You cannot furl the sail with any pressure on it. The sheet should be fully eased (except for slight drag to minimize the bulk of the furl a bit unless it's as windy as you experienced.)

If it's too windy to furl the sail even with it luffing or if it furls too tight as it did for you, then the best way is to head deep downwind, hide the jib behind the main and furl it then. Be careful not to allow an accidental jibe, since you'll be heading pretty deep during the manuever and you don't want those complications.

Generally if you need a winch to get the sail furled either you're doing it wrong, or there's a mechanical problem, or a substandard furler.

Also, as you unfurl the sail be sure to keep some drag on the furling line then too, ie- ease the sail out rather than let it spin itself out... otherwise you can get really nasty overrides on the furling drum that can cause a problem later.

 

You cannot furl the sail with any pressure on it. The sheet should be fully eased (except for slight drag to minimize the bulk of the furl a bit unless it's as windy as you experienced.)

If it's too windy to furl the sail even with it luffing or if it furls too tight as it did for you, then the best way is to head deep downwind, hide the jib behind the main and furl it then. Be careful not to allow an accidental jibe, since you'll be heading pretty deep during the manuever and you don't want those complications.

Generally if you need a winch to get the sail furled either you're doing it wrong, or there's a mechanical problem, or a substandard furler.

Also, as you unfurl the sail be sure to keep some drag on the furling line then too, ie- ease the sail out rather than let it spin itself out... otherwise you can get really nasty overrides on the furling drum that can cause a problem later.

I had it fully luffing heading into the wind with sheets eased but still could not get it in. I will have to check the furling gear to make sure it is not binding, but it did not seem to be a mechanical problem and it is a good Profurl system.

 

Check to see that your halyard is not wrapping up around the headstay. If the halyard exit is not angled away from the headstay it can wrap easily if there is a high amount of load on the swivel (like when you are in windy conditions). Also, backstay should be tight enough so that the sag of the headstay is somewhat minimized; if the headstay is loose then the foil will not want to bend as it rotates around the headstay.

If your halyard goes to the top of the mast and it exits the mast more than 8-10" you should add a pennant made of stainless wire between the head of the sail and the swivel. That will minimize the ability of the halyard to wrap up because the eye splice is thicker and it won't twist as easily; and the length is shorter between the swivel and the sheave box. When I added a pennant to the head of my jib it eliminated the problem of a wrapping halyard.

Also make sure that the furling control line is running free and be sure that when the line exits the drum it is at 90 deg to the headstay because if it is not the line won't spool onto the drum evenly. You should always have about 10 extra turns on the furling drum so that you don't run out of purchase if the sail furls tightly around the foil; so you should either add more turns by dropping the sail and then pre feeding some in by rotating the drum by hand, and if the line is not long enough for this replace the line with a longer one.

Another thing to consider in the situation you were in is that it is nearly always safer to remain under (reduced) sail than to try and drop sails and motor to your destination. I agree that you had a tough situation with inexperienced crew and double-handed; but even if you reduce the headsail to a storm jib size and then either spill your main a bit or reef it (I know this might not have been an easy procedure given your scenario), you are going to make better time and in more safety than under motor alone. I think of my engine as a device to use in an emergency; since it is also difficult to raise sail if you lose engine power while under motor alone (if your filters get clogged, or if you have some other engine related failure). With the situation of tacking into the wind with waves on the beam; just spill your sails a bit; go at the waves on with them aft of your beam a bit and you should be OK because your heel will be reduced and the wave will push your stern to windward. If you see a big roller coming you can round up and let it go past your bow then continue along. Morgan 416 O/I should be up to the task; next time you head out into challenging wind conditions be sure and have more crew along.

 

Make sure you have a good few turns on the furling line drum in excess of what appears necessary in the marina. Then you can furl it completely, if necessary with the help of a winch.

 

I routinely furl the jib heading downwind as suggested by Faster. When furling is difficult, rather than pulling the furler line straight back. I repeatedly pull the line perpendicular the cleat and the furler, and then take up the slack.

 

Having a few extra turns on the furling drum is a very good idea, as some of the furling drums can separate under load if they don't have a couple of wraps of line around them. Generally, you'll want at least five-to-six extra wraps around the drum so that when you've furled the sail completely, you can wrap the sheets around it two-or-three times and still have a two-to-three wraps on the drum. The sheets wrapped around the sail help ensure that it won't come unfurled when you don't want it to.

