[krisscross]

These navigational apps... do they still work on your tablet even if you have no cellular signal? I need something which is not dependent on the cellular signal and would buy maps (like Navionics) to work with the GPS device inside the tablet. We are leaving US (New Orleans) towards end of May, for Panama and later Hawaii and Indonesia. Boat has a chart plotter but I want a solid backup system. I will also have a Garmin inReach for communications. No cell phone.

 

[chef2sail]

As an add-on to the above, I'd planned to also add the Furuno 1st Watch radar to our boat - which gives you high-quality wireless radar directly on the iPad (and any other i-device).

After contacting the Advertising & Communications Manager at Furuno about our set-up and the fact that I wanted to do a review via our blog and Youtube channel, he generously offered a demo unit for evaluation/review for what was to be our FL-Carib run last summer...

But, alas, with the boys' schedules last summer we just weren't able to get the 6-week block of time needed to do that whole trip. So I thanked Jeff but had to decline the generous offer. I was seriously bummed.

I look forward to seeing some real, first-hand reviews from people who are actually using it for extended periods of time in varying conditions. It's super cool tech...and really rounds out what is an incredibly powerful, affordable, and redundant i-device nav system.

In any case, I won't hesitate to go this route on our next boat.

Cheers.

Here we go again on the Furuno wireless radar thing. Posting untested equipment.

Not tested yet. So SD shills for it and says he was offered one to test for free...not good and certainly not unbiased. Even copy and pastes their commercial sales pitch. Danger is a sailor may mistake that for an actual user with firsthand experience. We seem not to have anyone yet.

Kriss we use a Raymarine system at the helm which bluetooths into our I pad to it as the backup.
We also have I phones which also have Navionics should there be an emu pulse from a North Korean nuke?. Course they would have had to been off when the burst occurred.

Obviously I am a big fan of an I pad , however I like the idea of a direct wired Plotter where I don't have to worry about it being charged and is made for use in the weather. ( glare, rain etc.) . Plotter prices now a days is even less than new ipads.

The nice thing about theI pad being bluetoothed is we can stay under the dodger on a long offshore trip. And see what the Chartplotter behind the helm sees. Also can take it below. On,y thing is their is no radar.

The plotter is a multi ingrated interface and can superimpose the radar on the chart also which can be very helpful. Also no real time AIS can be received on the I Pad like it can on the plotter.

As of yet there is no tested radar real time on I pads that I know of. Even when the day comes and I'm sure it will eventually, I will use the pad to show me what's on the integrated plotter as we do now.

In the event of failure of the plotter we will alwYs have multiple electronic backups as well as actual paper charts. We sail both on the Chesapeake and offshore. Offshore we use the paper charts below and plot our position on them every hour in case of electrical failure.

Understand I am not saying not to use the IPad for navigating however for our type of sailing, it doesn't have the flexibility , robust footprint to meet our needs. Currently it has a few limitations. My wife ( or I ) love the ability to hang out while not at the helm and see, plot, and analyze our current situation. Also it has allowed her to learn navigation and plotting over the years.

I think your plan of using your I pad as a backup and a carry below flexibility to charge is a great and prudent idea.

 

[chef2sail]

These navigational apps... do they still work on your tablet even if you have no cellular signal? I need something which is not dependent on the cellular signal and would buy maps (like Navionics) to work with the GPS device inside the tablet. We are leaving US (New Orleans) towards end of May, for Panama and later Hawaii and Indonesia. Boat has a chart plotter but I want a solid backup system. I will also have a Garmin inReach for communications. No cell phone.

Most definately. The Navionics is downloaded into the I pad and the GPS of the Pad finds the boat position real time using the sattelites. I would in your case also follow along your position with paper charts.

Having the radar and real time AIS signatures on the Chartplotter of the large ships while on these extended off shore passages you are taking is a great safety function.

 

[krisscross]

Thanks for the info, chef. Yes, we are taking paper charts as well and will plot positions. The captain is old school guy but not too much offshore experience, mostly coastal sailing on his boat (54' steel Bruce Roberts). I'm just helping him on this passage. We will have a crew of 4. Boat has radar and chart plotter.

