[Faster]

Another aspect is the strength required by the relatively short chord/expanded bulb type keels.. I don't think lead alone would be strong enough to prevent the bulb from eventually bending the keel.

A steel internal structure or an iron 'fin' with a lead bulb seems to be the practice there.

We've owned 3 iron keeled boats and 2 lead keels.. the first two had never been properly sealed and the keels were a mess until we did so. Our current boat has iron, well sealed and faired and it's been fine.

Given the choice I'd probably still go for lead, but today the market is full of iron keels so you might be severely limiting your options if that's a 'deal breaker' for you.

 

[Zanshin]

I agree that it is less wetted surface with lead. With full keel and interior ballast then lead is going to make a significant difference regardless of cost, but with external keels, particularly fin ones, the added structural strength of steel makes for more streamlined shapes.

To the thread - I'm absolutely amazed that we haven't degenerated in a downward spiral regarding plastic production boats yet!

 

[miatapaul]

I have read that many of the European boats use iron instead of lead due to regulations against heavy metals more than the advantage of one over the other. Cost is obviously a big reason iron is chosen. I am glad to read about people who have had good success sealing iron keels, perhaps we only read about those who have problems because they are seeking help while those who do it successfully don's advertize it much. I have looked at a few boats that had iron keels and thought of it as a major disadvantage.

 

[PCP]

People trash talk iron keels a lot. Undoubtedly lead is best but iron works well as long as the lower density is accounted for in the design. They can rust if not sealed in epoxy but if they ARE sealed, it isn't the maintenance nightmare some suggest.

Bill Garden figured iron was better for cruising boats that sometimes have to "feel" their way into anchorages because it bounces off any obstructions while lead, due to its softness, "forms" around the obstruction and transmits more impact into the hull.

I've seen iron keeled boats bounce off rocks and it looked exactly like he described.

One nice aspect of iron keels is that the bolts (studs actually) can be withdrawn and inspected as well as easily replaced - not so for lead.

Boats are not made to bounce on the rocks but if that happens a lead keel has advantages. While the all iron keel will deform very little transmitting to the hull attachment point (that is much weaker) all the force of the impact, a lead keel will deform under the impact absorbing in that deformation a lot of energy. The energy transmitted to the hull attachment point will be far less.

I had saw once a wauquiez that had hit rocks hard at speed: The lead keel was incredibly bent but not even a small fracture on the point the keel meet the hull. I was very impressed.

Regards

Paulo

 

[PCP]

I have read that many of the European boats use iron instead of lead due to regulations against heavy metals more than the advantage of one over the other. Cost is obviously a big reason iron is chosen. I am glad to read about people who have had good success sealing iron keels, perhaps we only read about those who have problems because they are seeking help while those who do it successfully don's advertize it much. I have looked at a few boats that had iron keels and thought of it as a major disadvantage.

If it is like that why all expensive European brands use lead keels? and why many of those that use iron offer an expensive upgrade for a lead keel?

To give you an idea normally the upgrade on a 40ft boat for a lead keel costs about 10 000€. Almost all prefer to buy with that money a bow thruster.

Regards

Paulo

 

[Zanshin]

I just checked and spot market industrial pricing for lead is at US$2080 per metric ton, while mild iron/steel/scrap for use in casting is just a bit over 1/10 of that. Even with the higher costs involved in heating, cleaning and casting the iron there is still a big savings with steel for the manufacturers. I just did a quick calculation and the price difference on my keel runs at about US$25,000 comparing the two metals!

 

[blt2ski]

Zanshin,

That is a bunch of money be it US$ or Euro's! Hence why the lower priced brands will be using Iron vs lead. $25G for an Oyster your boats size, is peanuts, ie less than 1%. for your boat, 5% or so! A much bigger chunk of the puzzle. For my boat with 2400 lbs of iron, that is $2000, or about 3-4% difference in initial cost.

Marty

 

[blt2ski]

Not to get too far off topic here. A thought, maybe sloop can reflect on BG's thoughts as I did.....While BG does say iron is better. maybe in HIS boat designs, being as he designed mostly from what I can tell full keels. They can bounce if you will a bit better than fin's can, hence why and iron ballast might be better from this standpoint. Where as lead in a fin, as paulo points out would be better, with the give being a softer material.

Please note, lets keep this to an iron vs lead part of the disscusion, not merits of fin vs full. There is another rather large thread elsewhere to go into that part of the disCUSSion.

At the end of the day, a jeanneau would probably work well for the OP, as would a Catalina or beneteau in reality.

Marty

 

[miatapaul]

Hey to bring it back to topic, one of the iron keels I was looking at belongs to a Jeanneau Sunrise, but unfortunately it sold before I could even look at it. I like them and especially the Gin Fizz and the Sunrise seem really solid boats with some real passage-making history even though that was likely not the intent when originally designed and made. They seemed to be strongly built for a production boat. I don't know about the current production line and how much influence Beneteau has influenced the line. Not that Beneteau makes a weak or inferior product, just their focus seemed to be a bit different.

 

[SloopJonB]

Not to get too far off topic here. A thought, maybe sloop can reflect on BG's thoughts as I did.....While BG does say iron is better. maybe in HIS boat designs, being as he designed mostly from what I can tell full keels. They can bounce if you will a bit better than fin's can, hence why and iron ballast might be better from this standpoint. Where as lead in a fin, as paulo points out would be better, with the give being a softer material.

