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Tell EPA to Wait on Ethanol Increase (from BoatUS Magazine)

The ethanol industry is asking the Environmental Protection Agency to increase ethanol in gasoline to 15% (E15), without conducting research on what this will do to your boat. It's well established that the current 10% Ethanol level (E10) causes big problems for some marine engines and fuel systems, and rushing E15 fuel to market, without research, could be a disaster.

But 54 ethanol producers can't wait. They've asked EPA to allow E15 fuel and you have until July 20 to tell the agency, No, at least not with out testing because today's boats are not designed or warranteed for fuel above E10.

Send your comments directly to the EPA at NMMA - Government Center But please act today. July 20 is the deadline.
 

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Ethanol is such a bad idea, and everyone knows it. Of course, the ethanol producers want it to be government mandated! Wouldn't you like to have the market cornered on a product that is suddenly required by law?
 

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I do nto personally like E10, one of my trucks gets 10MPG with straight gas, 8 with E10, so for every 100 miles I drive, I use 10 Gals of straight gas, and with E10, just under 11 gals of straight gas and 1.5 gals of ethanol! Makes sense does it not?!?!? NOT! This is supposed to remove our dependence on foreign oil?


oops. sorry about the political rant!

Marty
 

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Semi Jim,
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I have just finnished connecting to the NMMA website and sending my letter opposing the use of E-15. It was quick and easy and I encourage all sailors to do likewise. Rick
 

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The reason you get lower fuel efficiency with E10 than with the older MTBE-formulated gasoline is simple... Ethanol is an fuel oxygenator, since all alcohols have an OOH group on one end. This means that the fuel will burn slightly cleaner... but it will also reduce fuel efficiency, since you're now paying for oxygen in your fuel. Any space taken up by oxygen in the fuel is going to reduce the energy content of the fuel since, previously, the oxygen was all free... it came from the air the engine aspirated. :)

I do nto personally like E10, one of my trucks gets 10MPG with straight gas, 8 with E10, so for every 100 miles I drive, I use 10 Gals of straight gas, and with E10, just under 11 gals of straight gas and 1.5 gals of ethanol! Makes sense does it not?!?!? NOT! This is supposed to remove our dependence on foreign oil?


oops. sorry about the political rant!

Marty
 

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also the fact that alky has 20 % less btu's than gas does not help either. my big question is how long will the catalytic converters last with less heat keeping them clean.

my big compliant with alky fuel is, its not green, it takes way more energy to make it. not that i am a greeny and far from it, but we have to pay for the energy that goes in to making too, and right now the .gov subsidizes it to keep it cheap
 

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Recognizing that the boating community represents a tiny fraction of the carbon emission problem from gasoline combustion, it seems doubtful there would be any impact if EVERYONE wrote comments against the E increase. The reality is that we are not representative of the larger issue.

If it makes that much difference to you, why not just use E-free fuel in your engines? It is widely available.
 

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Alky-free gas?

From k1vsk: "why not just use E-free fuel in your engines? It is widely available."

Where? :confused:
 

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I suggest you consider the storage stability issues of bio-diesel - it's coming

I got a diesel. If they put it in diesel I'll make my own fuel. diesels with run on just about anything.
But, it sucks for gas motors. Alot of people having trouble w/ it. I heard it tears up the fiberglass fuel tanks ! and hoses and such as well.
I would think that the alcohol/ethenol would draw alot of moisture into the fuel also ?

Though biodiesel is OK in cars, it has been a failure in stand-by applications, and boats are like that.
 

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E-10 is MANDATED in most major cities, it is not something the customers asked for.

Recognizing that the boating community represents a tiny fraction of the carbon emission problem from gasoline combustion, it seems doubtful there would be any impact if EVERYONE wrote comments against the E increase. The reality is that we are not representative of the larger issue.

If it makes that much difference to you, why not just use E-free fuel in your engines? It is widely available.
And I would bet that is where the serious gallons go.
 

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I'd point out that K1vsk has never let facts get in the way of what he posts.
 

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The real tradgety is financial - it is EVERYONES problem

In 2008 the Highway trust fund required an $8 billion bailout, in part becuase ethanol does not pay road tax.

Much of the "stimulus" money is going to go to fill the new hole in the trust fund that has formed since the 2008 bailout. The fund is almost empty again.

Ethanol is subsidized at about $0.50 per gallon.