 

[smackdaddy]

These navigational apps... do they still work on your tablet even if you have no cellular signal? I need something which is not dependent on the cellular signal and would buy maps (like Navionics) to work with the GPS device inside the tablet. We are leaving US (New Orleans) towards end of May, for Panama and later Hawaii and Indonesia. Boat has a chart plotter but I want a solid backup system. I will also have a Garmin inReach for communications. No cell phone.

This is very critical issue, kriss. If you're going with an iPad you have to make sure it has cellular data capability. These are the only models that have the built-in GPS. Now, you don't have to activate or use the cellular data - you don't even have to have a sim card installed. You can disable all that and only rely on wifi for whatever you need to do while in wifi range like trip planning, weather forecasts, etc.. But, again, if you want the integrated GPS (which gives you position anywhere you are regardless of wifi or cell connections) and not have to rely on some kind of puck or other external GPS device - you have to have the cellular data model.

The cool thing about the inReach is that you can pair with your iPhone/iPad and use an app called Earthmate to send and receive satellite messages for 2-way comms and trip tracking - and though I haven't used it as such, you can apprently also download NOAA charts - so could use it as yet another back-up chartplotter system. You can also set it up to receive weather forecasts anywhere in the world.

https://support.garmin.com/faqSearch/en-GB/faq/content/DNY6oAk4iY6sV9dTb7aHs5

Finally, I highly recommend iNavX with the Navionics charts add-on. Overall, it's the most powerful set-up for the iDevice system due to the way it ingrates onboard systems via NMEA, etc. via the iMux. This way you DO get AIS overlay, as well as AP connections, and all onboard instrumentation. You can see all of this for yourself via our videos.

 

[chef2sail]

Thanks for the info, chef. Yes, we are taking paper charts as well and will plot positions. The captain is old school guy but not too much offshore experience, mostly coastal sailing on his boat (54' steel Bruce Roberts). I'm just helping him on this passage. We will have a crew of 4. Boat has radar and chart plotter.

R

Wish I was headed with you. Sounds like you have the bases covered.
Post if you can your adventure - successes and challenges

Love hearing first hand experience, that's how most of us can trust what we are seeing.

 

[.216558]

So your pad sends out your AIS signal? Or do you have a separate AIS transceiver? What’s the interface?

 

[smackdaddy]

You can find all the first-hand-experience-based information you need on my blog and Youtube videos.

kriss - let me know if you have any other specific questions. I'm happy to help. Have a great time on your trip! Sail Big and stay safe!

 

[chef2sail]

I am maybe not astute enough to understand this Daddy so can you explain. I can’t sift through you myriad of blogs.
There are two of us now who don’t understand so instead of sending us away to a blog, can you briefly explain. It would be greatly appreciated by others I am sure.

I have I NavX with the Navionics feature on the i pad. Without any further fees I can get live AIS receive/ transponder info in real time.

If I have an IPad off shore 200 mikes where there is no cell phone signals
You are saying by using the I pad I can track REAL Time data from a freighter 15 miles away?

Real time in this case means on my current Chartplotter with integrated AIS that I see him to the second where he is and he sees me. We both can see with no lag time course as well as speed of each other. When he changes 10 degrees I don’t wait for that to go to some data system. It displays directly in real time.

If so I need to try this.

 

[Pendragon35]

I have an iPad Mini with no built in GPS. I use a Garmin GLO connecting via Bluetooth to the iPad and iSailor for software. I love iSailor. I know people complain about the costs, but for what it does, I think it's amazing and you can add in various pieces beyond the charts (weather, places of interest, etc) as you need them. The charts seem to match the NOAA ones well. I also keep paper charts, often with a plot going; I like practicing the skills needed.

Everyone worries about splash but my iPad in the standard Apple cover has never has a problem (I sail an Alberg 35). The one problem I have had is having it in the sun leading to overheating and then shut down.

iSailor also works on the iPhone and I use it there as well, which serves as a backup (Garmin GLO can serve up to 4 devices).

Like any complex program, it took me a while to learn to manipulate iSailor'ss user interface. But once you learn its particular way of doing things, it begins to make sense and it's a great option for navigation.

I've never used Navionics or iNavx; lots of people seem to like them, I really don't have an opinion.

OpenCPN is great. It doesn't run on an iPad. But it's possible to run it on another computer, Raspberry PI for example, and use a VPN connection to see it on an iPad. HOnestly? I find that on the whole a clunky solution EXCEPT for one thing: I'm about to get a VHF radio that outputs AIS And GPS. I plan to run these to a laptop using OpenCPN. It would be nice to figure out how to get the AIS on the iPad.

