[rbyham]

This was my third time out with a new to me 135. Coming from having learned to sail this year with a 100 jib this is a whole new world. I love the added power and with furler I don't worry to much about being overwhelmed. But here is my question. Is there any way to avoid dragging it across 4 stays as I tack? Seems like a rip could easily happen. Gybing goes much better because wind pushes sail forward. TIA...

 

[DonScribner]

Ruby,

We have a 150% genoa. We just tack and let her drag where she feels like it. This usually means getting hung up on the shrouds and life lines, then a dramatic pulse of power and snapping of sheets taunt as soon as she fills. At very least it looks cool and in the right wind, you might find your rail in the water. (But that's ANOTHER thread) I suppose you could roll it in advance to let it bypass the rigging. But then you'd miss the dramatic pulse of power and the chance to find yourself staring blindly into the surf and screaming "Dump the wind! Dump the WIND!!!" But, that's Another thread.

Don

 

[CalebD]

Here is one idea:
Forespar Sailsaver Jib Roller
I suspect you could make something similar on your own using pieces of PVC pipe.
Another option is to partially furl up the genoa before tacking and let it out again after the tack.

 

[Faster]

The only way to avoid the sail dragging across the rig would be to roll it halfway up, then tack and redeploy it... Lotsa work and I think you'd tire of it quickly.

You can ease things by adding shroud rollers to make it easier for everything to slide by, using a larks head attached one-piece sheet to minimize the bulk of a couple of bowline knots, and hold the sheet a little until the sail is inverted before releasing and pulling in on the new tack. It's less likely to get snagged on something that way.

The sail will survive quite a long time despite the "abuse". Make sure the leech line is enclosed and protected without hanging out.. They can catch on mast hardware. Keep an eye on the UV cover.. Probably the first place you'll see any issues.

 

[paulk]

Some people put shroud rollers on their shrouds to keep the chafe down. If you have enough crew, someone can be assigned to help the sail around the shrouds. This can speed up your tacks as well, since the person can heave on the sheet , along with the trimmer winching, once the clew is past the new leeward shrouds. Working on the timing of the release and coordinating it with your turn can also help cut down the amount of flogging against the shrouds.

 

[Faster]

Here's an old 12 meter trick.. have a grommet/cringle added to the sail at mid foot. Run a light line from it forward to a block at the bow, and aft to the cockpit. During the tack, once the sheet's released, pull the line to get the bulk of the sail forward of the mast, once the sail's 'blown through' release it (making sure it can run free) and sheet the sail in as normal.

Much less labour intensive than partially rolling the sail during a tack.

..or just do what most of us do, refine your technique then grin and bear it!

 

[SchockT]

Rollers definitely help. I have rollers on my lifelines so the foot doesn't catch on the stancheons as you grind in to close-hauled, which reduces the number of times you have to "skirt" the sail. When tacking from close hauled timing of the release is very important. release too early and the sail flogs, making it very hard to get the sail across smoothly. Release too late and the sail backwinds too much, trying to poke the spreader through the sail. When we tack, the first thing we do is "squeak" a bit of sheet out in preparation for the tack, which serves to get the sail away from the spreader a bit, and gives the boat a bit of acceleration going into the tack. As the boat turns we hold the sheet until the headsail begins to backwind, but release before it plasters against the rigging. That way the wind blows the sail through the foretriangle quickly. That also helps to push the bow around on the new tack. It is also important to minimize the number of things that can foul or snag the sheets and sail. Tape up all cotter pins and split rings. If you use bowlines on your sheets, keep the loops small; a big space between the knot and the clew will catch on shrouds and stays every time and drive you crazy!

Genoas are built for the abuse of tacking, but if you are concerned about damage, you can have reinforcement patches sewn on to the areas that contact hard points like spreaders and stancheons. (this is more common on laminate sails than dacron, which is more tolerant of the abuse). In my opinion excessive flogging does more harm to a sail than dragging across smooth rigging. Learn to tack with minimal flogging and you will do your sails a favor!

 

[OZWILD]

This was my third time out with a new to me 135. Coming from having learned to sail this year with a 100 jib this is a whole new world. I love the added power and with furler I don't worry to much about being overwhelmed. But here is my question. Is there any way to avoid dragging it across 4 stays as I tack? Seems like a rip could easily happen. Gybing goes much better because wind pushes sail forward. TIA...

