to install drains to limit the amount of water that can collect in the compartment instead of allowing it to drain into the main bilge??
 

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AEOLUS II
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I heard that not all marine surveyors would be able to assess design issues...
You are correct.

A Naval Architect or structural engineer who happens to be a surveyor may be what you are looking for.

Meanwhile, there are some tri-maran owners here who may have some ideas.
 

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cp
I think you made a few assumptions early on...what the op posted MIGHT indicate his desire to sue but not all the facts are in yet.
So you made a few assumptions as well and here we are...or maybe we aren't here.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I hope that you are still with us, Triquetra. Most of us are a bit more thoughtful about our responses.

Stuart
I am still here :). I know that many people would be looking for a law suit, and I would agree with the response in that case. I have learned a lot from the many experienced sailors and boaters on this site, and I have a lot more to learn. I just want to be sure that when I am boating with family and friends that I did everything I could to keep them out of danger and give them a great boating experience. I know that I need advice of someone with better background than myself to assess whether my bilge pumps, drainage, etc. is sufficient for my boat. I believe that an appropriate surveyor would have that knowledge.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Might it not be a better idea to install drains to limit the amount of water that can collect in the compartment instead of allowing it to drain into the main bilge??
That is why I feel that I need an independent assessment. This compartment lowered the stern enough to put the un-valved ama vents under water, which lowered the stern more.
 

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Telstar 28
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Another option is to glass some foam into the bottom of the compartment to create buoyancy that can't be flooded. If the top of the glassed-in foam is above the waterline, and the top of the foam angled so that the glass acts to drain water aft, you can then install a drain to allow water to drain from the compartment without the need for a vent.

I am also curious as to why the amas have open vents on them??
That strikes me as somewhat foolish, since if you sail the boat hard, the amas could easily get submerged enough to let water into the amas via the vents. If the vents are high enough to be out of the water most of the time, once they're submerged, they're high enough to let most of the air and therefore buoyancy out of the amas. That's pretty damn stupid IMHO. The amas on the Telstar 28 are sealed with water-tight hatches or inspection ports.

AFAIK, the amas on the older Corsairs I have sailed upon did not have vents in them. What purpose are the vents supposed to serve???

That is why I feel that I need an independent assessment. This compartment lowered the stern enough to put the un-valved ama vents under water, which lowered the stern more.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I am also curious as to why the amas have open vents on them?? That strikes me as somewhat foolish, since if you sail the boat hard, the amas could easily get submerged enough to let water into the amas via the vents. If the vents are high enough to be out of the water most of the time, once they're submerged, they're high enough to let most of the air and therefore buoyancy out of the amas. That's pretty damn stupid IMHO. The amas on the Telstar 28 are sealed with water-tight hatches or inspection ports.

AFAIK, the amas on the older Corsairs I have sailed upon did not have vents in them. What purpose are the vents supposed to serve???
I agree with you, SD. Until this mishap, I did not know that the metal louver over the vent had no valve mechanism. I was told that the vent was to prevent pressure buildup which could flex the amas, producing microcracks that reduce the ama integrity, and possibly result in an actual crack in the ama. The 27's had a spring-loaded valve that let air out but prevented water from coming into the ama. I am not sure what they did with the newer 37s.
 

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I am still here :).
Excellent! And I see that there has already been some good advice for you on this thread, especially from Sailingdog who (as you may know) is almost always worth listening to - when he is talking about boats, that is!

Stuart
 

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Telstar 28
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Tri-

Can you post a photo of the compartment and the stern tube area... :) I don't have easy access to a Corsair, or I'd look at it myself to see what I can come up with as a solution for you. :) I'm thinking that the foam and glass I suggested above might be the best solution. Another option might be to close off most of the area by glassing it off and creating a buoyancy tank there. You could even put an inspection port on it and use it for storing light items, if the space is convenient to access... if not, just leave it as a buoyancy tank.
 

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Triq :

There are very few ships under the sun that can survive a tropical hurricane unattended. It is an utter tempest that beats the hell out of the ship, shot-blasted by water spray, heeled by the mast wind loading, and a fierce chop splashing water everywhere, hour upon hour. You cannot be with her under these circumstances. In normal use, the water ingress would probably be seen when the seal leaked and you could correct it, or live with it. This time the ship sank under the water and wind attack.
It may not be a flaw in the design.
Do you have a picture or two?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Triq :

There are very few ships under the sun that can survive a tropical hurricane unattended. It is an utter tempest that beats the hell out of the ship, shot-blasted by water spray, heeled by the mast wind loading, and a fierce chop splashing water everywhere, hour upon hour. You cannot be with her under these circumstances. In normal use, the water ingress would probably be seen when the seal leaked and you could correct it, or live with it. This time the ship sank under the water and wind attack.
It may not be a flaw in the design.
Do you have a picture or two?
I have tried to up load a couple of photos, but I am having problems. The files are small enough, but I keep getting an error for uploading my jpg files. Is there a trick to do it?
 
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