MPG is effected, as explained.

Any improvment for the environment or global warming has been dismissed. Too many trees cut to plant corn.

Corn prices, and thus all groceries, are forced up. The impact on relations to other contries are effected, and there is no doubt amoung rational people that thousands have died of starvation as the result of higher food prices. No welfare in the 3rd world.


We are just a bunch of stupid, ugly Americans. Just stupid public policy disguised behind the new global warming religion.
 

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Saying that ethanol can hurt your tanks or engine is just rubbish. If they can stand up to gasoline, which can remove paint and dissolve rubber, it can take ethanol, which is so mild you can use it to clean sensitive electronics. There is so much misinformation when it comes to the new ‘green’ fuels it’s astonishing. I run my car on 100% ethanol and I couldn’t be happier. It’s less than half the price at the pump, burns so clean you can put your nose to the tailpipe and it just has a faint alcohol smell and it is “good” for the environment (carbon neutral). It’s also a renewable resource, employs a great deal of people and, although imperfect, is a step toward the inevitable weaning off oil. What’s the big deal with 10% or 15% ethanol content in your gas? You wouldn’t know it was there unless someone told you it was. Furthermore, I really don’t believe people are cutting down forest in the US to plant corn to make ethanol. Where did you get this information from?
 

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Obviously, you're not letting facts get in the way of your post. It has been proven that the E10 gasoline was attacking older fiberglass gasoline tanks. Alcohol can damage things that gasoline doesn't touch because it is both polar on one end and non-polar on the other... It can also act to emulsify water and gasoline.

Ethanol is not carbon neutral. Given that most of the ethanol in this country is made from corn and that petroleum derived fertilizers and petroleum fueled equipment is used to plant, grow, harvest and process the corn and turn it into ethanol, it is not as green or sustainable a fuel as the propagandists would like you to believe.

It also doesn't burn so clean that the exhaust is safe to breathe... go ahead, and do that for a while and see if the carbon monoxide doesn't kill you... it will...

While they're not cutting down forest in the USA, they are cutting down valuable rainforest in South America to make more room for ethanol-production corn stocks.

Saying that ethanol can hurt your tanks or engine is just rubbish. If they can stand up to gasoline, which can remove paint and dissolve rubber, it can take ethanol, which is so mild you can use it to clean sensitive electronics. There is so much misinformation when it comes to the new ‘green’ fuels it’s astonishing. I run my car on 100% ethanol and I couldn’t be happier. It’s less than half the price at the pump, burns so clean you can put your nose to the tailpipe and it just has a faint alcohol smell and it is “good” for the environment (carbon neutral). It’s also a renewable resource, employs a great deal of people and, although imperfect, is a step toward the inevitable weaning off oil. What’s the big deal with 10% or 15% ethanol content in your gas? You wouldn’t know it was there unless someone told you it was. Furthermore, I really don’t believe people are cutting down forest in the US to plant corn to make ethanol. Where did you get this information from?
 

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California refused e-10 as long as they could... yes, California.

Why? Because it makes VOC emissions worse. Every locality where e-10 is used has to file for a summer vapor pressure exemption because it has ~ 15% more volatile material. No, it is NOT the alcohol that is volatile - it is less volatile than gas; it MAKES the gasoline more volatile.

Yes, these are also facts that can be verified on the net or in the lab.

Yes, alcohol can make a fine fuel, if everything is engineered for it. What rubs me is the exemptions and subsidies. Either they can make it stand on its own feet or they cannot, and they cannot. They can't use environmental regulation - where statutory authority exists - because they CAN'T MAKE A SCIENTIFIC CASE THAT IT IS BETTER. They can make the case in the pres, but not with facts, where it counts.

Remove ALL of the subsidies and let ethanol stand on its own. That is all I ask.
 