 

I'm going to have to give the furling gear a good once over while I have the jib off for repair. It seems like there are just too many times when it is hard to furl it if there is much wind at all. From what I am reading, it should be fairly easy to furl up without using superhuman strength or a winch no matter what the wind.

More crew or at least more experienced crew would have helped a lot on the trip. In lieu of that I am going to have to rethink the kind of weather I go out in without another experienced crewmember.

 

Tausap...if you are presently in Deltaville getting the work done...suggest Bay Area Rigging as really good and competent folks.

(804) 776-7476

 

I am back in my homeport of Colonial Beach now but may give them a call. Thanks

 

I suppose it depends on how big a headsail you are trying to furl. With my large and heavy 140 genoa, I can only furl it in light airs without a little help from the winch (being a 2 kg weakling helps here). Using the winch in heavy airs has the advantage of preventing the beast slipping out of control. It does require a cautious eye on the head of the sail, just in case halyard wrap looks imminent, or some loose spinaker halyard decides to get involved.

 

Furling problems

Tausup,

If I understand your problem correctly the headsail was partially furled and you then encountered a building breeze and made a couple of tacks, then when you pulled hard on the furling line after letting the sheets loose, the sail would not roll up any further. If that is the problem you encountered you may want to experiment some on a less windy day troubleshooting the following theory.

The idea behind easy furling is a relatively tight forestay and a relatively loose halyard. Think about a bakers rolling pin. It wouldn't roll too easily if it wasn't perfectly round. Also think bout the handles. If the handles were pressed too tightly against the roller, it wouldn't roll easily. The furling system works the same way but on a much larger scale. A sagging forestay ruins the straight line the sail needs to travel around when it rolls up. A tight halyard increases the loads on the top and bottom bearings..once again making it harder to roll up. When a sail is partially rolled up, and the wind builds, the same things are happening as the sail that is wrapped around the furler tightens up and acts like a tightened halyard. The forestay sags due to the increase in pressure from the breeze and the whole thing is hard to work.

What you might consider is to go out on a 10 knot day and unfurl the headsail, then loosen the halyard until you see some small wrinkles coming back from the luff. Then tighten up the backstay till the forestay is straight as you will have it when sailing in a bigger breeze, then slack off the halyard some more till the wrinkles come back. Try rolling up the headsail at this point a few turns, then unroll it some and roll it back up. When you are happy with the performance, mark the halyard and backstay settings with a sharpie marker so you can reset them easily. Slacking off on the halyard in a building breeze is the exact opposite of what you want to do to maintain sail trim, but once you roll it up partially, you will be relieving some of the pressure on the furled sail.

The interaction between the headstay tension and the halyard tension is sort of a black art and you may have to experiment some to get it just right.

Hope this helps some,

121Guy

 

Tausup,

If I understand your problem correctly the headsail was partially furled and you then encountered a building breeze and made a couple of tacks, then when you pulled hard on the furling line after letting the sheets loose, the sail would not roll up any further. If that is the problem you encountered you may want to experiment some on a less windy day troubleshooting the following theory.

The idea behind easy furling is a relatively tight forestay and a relatively loose halyard. Think about a bakers rolling pin. It wouldn't roll too easily if it wasn't perfectly round. Also think bout the handles. If the handles were pressed too tightly against the roller, it wouldn't roll easily. The furling system works the same way but on a much larger scale. A sagging forestay ruins the straight line the sail needs to travel around when it rolls up. A tight halyard increases the loads on the top and bottom bearings..once again making it harder to roll up. When a sail is partially rolled up, and the wind builds, the same things are happening as the sail that is wrapped around the furler tightens up and acts like a tightened halyard. The forestay sags due to the increase in pressure from the breeze and the whole thing is hard to work.

What you might consider is to go out on a 10 knot day and unfurl the headsail, then loosen the halyard until you see some small wrinkles coming back from the luff. Then tighten up the backstay till the forestay is straight as you will have it when sailing in a bigger breeze, then slack off the halyard some more till the wrinkles come back. Try rolling up the headsail at this point a few turns, then unroll it some and roll it back up. When you are happy with the performance, mark the halyard and backstay settings with a sharpie marker so you can reset them easily. Slacking off on the halyard in a building breeze is the exact opposite of what you want to do to maintain sail trim, but once you roll it up partially, you will be relieving some of the pressure on the furled sail.

The interaction between the headstay tension and the halyard tension is sort of a black art and you may have to experiment some to get it just right.