The sail saver / jib saver idea is a good one as mentioned by Caleb - found them in my toolbox when I bought Pandora. Haven't installed them though.

Our process when tacking is to leave the jib tight on the current winch until we are through the wind then release it so the wind takes the jib across with some force. Gives us good speed when racing as it powers up quickly. This reduces the likelyhood of the jib or jib sheets snagging on anything as well.

Often we forget to close the front hatch when cruising and that is where the sheets get snagged.

We used to reef the jib on the roller before tacking but it's too inefficient.

 

[RichH]

Here's an old 12 meter trick.. have a grommet/cringle added to the sail at mid foot. Run a light line from it forward to a block at the bow, and aft to the cockpit. During the tack, once the sheet's released, pull the line to get the bulk of the sail forward of the mast, once the sail's 'blown through' release it (making sure it can run free) and sheet the sail in as normal.

Much less labour intensive than partially rolling the sail during a tack.

..or just do what most of us do, refine your technique then grin and bear it!

In some circles what Faster describes is called 'tricing lines'. To see the zenith of tricing line handling, get a hold of a video of the 1987 Americas Cup Campaign ... all the boats engaged used 'tricing lines' on their genoas - and they had it 'mastered' to the highest degree possible.

 

[yalnud]

Ruby,

We have a 150% genoa. We just tack and let her drag where she feels like it. This usually means getting hung up on the shrouds and life lines, then a dramatic pulse of power and snapping of sheets taunt as soon as she fills. At very least it looks cool and in the right wind, you might find your rail in the water. (But that's ANOTHER thread) I suppose you could roll it in advance to let it bypass the rigging. But then you'd miss the dramatic pulse of power and the chance to find yourself staring blindly into the surf and screaming "Dump the wind! Dump the WIND!!!" But, that's Another thread.

Don

i NEVER LAUGHED SO HARD!!!!
DUMP THE WIND HAHAHHAHA

 

[smurphny]

Something not seen much anymore are the wood shroud rollers. They help a lot to get the genny across. It's the sheet knot that I find catches but the wood rollers at least stop any chafe.

 

[theonecalledtom]

We leave the sheet tight to the moment of luff then free as quickly as possible. As mentioned steering through the wind reasonably fast reduces the time spent bashing the rigging but really turn speed is about trying to keep the boat moving through the turn as efficiently as possible - not judged by concern for the sail. For us backwinding is slow and we avoid it.

One skirting trick when shorthanded is a slight luff to bring the sail inside the lifelines once it starts catching on the stanchions.

 

[christian.hess]

not much to add here just this maybe:

think someone else mentioned that its prefferable to back wind the jib then release quickly and this way you only chafe or pressure the clew once...

meaning it will hang on the stays tight then you realease sheet, tack over and the sail will fly over a lot quicker and for the most part less problematically

lastly Im sure you do this but never sheet in tight the windward sheet(unless you are racing certain boats) as you will end up dragging and chafing quite a bit more

also there is a nother technique which is slow and reduces speed but(who cares really) basically you blow out the sheet before tacking....let the sail wallow out through the tack(without getting forward of the forestay) and turn slowly and only sheet in tight once the sail is fully out on opposite side

not fast, but avoids shredding the sail

the one issue with this is you do more winch work but if you have good winches and or arms have at it! jajaja

I notice many people like the always tight and trim tacks where they are releasing one sheet and pulling at the oher at the same time...it boggles my mind but this is the best way to ruin any foresail. Its also harsh on the rigging.


cheers

 

[MarcusDarkmoor]

Hi all,

I have recently bought a 17ft Pedro (similar to a SeaHawk but without the swinging keel) and although I haven't sailed it yet, I am toying with the idea of a genoa...(never used one yet though)

This boat weighs about 600Kg, and I will be sailing single handed, but I like the idea of the extra power a genoa would give. Is this a good idea on a boat of this size? If it should capsize (which I doubt would happen), there would be no chance of recovery, but would say a 150% genoa be too powerful and have the potential to cause such a disaster?

 

[PaulinVictoria]

I wouldn't bother, especially if you haven't even sailed it yet, small rig but there isn't a lot below the water either, I think you'd be quickly overpowered.