Please note, lets keep this to an iron vs lead part of the disscusion, not merits of fin vs full. There is another rather large thread elsewhere to go into that part of the disCUSSion.

At the end of the day, a jeanneau would probably work well for the OP, as would a Catalina or beneteau in reality. Marty

I really can't say, not being a materials engineer. With a lead keel deforming, it seems to me that all the stress energy is contained within the boat. When an iron keel bounces off, I don't know where or how the energy is dissipated.

I have grounded hard with a lead fin and I know that the absorption of energy by the lead deforming doesn't feel like much - it was quite a shock.

I've never grounded an iron keel so I have no personal comparison, I just thought that Garden had the experience to know the difference after 1000 boats or so.

 

[Gene T]

Sorry I am late to this discussion, I don't follow this board very often. My boat is a SO40, my only problem with the boat was finding one configured the way I wanted it. You might like to read my thought process while boat searching.

The Boat

Every boat is a compromise, cost, performance, maintenance, usability and comfort.

Iron keels if properly maintained are fine. One advantage is bottom paint sticks. I don't think I have ever heard of a boat being lost because of an iron keel.

Gene

 

[Yamsailor]

I think the Jeanneau's are great production boats. The only big negative I see is their use of iron for keels. I think lead is a better material to use for keels. Lead is more forgiving then iron if the boat goes aground; There is less maintenance and less to worry about with regards to glavanization. You need to be careful about the keelbolts in iron keels as well as their attachment points. You have to maintain a barrier coat on the iron keel as well as ensure it continues to be completely encases--you don't have those issues with lead. Other than that, they are quite nice for the money.

 

[blt2ski]

paul,

The sunrise IIRC is about 34-35'. At the time, probably a race-cruise to cruise-race style boat. The Ginn Fizz was more of a cruiser per say. It can be found in both a ketch and sloop rig. The ketch IIRC is a much lower build % than the sloop.
If you like these two, also want to look for the SunShine 36/38. The only real difference between the 36 and 38 is the 38 may/should have what i will call a true sugar scoop stern. There is also a regatta version that has the surgar scoop fill in, into a normal looking solid transom, but really raked backward! This allows a bit more waterline at times, so a faster boat. Some even had a taller mast/more SA etc, ie the regatta version. The Sunshine is an early Tony Castro design, as is my smaller version the Arcadia. Also, a lot of boats of this era, do not have some interior niceties that some like, ala a shower, hot and cold running water. Wood work frankly I feel is better, a bit more solid wood/teak used, and better quality teak plywoods. But being as teak is harder to find, not as good etc, the newer models are using a ground teak to make the look of todays models, be it a Beneteau, or Jeanneau.
The boats of this 80's era were built when Bangor Punta owned Jeanneau, along with Cal, O'day, ranger to name a few others. You can find some Cal and O'day versions of some Jeanneau's, built here in the states with that boats name tag. An Oday 39/40 IIRC is the sunfizz, and the Cal 9.2 a "Rush" IIRC. having a hard time looking this combo up. Both the Rush and Cal 9.2 are Ron Holland designs.
If one goes HERE, you can find differenc models and names, with specs, and also on the left upper side of the page, some alternitive models, depending upon when built, by whom etc. Like my boat, Arcadia, became a Sn Way 28 after Bangor Punta folded, the French government found a buyer/take over company to keep Jeanneau open for 10 yrs or so, then in 98?!?! or there abouts, Group Beneteau took over the franchise. Henri Jeanneau who started the company around 1959 or so, started literally building what became some of the fastest motor race boats in France, then branced out to cruiser and a sail boat that sold something like 2500 hulls! The rest is history to say the least. SO racing is in the brands blood much more than cruising in reality. They at least are building fast cruisers vs SLOW cruisers.

marty

 

[SimonV]

I cant see the reasoning here in relation to steel or lead having more or less shock absorption. There seems to be a conception that we all go around slamming into immovable objects, when lots of the boats like mine have encapsulated keels and yes I have ran aground more than once but only in mud or sand. I would rather hit coral or rock with something more forgiving than fiberglass. At the end of the day its swings and roundabouts.

 

[Halcyon1]

We have delivered lots of Jeanneaus. They are very popular in Europe - good value for money, and generally with reasonable performance and sensible designs.

Pete

 

[Minnewaska]

We've been extremely happy with our Jeanneau. She sails like a rocket on rails with furling 135 genoa and furling main with NO battens. Some would try to argue that can't be done. While not a high end brand, our is very often mistaken for one. Probably the majestic blue paint job.

While Jeanneau is owned by the same company as Beneteau, they began separately. I recall, when they merged, that Benie affirmed they would not change the manufacturing process of Jennies, which I understand was a bit superior and a bit more expensive. I believe they kept that vision.

I have to admit that I think the pre-2008ish era had better mechanical fixtures and I prefer the teak work from those days to the new manufactured teak. But, if you like a contemporary look, the new finishes would be very appealing. Clean and bright.

I have not sailed the newer series boats, but do have a friend that recently delivered a 509. He said it was unbelievably fast.

In the end, when shopping for our current boat, we found ourselves comparing all others to her. She is the perfect balance of sailing and living for us. She is better designed for coastal cruising than blue water passage, but perfectly capable of the latter. I believe you buy the boat for what you intend to do with it 90% of the time, as long as she can handle the exception or two. That's what we have.