Hope this helps some,

121Guy

Excellent post! That may be exactly what the problem is because I noticed yesterday that the headstay appeared to need tightening. I also know that the Halyard is fairly tight.

Now, granted, I know the sail is going to be more difficult to furl in heavier winds due to the load being put on it. This is my first boat with roller furling and though I have no previous experience with it, I find it hard to believe that it would be impossible to furl even putting all my strength into it without a winch. What kind of resistance would be normal to encounter when furling the jib in, say, a 25-30 knot wind?

 

Guys, this is a great thread. I had some problems with my furling in heavy airs (I have a Profurl and a medium-weight Yankee-cut jib on my cutter, and while I was able to solve them by blanketing the jib, the "physics" of the operation are now clear to me.

Thanks for the in-depth discussion.

 

I always turn downwind to furl the headsail on my boat. I can easily control the amount of wind pressure on the headsail by heading up or down as needed. That way I get a nice tight wrap around the furler without wrapping it so tight that I run out of line.

I would agree that Brett's problems were likely due to a loose backstay allowing the forestay to go slack when heading downwind. It's very hard to roll a foil with a loop in it.

 

Furling Problems

Hi Tausup,

I may have assumed incorrectly that you have a mechanical backstay adjuster and now see that you sail a Morgan with a relatively large headsail.

If my first assumption was not accurate, but my second one is, perhaps you may want to try to the following. If you are not familiar with tuning the rig both at the dock and then further underway, you may need some professional help as was already posted.

The Profurl is arguably the most durable furling system around and is one of the only ones I know of that actually recommends using a winch when necessary. On a boat your size, with a large heavy headsail in the winds you describe, you may have to resort to a winch but before that, I'd make sure the mast is tuned right for the type of sailing you do. If the backstay is fixed, you are going to want to overtighten it some so as to take up any slack in the headstay and leave it that way. If that isn't possible, perhaps you will need to take up some adjustment in the forestay and then play with the halyard as previously discussed. Mast tune is another one of the black arts so you may want to get some help so that it is set up just right.

A good starting point is to grab the forestay at the dock and shake it. If you can move it back and forth with moderate force, it may well be too loose. I'd guess that when hard on the wind, with the sail fully out, you should have less than a foot or so of sag right in the middle of the furler. As far as the furler is concerned remember a tighter forestay and looser halyard is always better!

Good luck!

121 Guy

 

Another problem, no one yet mentioned, concerns unfurling.

If you just release the furl line, pull the sheet, it'll unfurl, but the furling line won't be wrapped on the furler evenly and may even overlap the line making furling impossible.

Always unfurl with some tension on the furler line.

 

True. indeed, but was addressed in Post #2

 

furlers, boat and sail sizes

Hello,

If your boat is a morgan 41' model, it will have a big sail and I think that will take a good amount of effort to furl.

My first boat, a Catalina 22, had a 150 genoa on a furler (I forget the particular model). It was a small boat with a fairly small sail. It was easy to furl in all conditions (once I learned about halyard wrap).

My second boat was 28' and came with a Selden Furlex 100S furler. That furler worked great. I used it with a 150 genoa and, later on, a 140 laminate genoa. Regardless of the wind, i could easily furl the sail without a winch. It it got real windy it would take more effort. It it was real real windy (20-25 kts) I would make sure I was on a port tack and on a beam reach so I could easily roll up the sail (it rolled up counter-clockwise).

My current boat has a Hood Line Sea Furl SL (it was originally a line drive and has been converted to single line). The boat is bigger (35'), the sail is bigger, and I expected more effort to furl the sail. Last year was my first with boat, and it was very difficult to furl the sail. I am pretty strong, and it took a lot of effort to furl the sail. This past spring I spent some time cleaning and lubricating the furler. I also worked on betting the forstay / backstay tension correct. The furler worked better this year, but does not work nearly as well as the furlex.

So the level of effort to furl the sail will depend on your particular furler, sail and sail size, as well as halyard and stay tension. But, on a 41' boat, I don't think a 98 lb weakling will be able to furl it without a winch.

Good luck,
Barry

 

I have a Selden Furlex 100S on my Pearson 26 & was cautioned to never use a winch to furl the sail... if you need the winch, something is wrong and you'll probably break something (like a forestay) ... agree w/ running on a broad reach/beam reach/downwind to let the main help shield the jib for furling purposes....