 

[smackdaddy]

Chef/out - I'm sorry, I'm not interested in doing this again with you guys. I'm more than happy to help new people around here as needed in areas where I have something to offer - but the posts above make it clear that some of the same group of dudes are just trying to spin everything up again. I won't play. You'll just have to sift - or wait.

I'm sure you understand. Later.

 

[.216558]

Thank you

 

[krisscross]

I love iSailor. I know people complain about the costs, but for what it does, I think it's amazing and you can add in various pieces beyond the charts (weather, places of interest, etc) as you need them. The charts seem to match the NOAA ones well.

Thanks for the info. So what are the costs involved, besides the obvious cost of an iPad (I would get one with a built in GPS and cellular data option)?

 

[smackdaddy]

I have an iPad Mini with no built in GPS. I use a Garmin GLO connecting via Bluetooth to the iPad and iSailor for software. I love iSailor. I know people complain about the costs, but for what it does, I think it's amazing and you can add in various pieces beyond the charts (weather, places of interest, etc) as you need them. The charts seem to match the NOAA ones well. I also keep paper charts, often with a plot going; I like practicing the skills needed.

Everyone worries about splash but my iPad in the standard Apple cover has never has a problem (I sail an Alberg 35). The one problem I have had is having it in the sun leading to overheating and then shut down.

iSailor also works on the iPhone and I use it there as well, which serves as a backup (Garmin GLO can serve up to 4 devices).

Like any complex program, it took me a while to learn to manipulate iSailor'ss user interface. But once you learn its particular way of doing things, it begins to make sense and it's a great option for navigation.

I've never used Navionics or iNavx; lots of people seem to like them, I really don't have an opinion.

OpenCPN is great. It doesn't run on an iPad. But it's possible to run it on another computer, Raspberry PI for example, and use a VPN connection to see it on an iPad. HOnestly? I find that on the whole a clunky solution EXCEPT for one thing: I'm about to get a VHF radio that outputs AIS And GPS. I plan to run these to a laptop using OpenCPN. It would be nice to figure out how to get the AIS on the iPad.

Pendragon - I'm working up a video that will cover everything we had integrated on our boat. It will also include how the Furuno 1st Watch app integrates with iNavX. As for the AIS/GPS we used the Standard Horizon GX2200...integrating that NMEA output as an overlay on the iPad/iNavX charts. You need all the right pieces and apps to make everything work together, but when you have it all integrated - it's pretty amazing...especially because you can run it all through multiple i-devices across the boat.

(I know this for a fact, because I've actually done it and have the very REAL first-hand experience that a small-yet-very-vocal group around here seems to demand...yet dismisses if it doesn't fit their agenda or preconceptions. Hard to figure that one out. Anyway...)

Stay tuned for an upcoming GeekZone vid on this.

I also did another extensive video on the RaspberryPi and SignalK...which gets more into the OpenCPN world...but opens the door to a lot of potentially negative stuff. That's why I entitled it "Signal K and Indentured Cruising". But that's another discussion.

All great technologies - you just have to have a pretty good understanding of what goes on under the hood to figure out if it's a good idea or not.

 

[.216558]

Seems from what you’re saying you can achieve a patched together system requiring you to understand what’s under the hood (your words) that approaches the capabilities of a dedicated plug and play hard wired system for about the same money but still not optimized for the stresses of full time cruising. On the rare occasions the chart plotter system fails to work its easier to diagnose and get service if required even in foreign waters. Until that occurs it’s nice to just turn that one off, move the micro sd card to a new master and carry on.
Although my iPhone can do everything my integrated car gps does I use the one in the car when driving not the phone. Interesting that to date if you go on any commercial craft or hard core racer or long term cruiser power or sail even if newly commissioned you’re not likely to see them following SDs advice. When your have the stakes this high and people have developed dedicated systems optimized for this use in this environment if you don’t have the desire to make a point or be a celebrity you will likely decide to go with one of the existing vendors.
Often you’re given this choice. Some people make their own water makers. Many work fine and give good service. Many use Honda gas generators with success. However most still install branded watermakers and branded marine generators. For systems that have such an impact the multiple advantages of the machine created for that purpose in that environment out weigh the diy.
We have open cpn running on the tough book. Both iPads are integrated to the chart plotters as are both iPhones. They also have navionics on them. Still carry a small handheld Garmin, paper charts and use the chart plotters in preference.
I’m pleased that pad navigation has taken off. It’s driven the chart plotter vendors to improve their offerings and hold to a price point. The innovation and dramatic increase in ease of use and useful features is pleasing. Perhaps pads will have better screens, be suitably hardened, be plug and play with no need to look under the hood in the future. Seems to me then they will be chart plotters Oh My....