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Sailingdog, I think perhaps you should get your facts straight. Please tell me where in South America they are cutting forest to plant corn? Also, they don’t use corn to make ethanol in South America, they use sugarcane, which is much more efficient. Corn is used in the US and is not as efficient, which is why the US subsidizes ethanol. And obviously I’m not suggesting that one can breath the gases from a tailpipe burning ethanol so don’t put silly words in my mouth. My point was that it burns so clean that it gives off no odour. Have you ever seen smoke from an alcohol fire? What is the residue after alcohol evaporates? Furthermore, while it’s not perfect, it is a step toward freedom from oil. It’s not for every country, but it really works for Brazil. Every country will have to find its own solution for its energy needs as we wean ourselves off oil. Finally, I said it was carbon neutral. By this I mean that the carbon given off when alcohol is burned is ‘neutralized’ by the carbon that the sugarcane removes from the air. You’re not adding more carbon the atmosphere like you are when you burn oil. Whether this carbon has an effect on global warming is another issue altogether :)
I still can’t believe that alcohol is harsher than gasoline for a fiberglass tank. I’m not an expert, but I’d have to see PROOF to believe that alcohol can harm fiberglass. Gasoline can strip paint and dissolve other petroleum products (which resin is as well, by the way). Anyhow, it’s not my area of expertise so I’m open to contrary views, backed up with facts.
 

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Just a few thoughts...

Sailingdog, I think perhaps you should get your facts straight. Please tell me where in South America they are cutting forest to plant corn? Also, they don’t use corn to make ethanol in South America, they use sugarcane, which is much more efficient. Corn is used in the US and is not as efficient, which is why the US subsidizes ethanol. And obviously I’m not suggesting that one can breath the gases from a tailpipe burning ethanol so don’t put silly words in my mouth. My point was that it burns so clean that it gives off no odour. Have you ever seen smoke from an alcohol fire? What is the residue after alcohol evaporates? Furthermore, while it’s not perfect, it is a step toward freedom from oil. It’s not for every country, but it really works for Brazil. Every country will have to find its own solution for its energy needs as we wean ourselves off oil. Finally, I said it was carbon neutral. By this I mean that the carbon given off when alcohol is burned is ‘neutralized’ by the carbon that the sugarcane removes from the air. You’re not adding more carbon the atmosphere like you are when you burn oil. Whether this carbon has an effect on global warming is another issue altogether :)
I still can’t believe that alcohol is harsher than gasoline for a fiberglass tank. I’m not an expert, but I’d have to see PROOF to believe that alcohol can harm fiberglass. Gasoline can strip paint and dissolve other petroleum products (which resin is as well, by the way). Anyhow, it’s not my area of expertise so I’m open to contrary views, backed up with facts.
Which is the stronger solvent, water or gasoline? Ask a block of salt or a solid iron bar. So, comparisons of the sort you make are silly at best. They are off the point.

Try growing sugar cane in the US and let us know how it goes. Our farmers are smart - corn gives the best cellulose yield per acre.

How are the rain forests holding up? I think they are fading far more quickly than our forests, which is what we hope to avoid. We have made that mistake before, cutting much of the wood in the US. I hope you can realize that risk before you, as a country, make the same terrible mistake we did. Learn from our errors. Learn from the errors of Haiti.

There is a saying in the US: "different horses for different courses." The correct solution in Brazil is not always correct elsewhere. I am sure that US solutions in Brazil would be a poor fit too. I don't mean to imply that using ethanol in Brazil is wrong. I suspect it is the right answer for you, at this time. But that may change too. I don't know. Keep you eyes open.
 

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As I said, I'm not an expert on sovents, but we're talking about fiberglass, not salt. I'll wager a lump of fiberglass in a bottle of alcohol holds up pretty well, but what do I know? :)

I know that sugarcane doesn't grow in the US (except southern Florida) and that corn is your best alternative. My point is that corn doesn't make cheap or viable alcohol. Alcohol in Brazil is viable because of the abundance of arable land, climate, regular rainfall and fertile soil. Before you go off spouting about the rainforests, you should know that sugarcane is grown, primarily, in the southeast of Brazil (mainly the state of São Paulo) and on land that has been used for agriculture for a LONG time. No one is cutting forest to plant sugarcane. And yes, it is a question of different horses for different courses. Every country has to look at the most viable options for producing energy. Maybe it's thermal power on volcanic vents in Iceland or biodiesel in Canada. Brazil is self-sufficient in energy partially due to the alcohol program it has. And by the way, it's not subsidized and still costs half the price of gas at the pump. I am fully in agreement that the US ethanol content is political and a waste of taxpayers' money. You'll have to find your own solution. I only made my original post to say that one shouldn't worry about 10 or 15% ethnanl in gas. It makes no real difference to your car. For decades it has been added to gas in Brazil, even before flex engines, with no consequences.

How did this suddenly get so political anyway? :)
 
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