 

[overbored]

Bilge keel boats that small will be overpowered by a genoa if the rig can handle the load. with a genoa you will be sailing sideways most of the time. if the rudder can even control the boat.

 

[roverhi]

To keep the sail from hanging up on the shroud, get a single line equal to the length of the two sheets, brummel splice it to the sail at mid point in the line. Voila, no more knots to hang up. Does require a dedicated sheet for the sail but with roller furling, you'll probably use this sail for 99% of you sailing and you already have the current sheets for other sails. A brummel splice is simply passing one of the line through the other and the same for the other end. This is not the locking Brummell that most of the videos show. This worked for me fine on a sail to Hawaii where I was on the same tack for 10 days. If you don't like the Brummell splice idea after trying it, just pull the lines back through the other and you once again have a single long line.

You can also go with a cow hitch but this may allow the rope to creep through the hitch resulting in one side with more line than the other. Haven't used a cow hitch for any length of time so don't know if it's really an issue. A cow hitch has worked fine for day sailing a couple of times.

 

[Sailormon6]

I've tried the gamut of knots that are usually recommended for attaching a jibsheet, and can't honestly say I have found any that works significantly better than any other. I use bowlines to attach the jibsheets for cruising as well as for racing.

I also don't backwind the jib during a tack, because 1) it's not necessary (there are better ways of getting the jib across and past the shrouds), 2) it doesn't really help, and 3) it causes adverse effects. (backwinding the jib is the equivalent of putting on the brakes and kills boatspeed; also, the jib tailer only has a few seconds to haul in the jibsheet and when you delay the release of the working jibsheet, you are using up more than half of the time that the tailer has to tail the sheet on the new side. As a result, either the sail luffs on the new side until he can grind it in, or the helmsman has to bear farther off the wind to get the jib driving. Either result costs speed and time.)

Regardless of the knots you use, the sheets seldom snag during a tack in moderate or stronger winds. The wind is strong enough to lift the sail clear of the shrouds after the bow passes the eye of the wind. It only becomes a problem in lighter air.

There are techniques you can use that work better than backwinding the jib, without the adverse effects. On any boat, moving crew weight to the new leeward side during the tack causes the boat to heel. (In light air, that's where you'll want crew weight to be after the tack anyway.) When the boat heels, the top of the mast will tilt to leeward, and, when combined with a little lift from whatever air movement you have, gravity will help the sail fall away to leeward of the stays. A small unballasted, or lightly ballasted boat especially responds well to the shifting of the weight of only one person.

Whenever you have crew, one of them should be sent to the foredeck in light air to walk the sail around the rigging. On a small boat, you might be able to grasp a sheet and flip the sail past the shrouds without leaving the cockpit.

I can't think of a good reason to ever backwind the jib, unless I wanted to kill boatspeed for some reason, or make the jib tailer look inept.

 

[Classic30]

I can't think of a good reason to ever backwind the jib, unless I wanted to kill boatspeed for some reason, or make the jib tailer look inept.

Mon, on a modern plastic go-fast you're quite correct, but on something like my old girl (a full-keeled classic cruiser designed to sail straight whatever angle of heel) if we don't back-wind the jib in winds <5kts we either won't tack at all or will take ages to do so... because without using the sails you need steerage-way to be able to tack and in light winds I lose steerage from the moment the helm goes over.

Done right it doesn't kill boat-speed appreciably and ensures a smooth tack every time.. but that headsail must be across before we get head-to-wind or, yes, we'll stop dead.

 

[Sailormon6]

Mon, on a modern plastic go-fast you're quite correct, but on something like my old girl (a full-keeled classic cruiser designed to sail straight whatever angle of heel) if we don't back-wind the jib in winds <5kts we either won't tack at all or will take ages to do so... because without using the sails you need steerage-way to be able to tack and in light winds I lose steerage from the moment the helm goes over.

Done right it doesn't kill boat-speed appreciably and ensures a smooth tack every time.. but that headsail must be across before we get head-to-wind or, yes, we'll stop dead.

j
I'll grant that's probably true of some full keelers, but I have sailed some full keel boats that actually sail fairly well in light air, and tack nicely without backwinding. I think a full keel boat that carries a big rig with sufficiently generous sail area can maintain enough boat speed to carry it through the tack without backwinding. It depends on the boat. You have to do whatever works.