 

[smackdaddy]

Yes, putting a full blown system together like the one we had requires some basic technical knowledge. But it's really not that hard if you can follow directions and have the desire to do it. That's why I'm taking the time to share my experience on this with those who are actually interested.

Alternatively, if one doesn't want to be bothered (or antagonistic), one can pay 5X-30X+ the cost (nowhere near the "same money") - and still have limitations. Their call.

As for who uses tablets and whether they are up to the rigors of the ocean, I'm not sure where you're looking, but here's Ian Walker using one during the VOR...

I've heard he's a pretty good sailor - in the ocean - pretty far from shore. Tablets were also all over the AC in the past couple of iterations.

Here's the article that the photo of Ian's is from with this snippet (specific to racing, but you get the idea)...

Bringing the navigator on deck and into inshore fleet racing was once the domain of the America's Cup until the advent of deck screens. Deck screens have been common for some years now in professional racing such as the TP52 class. However, new technology has lowered the cost of implementation. These days it is not unusual to see club racers using deck screens to increase their starting accuracy and to take advantage of tactical navigation software such as Expedition, Deckman and Adrena.

Just what are the options for a club racer who wants to use software on deck to help make smarter decisions?

Broadly speaking there are three methods that can be implemented, each varying in cost, complexity, and advantages. Which method is right for you boat largely depends on your budget, but also the tasks you want to achieve on deck.

Tablet only set-up

A quick search on the internet for deck screen set-ups will reveal many "Apps" that run on low cost iOS or Android tablets. The saying "there's an app for that" has never rung truer in sailing. The most common set-up in this category is a tablet with built-in GPS running an app that tracks the boat.

Again, I have no interest in trying to change your mind, out - or anyone else in your brood, so I won't continue this. You guys use what you like. I fully support you in living in whatever world you want to live in. I really don't care.

I'll just correct misstatements, etc. as I've done above when I feel it's needed...and continue to answer questions from those who are actually interested in having a real conversation about the realities of this very cool, very affordable tech.

 

[chef2sail]

Chef/out - I'm sorry, I'm not interested in doing this again with you guys. I'm more than happy to help new people around here as needed in areas where I have something to offer - but the posts above make it clear that some of the same group of dudes are just trying to spin everything up again. I won't play. You'll just have to sift - or wait.

I'm sure you understand. Later.

Thanks smacks,

That answer should also show the newbies you purport to be helping exactly that you are stuck on your own agenda

Unwilling to answer questions ur even admit there are issues with what you propose

Even if you had this capability on your sold boat. The answers show a lot of complexity jury rigged and we all know the issues of differening equipment talking to each other especially when not matched

I would bet the average sailor on SN here doesn't want to have a Rube Goldberg designed system when they can purchase as reasonable MFD chartplotter for cheap now adays and integrate radar, ais in a plug and play mode. Not to mention the charging and Vison issues

As far as cost the I pad cost is similar nowadays

To the newbies, I have an I pad as backup and love it

However I recognize
That if I want to make it multifunctional it will require a whiole confusing mismatched parts to work as well as downloading different programs hoping they talk to each other. . I wonder whether most of you want to continually mess with that. I'd rather spend my time sailing and enjoying the water then becoming an electronics computer sleuth.

For those who use an I pad for your principal form of navigation as it meets your basic sailing needs. It's a great piece of electronics , but you do need a backup plan when it fails or runs out of juice . Or even gets hacked / spammed. Like some of us are now by using this Sailnet site. Redundancy is important. Redundancy not reaching its solutions exactly the same is a good cross check

As a current boat owner with active boating experience I still recommend a solution with a uncomplicated MFD chartplotter and an I pad as it's backup.