Jon

 

Halyard Wrap

Keel Haulin,

The op was concerned about a furler that did not furl easily but eventually did when winched. Therefore halyard wrap was not an issue or it wouldn't have furled at all without unrolling the sail by hand around the forestay or a series of jibes to unwrap it.

The reason a halyard wraps has all to do with the angle the halyard makes between the top of the swivel and the block in the mast. If there isn't an angle, then the halyard is parallel to the headstay and it wraps easier. They sell restrainers to deal with this if the geometry of your setup doesn't allow an angle.

You may have noticed that I mentioned slacking the halyard until some wrinkles appear in the luff of the sail. This small adjustment will relieve any added tension on the furling system and allow the upper bearing to swivel freely. When this upper bearing does not swivel freely, and turns with the foils is when the halyard wraps.

You are correct that the bearings need maintenance on most furling systems. I have owned several Harkens, a Selden and and a Streamstay and have worked on and sailed many boats with a ProFurl, one of the only units that has sealed bearings for the life of the system.

Good Luck,

121Guy

 

Keel Haulin,

The op was concerned about a furler that did not furl easily but eventually did when winched. Therefore halyard wrap was not an issue or it wouldn't have furled at all without unrolling the sail by hand around the forestay or a series of jibes to unwrap it.

The reason a halyard wraps has all to do with the angle the halyard makes between the top of the swivel and the block in the mast. If there isn't an angle, then the halyard is parallel to the headstay and it wraps easier.

Yes, I know this and is what I was trying to point out in my first post. Most masthead sloops have halyards that go over the sheave box and internally down the mast; there is no angle between the forestay and the halyard. Before I purchased my boat the PO was showing us the headsail at the dock; unfurled and then it would not roll back up. The Harken furler was brand new. The owner started cussing and yanking the furler and eventually the sail rolled up. At the time I was not familiar with the boat and did not notice a wrapped halyard but I was trying to get him to stop jerking the furling line because I was afraid of the damage it might do to the furler. Well it turned out that there was nothing wrong with the furler; but the un-tensioned halyard was wrapping up around the headstay/foil and caused it to bind.

He did manage to force the furler to roll in the sail, but at the expense of tweaking the foil at the point where the halyard was binding on the foil (I did not see this until after the boat was purchased; but it is only a slight bend). If he had put the furling line on the winch I fear that he would have ruined an otherwise new furler or foil. Adding a pennant between the head of the sail and the swivel resolved the issue. I suppose instead of a wire pennant; a pennant made of dyneema that is eye spliced would be a good choice also. We keep the halyard tight to prevent the smaller length of exposed halyard from wrapping around the foil now; and have not had any problems.

If you have a furler system on a mast that does not have enough angle between the halyard exit and the headstay, it's a good idea to keep the exposed halyard length short (use of a pennant) and well tensioned when furling to prevent the halyard from getting wrapped up. Otherwise; add the mast mounted turning block below the masthead to get an offset angle (at the potential expense of being able to fully tension the luff of the headsail).

JMHO...

 

Another thing to consider is the age of your furling line. Mine was furling a little stiff, on a similar sized boat with a well serviced furler. I noticed a slightly chafed spot on the line and used that as an excuse to replace with new. The difference was pretty amazing.

Where previously I had always needed to do the furling, after simply replacing the line my wife could furl it easily in 20 knots. It was the only thing we changed, and I'd wager that the required pull was reduced by a good 20%.

As lines age, they stiffen, especially ones which are exposed a lot, like mainsheet, traveler and furling lines.

 

Halyard wrap should not be an issue with a properly installed ProFurl furler. The furler head should have a stainless strap the goes up between a (teflon?) donut which is securely attached to the headstay and positioned with a 30 to 45 decree opening centered towards the mast. When properly installed and the headsail is hoisted to the correct height, this strap and the opening in the donut insures that halyard wrap will not occur. I also know (from expensive experience...) that you have to be very careful when raising the headsail at the dock if the wind is not on your nose! At that time, I was not aware of the slot and got impatient trying to get the jib to full hoist. Basically, I busted the donut. When the pieces hit the deck, I quickly learned something about my "new to me boat" and the furler design. Since then (and after dropping the headstay to replace the donut), I have been very diligent about alignment of the strap and the opening.

This is also the first boat I have owned with a furler, but after 6 years, I am very pleased with the ProFurl design and ease of use. I especially like the access to the forestay turn buckle that this furler allows.

-michael

 

Furling in High Winds

I replace the original furling line for one considerably longer and always keep it on a winch ( use a winch that is not normally in use). Works great!

