SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
3 rudder failures out of 103 boats. Consider that for hundreds of miles they were power reaching in 20 -30 knots. Lateral loads on the rudder must be unbelievable. On power reaches highly ballasted boats have extremely high loads and an occasional higher shock load as they fall off waves. I’m surprised there aren’t more rudder failures.
 
It's only a 635 nm passage.
On my passages I usually calculate it on "multiples of Sydney-Hobarts".
My most recent passage was 5 Sydney-Hobarts. I have had a few at 5+. I consider a passage nearly finished when it's less than 1 Sydney-Hobart. In fact I never calculate distance to go, of miles done till I am under 635nms. Before that I'm just "at sea". I sure don't say I've done 1,000 miles, I have 2000 mike's to go and mid-way will be next Wednesday. That's just BS. 😊

My point in multiples of Sydney Hobarts is I realise that a passage cruising you just can't break anything. Nothing. You can't bust a rudder 3% of every 635nms of a 3,200nm passage. You just can't break it. And if you do you have to save your own bacon. Because it's likely not going to be an easy insurance claim if u abandon a boat at sea that's still viable. But mostly I'm not covered at sea.
You can't just "Retire" 😂😂😂 There's no Eden to pull into and hit the pub!
I'm not saying these Sydney Hobart sailors are Nancy-Boys. I'm not. It's the toughest race in the world for normal boats. But the way it's done is unsustainable for a cruiser IMHO.
I know many people who have done 30 or 40 Sydney-Hobarts but have never crossed an ocean (or done that same number of Mackinac races but never been to sea).

I look at my little old boat and compare it to their slick sleds with sails worth the same as my whole boat doing 635nms in 2.5 days. They're amazing. But so is my boat 😍 it might take me 3 times as long but I guarantee you I'd get there with a far less than 3% rudder failure rate.

Mark
 
One of the retirements for a broken rudder was a Sydney 39 Cruiser, which according the the brochure, "The Sydney 39 Cruiser Racer is equipped to be highly competitive on the race course yet remain at heart: a blue water cruiser". Probably shouldn't be loosing it's rudder. I totally agree that, otherwise, we shouldn't be getting too concerned about racing boats having equipment failures. Hey, at least they aren't being chewed off by deep-sea monsters as in Portugal and Spain.
 
When I see lists of boats that drop out of a race, I try to place that information into some kind of perspective. It is pretty rare that there is adequate information to understand what really happened. Sometimes there is just enough that some conjecture may be useful. Often this conjecture is simply a SWAG without the science part.

Before I take a WAG at this. I will start by saying that I am not trying to justify these failures but, by the same token, I do understand why these types of failures happen and see them as being par for the course. I suggest that it is important to understand that these boats are pushed very hard. In all conditions, they carry way more sail than any sensible cruiser would dare carry in those same conditions. Crew weight on the rail greatly increases the rig loads. These boats are kept at speed no matter what the conditions, which means they are launched off waves and come down hard on their topsides, hitting the keel and rudder solidly against the water when they land...The force of the landing whipping the rig, rudder and keel one way then the other as the boat regains buoyancy and righting moment. Those impacts violently try to whip the sails, masts and booms off the boat and pull the standing rigging out of the deck. With low stretch control lines, every impact load (whether from collisions with waves or waves filling the sails) is transferred solidly into the boat. The boats and crews get beaten mercilessly.

For the mid-sized and smaller boats, at least one account described the course becoming a high wind beat into steep breaking seas. That is brutal stuff.

But also, by and large, the boats in question predominantly are purpose built race boats. Even the so-called racer-cruisers are race focused designs. In comparison to cruising boats, modern race boats are engineered much more intensively with greatly reduced safety factors relative to those that would normally be applied to a coastal cruiser, let alone those applied to boat that is a purpose built long distance, offshore cruising design. This reduction in the safety factors comes with an understanding that these boats will be pushed very hard, but will require much more frequent and detailed inspections, and a whole lot more intensive maintenance than would be expected of a cruising boat.

In that same way that the owner of a race boat expects to replace sails and rigging on a routine basis; rudder replacements, rudder bearing replacements, and any repairs to internal structure are just another line item to a competitive campaign.

Adding to that, while race boats start out as being engineered to a minimum safety factor, Australian racers are notorious for 'optimizing' their boats. That often means adding more sail area, more weight in the bulb, a longer sprit, or a deeper keel. And each of those optimizations add greatly to the stresses felt by the boat; added stresses that the boat was never originally engineered to withstand.