 

[.216558]

There’s no question tablets are useful tools on a boat. We use them routinely as well as the laptop. However continue to use all the tools available that aid safety and lower stress. On passage it’s easy to have crew get comfortable with the chart plotter but difficult for them to get comfortable with some of the stuff on the laptop. They don’t have issues with the iPad and commonly folks bring their pads and use them. However the boat and the log runs off the chart plotter. That’s what’s used by whoever is on watch. Have had several crew who run their personal boats off a pad. Surprisingly they have commented they like running the boat off the chart plotters.
Appreciate the article about INSHORE racing you alluded too. Delightful and useful tools for the tactician and deck screens most helpful to crew.
Understand virtually all offshore racers are using laptops or powerful pads to optimize vmg, help with weather routing and they are de rigor if you want to be competitive but still believe for cruising there remains a place for plotters being the primary navigation aid. Like you I have no desire to change your mind. I’m fortunate in seeing the hi tech stuff coming out of neb time to time. Still seeing b&g and the like being put on those boats. Similarly have friends running commercial and research vessels. Once again plotters are being installed at the helms. Yes, everyone is using pads but as supplemental resources.

 

[smackdaddy]

For those reading along, here is the sum total of the "cobbled together, jury-rigged, Rube Goldberg" system we had on our boat...

-At the 1900 position you have the Raymarine autopilot that came with the boat
-At the 2000 position you have the Raymarine ST60 instruments that came with the boat
-At the 2200 position you have the Furuno 1st Watch radar I was planning to add (we actually had an old JRC that I was going to replace)
-At the 2300 position you have the Brookhouse iMux.
-Then the iPad chartplotter
-Then the iPhone backup (of which we had 4)
-At the 1600 position you have the Standard Horizon GX 2200
-At the 1700 position you have other instrumentation that could be optionally added via the existing NMEA/SeaTalk wiring in the boat (and monitored via iNavX) like engine data, tankage, etc.

Here is what it took to make it all work as a unified system on a single iPad at the helm...

1. Run a SeaTalk cable from the Raymarine Tri-Data instrument at the nav station (or Tee-in anywhere in the cable) - to the iMux and follow the wiring instructions for the iMux. Turn on your instruments. You now have all NMEA/SeaTalk data being broadcast via onboard Wifi.

2. Pick up your iPad and select the iMux wifi signal you now see and enter the password given to you with the iMux. Now go into iNavX and set the TCP/IP settings for the iMux. You now have all NMEA/SeaTalk data coming through to your chartplotter where you can see everything (as tabs at the top of your chart, and/or via in the full instruments dashboard shown in the 1700 image below) from windspeed, wind direction, boat speed, depth, state of charge, water temp, air temp, you name it. Anything coming through that NMEA/SeaTalk wire is now on your chartplotter (AND all other i-devices on your boat). A couple more settings in iNavX and you also have an AP repeater on your iPad via the same NMEA/SeaTalk backbone.

3. Turn the instruments back off and run a couple of wires from your Standard Horizon GX2200 into the appropriate inputs on the iMux. Turn everything back on, including the VHF. You now have live AIS on your charts where you can monitor and touch targets and get all the typical AIS data in the pop-up you'd expect from any advanced MFD.

That's it. That's all you have to do to have a fully functional, fully capable MFD at the helm...and as many additional back-up i-devices you might have onboard (we had 2 iPads and 4 phones and ALL of them worked with this system).

The Furuno 1st Watch only requires power (no additional wiring). So it's very easy to add and could probably use the same power connection your current radar dome uses. Then you install the app on your i-Device, and now you also have full-featured hi-def radar on the chartplotter at the helm and all other i-devices on your boat.

It's really not that hard - unless one needs it be for some reason. More coming soon on video.

 

[chef2sail]

For those reading along, here is the sum total of the "cobbled together, jury-rigged, Rube Goldberg" system we had on our boat...

-At the 1900 position you have the Raymarine autopilot that came with the boat
-At the 2000 position you have the Raymarine ST60 instruments that came with the boat
-At the 2200 position you have the Furuno 1st Watch radar I was planning to add (we actually had an old JRC that I was going to replace)
-At the 2300 position you have the Brookhouse iMux.
-Then the iPad chartplotter
-Then the iPhone backup (of which we had 4)
-At the 1600 position you have the Standard Horizon GX 2200
-At the 1700 position you have other instrumentation that could be optionally added via the existing NMEA/SeaTalk wiring in the boat (and monitored via iNavX) like engine data, tankage, etc.