 

Might work great, but IMHO, you'd be better off setting up the furler so the winch wasn't a requirement. Using a winch to furl a RF headsail can often do massive damage to the rig.

I replace the original furling line for one considerably longer and always keep it on a winch ( use a winch that is not normally in use). Works great!

 

All good information. As an operator of a charter company my
daughter has seen many a problem resulting from furling in a headsail
with a winch. As the manufactors state NEVER put the furling system
that is under load on a winch. The best way is well off the wind, not
necessarily dead downwind but enough to let it stream like a flag. This will reduce the load. I use this tecnique with great success on our Gulftsr 50 (which I singlehand on charters). This will also work even when there is no main to blacket it. Just my two cents.

 

Check the line lead angles all the way back to the cockpit. See if you can work out how to reduce angle changes to the minimum. This helped me out after running into the same situation.

 

How does your girlfriend feel about sailing these days etc

Brett,

With your size boat and high winds, even if everything is optimum with your rig, the strength needed to pull in the jib can be more than one guy can handle. Blanketing the jib with the main always works, but as Faster mentions, in rough seas you're setting yourself up for an accidental jibe. Sometimes I put a reefed main up for a downwind run simply for that purpose - it'd be easier to run under jib alone, except when I have to get the damned thing in! I agree with Faster that

Generally if you need a winch to get the sail furled either you're doing it wrong, or there's a mechanical problem, or a substandard furler.

if we consider "doing it wrong" not having enough people-power to heave-ho the thing in when you need to. However, having to pull on the line with more force than one guy can muster is not necessarily indicative of a mechanical problem (although it CAN be.) Larger boats solve the problem with hydraulic furling.

The problem with the winch is that it exerts a steady pull, whereas the best way to get the jib in with minimum force is to haul in a lot at the odd times that everything lines up just right. If I need to use a winch I never use the little one we have for the furling line - I go for the unused primary. That way when the strain lets up I can get in a lot. And yes, be sure to have extra wraps on the furling drum - as many as it can hold. This not only prevents you from running out of line, but effectively increases the diameter of the drum and gives you more mechanical advantage.

Something no one's mentioned as yet- you can always DROP the jib instead of furling it. I've done this before when a furling line parted - it's no big deal. However, in your situation you were probably too short handed to keep everything under control.

And yes, how DOES your girlfriend feel about sailing these days?
Yrs,

Chris

 

......Something no one's mentioned as yet- you can always DROP the jib instead of furling it. I've done this before when a furling line parted - it's no big deal. However, in your situation you were probably too short handed to keep everything under control......

... and adding to the difficulty of their situation at that time is the fact that a luff rope genoa is hard to keep on deck during a drop in a breeze - unlike a hanked jib which is at least fully attached even if part of it goes over the side.

While Profurl clearly advocates using a winch (and many have done so, apparently), if you take reasonable steps to reduce the load on the system everything will work more easily for all concerned.

 

high wind furling

I used a Pro-Furl on a Hunter 40 in the San Francisco Bay area for many years and furled a 110 genoa in up to 50K winds. It would wind up on any point of sail. Before buying it I called the engineers at PF and they told me to put it on a winch and grind away, it can (and did) take it.

Steve Joyce

 

Furling topic

Hi! I have a Harken furling system on a 36 ft sloop, it is about 25 years old. The system has worked well except for some difficulty in 10 to 15 knot winds when I found it necessary to let the jib halyard off a bit then the furker worked fine. This past summer in a stronger blow 25 knots, gusting higher, and running before the wind the furler froze and would not furl what so ever. I was able to bring the boat into the wind under power and dropped the sail. I examined the furler once I was back on my mooring and found that a lock ring on the top swivel had become dislodged and the center of the swivel seperated enough to cause the mechanism to jam on itself. The lock ring was distoted and could not be reinstalled. I ordered a replacement part which a Harken supplier had sent to my mail address ( 4 days). The part was installed and the sail replaced on the foil. The system worked fine and worked well in strong wind as well. It is clear that tremendous loads are placed on the furling gear and that wear or part failure can cause serious problems in most abnormal situations, spare parts and a contingency plan for a non working furler is needed for all skippers. I have yet to determine what my stratgy/response would be to a jammed furler with a sail 25 % furled. How one secure the sail or remove it in an emergency? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Diamond-

There's a good post by Giulietta on securing a jammed roller furling genny. I'll see if I can dig it up for you.