When I look at the list of retirements, its a mixed bag. Broken booms and goosenecks may be the result of poor engineering, poor maintenance, or operator error (such as over tightening the vang, or a uncontrolled crash jibe, or perhaps dipping a boom end in the water at speed with a preventer rigged, etc.). Losing a rudder, may also be the result of poor engineering, poor maintenance, poor build quality, being pushed too hard, or hitting something. The broken bowsprit and stem fitting apparently was the result of a collision between two boats.

(On the lost rudder thing and solely as a point of reference- I almost lost my rudder a dozen years ago when my steering went out and I rigged the emergency tiller. During the previous haul-out we had removed and rebuilt the rudder, and replaced the bushings. When the rudder was reinstalled and the various parts were reassembled, the key between the emergency tiller base fitting and the rudder post was left out of the keyway. Every time I turned the emergency tiller, the fitting rotated and with each cycle, turned the thrust nut that kept the rudder from dropping out of the boat. With each back and forth swings of the tiller that nut was being loosened. It was only luck that I happened to notice that happening and was able to keep from having the nut come off and the rudder drop out the bottom of the boat potentially taking a piece of hull with it.)

Looking at the age of the boats, one thing jumps out. The retirees seem to be either almost new boats (Beneteau 40 and the Sydney 39) or older race boats that are listed as having done a slew of racing. Newer boats may not be fully sorted out, but also may have other issues. I can't speak to the Beneteau 40, but for example the Sydney 39 is listed as being modified. I won't speculate on how it was modified and whether the mods have any impact on the rudder failure, but the pictures show a longer than standard sprit and a square top mainsail, neither of which appear on drawings for a stock Sydney 39. Regarding the older boats, the unknowns are how hard they were used and abused, how carefully they were maintained, and how far they were modified from the original design assumptions.

But before this becomes a modern race boat criticism thread, I would point out that high attrition rates are not the sole province of modern race boats. Out of 32 skippers/boats that started the Golden Globe, only 7 of these traditional cruising boats are still racing (and one of those may drop out due to a broken bowsprit that endangers his rig.)

Jeff
.
 
I had to reply to MarkofSeaLife. Hubby won the Sydney-Hobart overall on Rosebud in 2007 in one of those sleds with a crew of 16 very capable strong young men. In November he and I (along with two older gents) sailed down the east coast of the USA on our circa 1991 45 foot Little Harbor. Almost the whole way we reached in 20-30+ kts of wind. It was not comfortable. One crew got sick twice (once inside and once outside, thank god), and our dog got sick once. (I, as sewer rat, had to clean up the messes:ugh.) We weren’t offshore ever more than 20 miles. At one point I was saying, Let’s sell this f&*()ing boat!” At the same time, hubby was saying, “This is AWESOME!” (Two days after the end of the voyage, after I caught up on my sleep, I wanted to go out to sea again.) He loved the new challenge of ocean sailing short handed without the safety net of a crew of 16 professionals, a bunch of racing yachts, retiring, on board satellite weather, on board weatherman, etc. He loves navigating and problem solving. (We did hire a weather prediction service and had cell phone access most of the way.) It wasn’t quite a crossing but we were on our own more than most ocean races. That said, he has done (and won) the Newport-Bermuda and the Transpac among others. His hardest races were: St. Pete to Isla de Mujeres (during an unpredicted gulf tropical storm), Fastnet, and The Middle Sea where the mixed seas around Stromboli had huge waves and coming down on one of them broke the cheapest replaceable part on a diagonal on the mast to spreader and led to a catastrophic dismasting. They had even ultra-sounded the mast before the season and it was sound. It was a little O fastener somewhere. Hope I didn’t bore you. But I agree that ocean crossing as a cruiser is a different animal than racing. Racing is good preparation and you learn a lot about sailing and systems, navigating, etc. But cruising is its own challenge. He was getting bored with racing the same courses. I’m really glad he is finding cruising to be ”AWESOME.” (Btw, he considered our trip from RI to FL = roughly 3 Sydney Hobarts and called it a good shake down cruise.)
 
When I see lists of boats that drop out of a race, I try to place that information into some kind of perspective. It is pretty rare that there is adequate information to understand what really happened. Sometimes there is just enough that some conjecture may be useful. Often conjecture is simply a SWAG without the science part.