Here is what it took to make it all work as a unified system on a single iPad at the helm...

1. Run a SeaTalk cable from the Raymarine Tri-Data instrument at the nav station (or Tee-in anywhere in the cable) - to the iMux and follow the wiring instructions for the iMux. Turn on your instruments. You now have all NMEA/SeaTalk data being broadcast via onboard Wifi.

2. Pick up your iPad and select the iMux wifi signal you now see and enter the password given to you with the iMux. Now go into iNavX and set the TCP/IP settings for the iMux. You now have all NMEA/SeaTalk data coming through to your chartplotter where you can see everything (as tabs at the top of your chart, and/or via in the full instruments dashboard shown in the 1700 image below) from windspeed, wind direction, boat speed, depth, state of charge, water temp, air temp, you name it. Anything coming through that NMEA/SeaTalk wire is now on your chartplotter (AND all other i-devices on your boat). A couple more settings in iNavX and you also have an AP repeater on your iPad via the same NMEA/SeaTalk backbone.

3. Turn the instruments back off and run a couple of wires from your Standard Horizon GX2200 into the appropriate inputs on the iMux. Turn everything back on, including the VHF. You now have live AIS on your charts where you can monitor and touch targets and get all the typical AIS data in the pop-up you'd expect from any advanced MFD.

That's it. That's all you have to do to have a fully functional, fully capable MFD at the helm...and as many additional back-up i-devices you might have onboard (we had 2 iPads and 4 phones and ALL of them worked with this system).

The Furuno 1st Watch only requires power (no additional wiring). So it's very easy to add and could probably use the same power connection your current radar dome uses. Then you install the app on your i-Device, and now you also have full-featured hi-def radar on the chartplotter at the helm and all other i-devices on your boat.

It's really not that hard - unless one needs it be for some reason. More coming soon on video.

Like is said cobbled together. Not simplicity. Not for me.

I am not trying to change you. Just present an alternative point of view to other posters. I am saying you are wrong Smacky, Just that others think differently. You seem to have a problem with that as every time one of us posts ...its counter point back from you in minutes. Counterpoint meaning you are trying to prove us wrong . The counterpoint has volumes of tech talk, pretty cut and paste diagrams or videos..and volume...sheer volume.

I have no problem with I Pads. Just like Outbound don't see them as what I or many of my friends who I sail with want as their PRIMARY system.

Despite the volume of posts you present with the glitzy computer generated cut and paste it doesn't mean you convinced the average SAILOR who actually sails many miles like we do. Many of my sailing friends are very knowledgeable and also sail their boats all the time. We don't have time to draw up or google search topics for SN. Some previous posters on this very subject thought relying on them offshore was a safety issue. Not the I pad, just using it as a primary.

For those you take down this path...good for them if they are happy. For those who agree with the using of a Chartplotter as a primary ....good for them .

My friends and our spouses don't want to have deal with downloading and fixing connections from mismatched equipment which wasn't its primary intended purpose. While some geeks may follow this route I cannot see it ever really replacing the MSD overall. Does it really make a difference in the end run?

For you newbies or those who really just want to hang out on your boats, upgrade your Navionics, and go sailing without having to generate a lot of time. KISS principal applies. My wife and I sail, every weekend,
We travel over 3000 mikes a year as costal or Chesapeake bay cruisers and have done it for years.
As I look around at my friends boats who sail I see many variations of what we have. We certainly don't own a dock queen, barge , or powerboat,. We are SAILORS just like you. This works for us.

Many of us just love the beauty of sailing and don't give a rats ass about connectivity, rebooting, proper backbones, connectivity, downloading , we just want to sail. We don't sit in front of a computer. We sit in the cockpit enjoying the scenery. I like turning on instruments others can also run, including my wife. We love the Chartplotter we have integrated on one screen with radar and AIS , and we also have an I pad. I'll bet if I went down the dock, and asked any of them whether they would give theirs up for a primary navigation system offshore as an I pad....they would laugh and say hell no. But what do we know....we actually sail.

Your choice spend your time where you think you want. ??

BTW...is it always necesssary for to to feel you need to have the last word . I thought you were done talking about this to us. Maybe not???