Before I take a WAG at this. I will start by saying that I am not trying to justify these failures but, by the same token, I do understand why these types of failures happen and see them as being par for the course. I suggest that it is important to understand that these boats are pushed very hard. In all conditions, they carry way more sail than any sensible cruiser would dare carry in those same conditions. Crew weight on the rail greatly increases the rig loads. These boats are kept at speed no matter what the conditions, which means they are launched off waves and come down hard on their topsides, and hitting the keel and rudder solidly against the water when they land;. the force of the landing whipping the rig, rudder and keel one way then the other as the boat regains buoyancy and righting moment. Those impacts violently try to whip the sails, masts and booms off the boat and pull the standing rigging out of the deck. With low stretch control lines, every impact load (whether from collisions with waves or waves filling the sails) is transferred solidly into the boat. The boats and crews get beaten mercilessly.

For the mid-sized and smaller boats, at least one account described the course becoming a high wind beat into steep breaking seas. That is brutal stuff.

But also, by and large, the boats in question predominantly are purpose built race boats. Even the so-called racer-cruisers are race focused designs. In comparison to cruising boats, modern race boats are engineered much more intensively with greatly reduced safety factors relative to those that would normally be applied to a coastal cruiser, let alone those applied to boat purpose built long distance, offshore cruising design. This reduction in the safety factors comes with an understanding that these boats will be pushed very hard, but will require much more frequent and detailed inspections, and a whole lot more intensive maintenance than would be expected of a cruising boat.

In that same way that the owner of a race boat expects to replace sails and rigging on a routine basis; rudder replacements, rudder bearing replacements, and any repairs to internal structure are just another line item to a competitive campaign.

Adding to that, while race boats start out as being engineered to a minimum safety factor, Australian racers are notorious for 'optimizing' their boats. That often means adding more sail area, more weight in the bulb, a longer sprit, or a deeper keel. And each of those optimizations add greatly to the stresses felt by the boat; added stresses that the boat was never originally engineered to withstand.

When I look at the list of retirements, its a mixed bag. Broken booms and goosenecks may be the result of poor engineering, poor maintenance, or operator error (such as over tightening the vang, or a uncontrolled crash jibe, dipping a boom end in the water at speed with a preventer rigged etc.). Losing a rudder, may also be the result of poor engineering, poor maintenance, poor build quality, being pushed too hard, or hitting something. The broken bowsprit and stem fitting apparently was the result of a collision between two boats.

(As a point of reference, for example- I almost lost my rudder a dozen years ago when my steering went out and I rigged the emergency tiller. During the previous haul-out we had removed and rebuilt the rudder, and replaced the bushings. When the rudder was reinstalled and the various parts were reassembled, the key between the emergency tiller base fitting and the rudder post was left out of the keyway. Every time I turned the tiller, the fitting rotated and turned the thrust nut that kept the rudder from dropping out of the boat. With each swing of the tiller that nut was being loosened. I happened to notice that happening and was able to keep from having the rudder drop out the bottom of the boat potentially taking a piece of hull with it.)

Looking at the age of the boats, one thing jumps out. The retirees seem to be either almost new boats (Beneteau 40 and the Sydney 39) or older race boats that are listed as having done a slew of racing. Newer boast may not be fully sorted out, but also may have other issues. I can't speak to the Beneteau 40, but for example the Sydney 39 is listed as being modified. I won't speculate on how it was modified and whether the mods have any impact on the rudder failure, but the pictures show a longer than standard sprit and a square top mainsail neither of which appear on drawings for a stock Sydney 39. Regarding the older boats, the unknowns are how hard they were used and abused, how carefully they were maintained, and how far they were modified from the original design assumptions.

But before this becomes a modern race boat criticism thread, I would point out that high attrition rates are not the sole province of modern race boats. Out of 32 skippers/boats that started the Golden Globe, only 7 of these traditional cruising boats are still racing (and one of those may drop out due to a broken bowsprit that endangers his rig.)

Jeff
.
yes, yes, yes…This! Racing boats are a completely different animal. The loads are different. The goals are different. It’s all about keeping your speed and your concentration. Steering the whole way is very difficult. On Rosebud, when they dismasted, it was the second huge wave. There’s a photo online somewhere of the Rosebud hitting the first wave. They had inspected below after the first wave to see if they had broken anything or were taking on water and were discussing reducing sail area (they were in first place or near it at the time). They were one wave to late to prevent the dismasting. And like I said, it wasn’t the strength of the carbon fiber, it was the strength of the little connector to the top diagonal rigging to the top spreader. When that failed with the force of the collision with the water from a good height, then the top of the mast came down like a deck of cards. On our cruise/delivery down the US east coast, I was constantly reminding hubby that we werent racing and were short handed. I called for reefs early (I argued actually and won) in over 20 kts. I called for the stay sail and not using the jib. I especially called for this overnight. Cruising cannot really be compared with racing. They are both a lot of fun and have their own challenges.
 
The well-designed racing sailboat falls apart as soon as it crosses the finish line.
A well designed race boat sets records and wins races year after year. Comanche has been winning ocean races and setting records since 2015. That's hardly falling apart.

When something breaks, fix it and make it stronger.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk
 
I truly enjoyed the response by Jeff_H on this topic. Not only was it comprehensive and without hand-wringing emotion, it was well compiled, and well written- like we'd find in a magazine as opposed to the knee-jerk quick responses found on forums. Technical aspects aside, it was a refreshing read, an enjoyable read, just for the sake of the use of language and composition.
 
I truly enjoyed the response by Jeff_H on this topic. Not only was it comprehensive and without hand-wringing emotion, it was well compiled, and well written- like we'd find in a magazine as opposed to the knee-jerk quick responses found on forums. Technical aspects aside, it was a refreshing read, an enjoyable read, just for the sake of the use of language and composition.
Thank you very much for the very kind words.

Jeff
 
They ride the performance edge of catastrophe. Same as all sport now. You have to throw the ball fast enough that it strains your back.
😂

Mark
Id be interested to know what sort of breakages as a lot of modern boats have gone to glass in various forms instead of the good old S/S shafts, Iv seen a glass shaft break on a trip tp Tonga on a well known make only 3 years old , It had large voids in the lay up ???
 
A well designed race boat sets records and wins races year after year. Comanche has been winning ocean races and setting records since 2015. That's hardly falling apart.

When something breaks, fix it and make it stronger.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk
I have long forgotten where I first heard that little aphorism, but I think you may have taken it a bit too seriously. It's not that racing sailboats are poorly constructed; it is supposed to be a somewhat clever way to make that point that racing boats are designed and built to be as light and as powerful as they can be. In the comically extreme example, a boat can have a sail plan powerful enough to wreck the boat, but hopefully the hull lasts long enough to win the race.

Even though Comanche is obviously not falling apart as it crosses the finish line, my guess is that it takes an inordinate amount of maintenance to keep her afloat and racing at her peak. All boats require a lot of care, but race boats require more. I don't think the "make it stronger so it doesn't break" philosophy could apply to boats like Comanche. They would become heavier and lose their edge over the competition. That defeats the main purpose of the design.

In a side note, I briefly met the owner of Comanche, George David This was way, way before Comanche was built (the very early '90s). His then-wife was on the Board of the organization I worked for at the time (probably because her husband was the head guy at United Technologies, the biggest company in Connecticut), and she and I used to talk sailing. I met George at some event, and I dropped a bunch of hints to both him and her about getting a ride on one of their sailboats. Sadly, they either never picked up on my hints, or, more likely, they had no intention of inviting a low-level staffer to join their social circle. I'm thinking at this point, the window is shut on that opportunity.
 
Well done Jeff. Was great as always to watch the start and finish of the Sydney Hobart from the sofa in Texas, wish I was there! In following the Vendee, Sydney Hobart and other lengthy offshore races it seems the new designs are all with big wide flat sterns to allow for downwind surfing while sacrificing durability upwind. They really sound like they are going to break apart when upwind in difficult seas. I'm kind of partial to my C&C which can point in heavy seas with the best of them and the older S&S designs. Seems that J and X are able to accomplish both surfing and pointing upwind in their current racer cruiser models. Interesting topic nonetheless. Thanks.
 
Well done Jeff.
Thank you for the kind words.

I don't think it is quite fair to say that they are
all with big wide flat sterns to allow for downwind surfing while sacrificing durability upwind. They really sound like they are going to break apart when upwind in difficult seas.
Normally, I tend to reply with a thousand words, but in this case I will allow the one picture to speak the thousand words.
Image

(Or if that is not convincing, I suggest that you look at the scenes of the boats beating [0:48 sec and 1:11] in this video.... )

I don't care what the boat design looks like, these are boat breaking conditions. My current thinking is that based on the relatively small number of damaged boats that were reported, these are incredibly tough boats sailed by incredibly tough sailors.

Jeff
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts