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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
A Sailnet sexton dug up CD's post from a few months back:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/117266-price-boats-wow-3.html
I admit, I am hard pressed to find the value in a new boat.
Before anybody goes grabbin' pitchforks and torches, let me disclaim here for a minute:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a new boat.
At all.
Ever.

Some sailors like to buy new and trade the uncovered unknowns of an old boat for the hopefully-warranty-covered unknowns of commissioning, others have scrimped and saved and worked damn hard over the years to trade up and up, with the goal of buying a boat that is not just new-to-them, but brand-spankin' NEW, while other others are just plain filthy rich and wouldn't think of anything BUT buying big, brand new and blinged out.
Good on 'em, I say!...
If that is what floats your boat and puts a smile on your face, Neptune love ya!

But I can't do it.
Or, more correctly, I won't do it, because if I can't justify the value, I definitely can't justify carrying the 25 year note, so "can't" and "won't" are damn near enough interchangeable in this equation.

I am a bottom feeder- and I like it down here.

As my 40th birthday gets ever smaller in the rearview mirror, my gut gets bigger, and 50 looms at damn near the next exit on my life as a highway, a few stone truths have become apparent:

I was never all that good looking.
I was never all that talented.
Compared to the dreams I had when I was 18, I am a damn failure.

I never became a rock star, I didn't get a three book deal and a 6 figure advance cheque, and I didn't become a multi-millionaire by 30. Thus, to 18 year old me, I failed.

And, I am okay with all of that.

Because I am a failure, because I am nothing but unrealized potential stuffed into a pair of Dockers, (aka Toughskins for adults) I have learned the life hacks and workarounds necessary to live like I made it.
Which is why sailing is perfect for me.

There are virtually no seaworthy 40 year old 30 foot powerboats on the market for under the price of a 2007 Hyundai...
but there are a crapload of perfectly acceptable sailboats out there for four figures. The best part? I can sail the bejeezus out of a $5000 boat for four or five seasons and likely sell it for....
....$5000.
and if I can't?
Hell, even if I have to give it away five seasons down the road, my loss is only $1000/year.
Less than $3 a day.
A draft beer a day.

When was the last time a draft beer gave us this much fun, this many grins, this much excitement and life?

Yes, I hear you, Yeahbutniks: "Yeah, but, there are repairs and maintenance and upgrades and dockage and ..."

...and all of that is cheaper down here on the bottom as well. When you buy an expensive boat, the idea of buying used gear is, to some, a little unseemly, and rightly so. Used gear on a newish boat devalues the boat and raises suspicions of the next buyer.
It is also a lot less nerve-wracking to drill new holes in an old deck than it is to drill new holes in a new deck.

On the bottom, used gear looks LESS out of place and LESS suspicious than NEW gear.
As Gunny Highway said, "You improvise, you adapt, you overcome."

Oh yeah, back to that nerve-wracking thing- with less invested, there is less risk in attempting new skills and new (at least to you) ideas to refit or upgrade your ride.

A generation ago, a 30 foot cruising boat was what you traded up TO, and you kept her for 20 years, because you'd made it- you had space and luxury, and comfort to cruise or weekend comfortably- it was the boat you never felt you would outgrow...and most didn't.

Today, a 30 foot boat is the marketed as an "entry level" cruising boat, a boat to start with, and trade out of as quickly as possible.

Thankfully.

Because the more often a boat is traded, the faster it depreciates, and the sooner it hits the bottom of it's depreciation curve, which means there is a whole new batch of boats at the bottom of their depreciation curve sooner, hopefully for new generations of adventuresome failures to discover.

and the price of admission is only a draft beer a day.




If you're a bottom feeder, keep on keeping on. And take a newbie for a sail every once in a while. We need more greenhorns sailing.

After all, we need someone to sell our boats to.
 

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Bring On The Wind
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Ah there is nothing better than to know than that the skin you live in is yours. When I first got into this crazy lifestyle known as sailing it wasn't because I wanted a certain type of boat, I just wanted to sail and now so many years later I still just want to sail, although I do have a severe case of three foot itis at present. The newest boat I have owned is my present, a 1976 that I am perfectly content with and still think is a damned good looking boat. Do I dream of being able to have a boat built for me, yes, is it going to happen, not likely but I am content sailing my days away on the boat I have.
 

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I dont know to call you bullsh!t for calling yourself a bottom feeder.
Anyway, you called it yourself so I will reply: Bullsh!t Or if the forum allows (in Australian) Bullfuckingshit!

The rest of your post is wrong in so many ways too.... Each person buys what they want and can afford, but its back end as well as front end. Theres plenty of people out there that buy older boats and spend lots of time fixing them up. Thats not me! I buy a boat I can afford and then when I am finished with it it will be a project boat!

My life is not based around varnishing some bit of wood. Its about getting out there and being a tourist, drinking booze, doing some sailing and getting LAID! Its not about using an f'ing sextant, polishing the binnacle, or wanking the fibreglass.

So don't read these forums as someones advice being for everyone... Its not. Every person and every boat is different. Where theres a fit its great. But each fit is totally individual.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Where theres a fit its great. But each fit is totally individual.
exactly. Not sure what got you all fired up, because i am not quite sure where you and i disagree. There is nothing at all wrong with buying a new boat, nothing at all wrong with buying a boat somewhere in the vast middle. I think i covered that in the first paragraph or two.

I was just pointing out why I like what I like. and that you don't have to be a success to sail, because theres lots of good stuff on the bottom, that doesn't require " using an f'ing sextant, polishing the binnacle, or wanking the fibreglass."

Personally Ive never had any problem making time for drinking rum and loafing around and getting laid. which I do. A lot. Because although i am a failure to my 18 year old self, at least one sexy woman finds a guy who can polish the binnacle kinda attractive attractive to stick around anyway.

How you see that as "wrong" is on you, not me, mate.
 

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Seems like BJ and I share a spot inthe mud! ;)
A good, old, well depreciated boat suits me fine. Thataways I, and others seeing it, have no expectations or illusions. Anything is an improvement. A good, used piece of equipment where there was none before is a treat; not a eyesore or hardship. A paid for bastard collection of functioning parts and a great soul beat the helloutta sky-high payment and worry over a few scratches! ;)
 

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A Sailnet sexton dug up CD's post from a few months back:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/117266-price-boats-wow-3.html
I admit, I am hard pressed to find the value in a new boat.
Before anybody goes grabbin' pitchforks and torches, let me disclaim here for a minute:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a new boat.
At all.
Ever.

Some sailors like to buy new and trade the uncovered unknowns of an old boat for the hopefully-warranty-covered unknowns of commissioning, others have scrimped and saved and worked damn hard over the years to trade up and up, with the goal of buying a boat that is not just new-to-them, but brand-spankin' NEW, while other others are just plain filthy rich and wouldn't think of anything BUT buying big, brand new and blinged out.
Good on 'em, I say!...
If that is what floats your boat and puts a smile on your face, Neptune love ya!

But I can't do it.

I am a bottom feeder- and I like it down here.

As my 40th birthday gets ever smaller in the rearview mirror, my gut gets bigger, and 50 looms at damn near the next exit on my life as a highway, a few stone truths have become apparent:

I was never all that good looking.
I was never all that talented.
Compared to the dreams I had when I was 18, I am a damn failure.

I never became a rock star, I didn't get a three book deal and a 6 figure advance cheque, and I didn't become a multi-millionaire by 30. Thus, to 18 year old me, I failed.

And, I am okay with all of that.

Because I am a failure, because I am nothing but unrealized potential stuffed into a pair of Dockers, (aka Toughskins for adults) I have learned the life hacks and workarounds necessary to live like I made it.
Which is why sailing is perfect for me.

There are virtually no seaworthy 40 year old 30 foot powerboats on the market for under the price of a 2007 Hyundai...
but there are a crapload of perfectly acceptable boats out there for four figures. The best part? I can sail the bejeezus out of a $5000 boat for four or five seasons and likely sell it for....
....$5000.
and if I can't?
Hell, even if I have to give it away five seasons down the road, my loss is only $1000/year.
Less than $3 a day.
A draft beer a day.

When was the last time a draft beer gave us this much fun, this many grins, this much excitement and life?

Yes, I hear you, Yeahbutniks: "Yeah, but, there are repairs and maintenance and upgrades and dockage and ..."

...and all of that is cheaper down here on the bottom as well. When you buy an expensive boat, the idea of buying used gear is, to some, a little unseemly, and rightly so. Used gear on a newish boat devalues the boat and raises suspicions to the next buyer.

On the bottom, used gear looks LESS out of place and LESS suspicious than NEW gear.
As Gunny Highway said, "You improvise, you adapt, you overcome."

A generation ago, a 30 foot cruising boat was what you traded up TO, and you kept her for 20 years, because you'd made it- you had space and luxury, and comfort to cruise or weekend comfortably- it was the boat you never felt you would outgrow...and most didn't.

Today, a 30 foot boat is the marketed as an "entry level" cruising boat, a boat to start with, and trade out of as quickly as possible.

Thankfully.

Because the more often a boat is traded, the faster it depreciates, and the sooner it hits the bottom of it's depreciation curve, which means there is a whole new batch of boats at the bottom of their depreciation curve sooner, hopefully for new generations of adventuresome failures to discover.

and the price of admission is only a draft beer a day.




If you're a bottom feeder, keep on keeping on. And take a newbie for a sail every once in a while. We need more greenhorns sailing.


Ah, bl, I feel your pain. Our last sailboat was a Coronado 25, "poor man's boat". Come back to PWRG, or whatever it is called, way too quiet since you left. :D

Paul T
 

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Hi, My Name is Kurt and I am a bottom feeder... (crowd responds, "Hi Kurt") Not only is my boat at the bottom (not sunk, just cheap) it was cheap enough to get back into sailing after being land locked for 20 years. It's 45 years old and has been recycled many many times, I have a slip in the "low rent district" of So Cal... My daily rent comes in around $7.50 a day, thats year round with free electricity, water, showers, laundry etc... On top of the $7.50 a day is maint, insurance, and general upkeep. For a weekend getaway in So Cal that's pretty darn cheap.
 

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arrgh!
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I am so far from affording a new boat... in the size and quality that I would want....

One thing about realizing you are not God's gift to women is for us average guys it isn't a sudden realization

There are lots of reasons for buying a new boat, but I can not think of any of them that would work for me.

One of the main ones is the fact that depreciation isn't just on the boat.

Boats I am looking at is under 20'. I haven't really priced out new ones much but to know that a 1980 boat is good enough and won't cost me $18,000.. so I am not sure about this... but if I was to buy a 1980 O'Day Daysailer I could get it with trailer and sails for around $2,000 (some more, some less)...

The trailer is used, but would fit my need and way cheaper than a new one.. On the O'day site boat is $12,400.00, plus $2,100.00 for sails... new sails are the price of a (very) used boat...trailer is $1,250.00... a motor bracket is $350 which is moot since I don't want to register the boat (so not looking for a motor)... but with a used boat that might be a free extra.

One of the difference and it is sketchy. Some used boats are very well cared for... sometimes all new rigging and the owner dies..


in directly one of the problems with new, is everything has a price, unless a dealer has some package for you that includes Rollerfurling and anchor..


One thing the first post doesn't mention is, a used boat might need a little work, but that work might be a nice little hobby activity
 

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I've just about decided that even very used boats are not to low enough standards for me. I want SIMPLE. This means just a porta-potti, no stove except a BBQ, almost no electrical systems except VHF and lights and handheld electronics. I do require a good diesel engine. For sails, I want a boat with a dhow type rig with an unstayed mast, maybe a gaff rig without a boom. This will mean almost no expensive rigging and sails so simple they can be made from polytarp and simple 3 strand lines. Mast should be short so it can be easily dropped to go under bridges.
 

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Over the last 50 years my family has owned boats, everything from 60' power cruisers to 10' snarks. In total probably 30 boats plus the small ones, I don't think we have ever bought a boat over 20' new. And that only because on smaller fishing boats most of the cost and problems are in the engines, and a repower isn't that much less than just buying a boat from the showroom.

I understand why people buy new boats, but I will never be one of them.
 

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Sea Sprite 23 #110 (20)
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I admit I am a bottom feeder. At age 43, I have owned 1 new car.. the rest were used. Some were gently used, some were basket cases, but all were used can came to me a -lot- cheaper than what they cost the original owner.

Same with my Boats.

While I cannot afford a new boat.. there are very few new boats out there I would want to buy. Yes, I know they are generally much better than older boats. they point better, they have a faster hull speed, and have a wider beam so you can store more stuff and still have room to think... but I find most of them pretty damn ugly.

Give me a pretty double ender, or something with long overhangs and a full keel and I will be very happy. It may take me twice as long to get there, but it just means I get to be happier longer
 

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Aesop had a fable about different strokes for different folks so there's nothing new about variations on a theme. Personally I've never bought a new boat but I never considered myself a bottom feeder. I created my chosen vessel by my own labour and talents to the best of my ability. Lived the chosen lifestyle for 40 years and allowed my vessel to make me a better than average income for the last 20.Felt pretty good about it too. Biggest problem was keeping the hubris to tolerable levels. All in all, success enough .What I didn't see coming was health related . So I'm glad I did it my way while I had the time and wish you the same success regardless of methodology.
 

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In my observations, most who actually sail do not have a new boat. The new boats are at a dock at a marina in a slip, most of the time. All the best to anyone who buys a new boat and actually gets out there and sails it, I just don't see it happening.
 

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Yup. Jonesy couldn't be more right. At the bottom we all make the most of what we have and enjoy it that much more, because we made something out of nothing. We will have more fun and appreciate what we have more than someone that just threw a bunch of disposable income towards a status symbol just to say they have a yacht. The only thing I ever splurged for was my Harley. It's been paid off for years now and I will never ever pay for something that I cannot pay cash for. That bike will be with me until it dies. Same with my boats and my dog. When you appreciate what you have and what it cost you to get it, that object becomes so dear to you that you would never give it up.
Just my thoughts.....

Not knocking anyone else, but so many regular folks have sailed the world in boats that most people would readily dismiss as 'not blue water capable'. It's all about the person, the boat and luck. The biggest being 'luck'. We all can do whatever we want, but in the end, it just comes down to being lucky. Not catching cancer, not getting dementia, not getting killed by some lunatic, not drowning because you failed somehow sailing your boat or not getting run down on the road by some self-obsessed puke too busy texting to notice you.

It's a beautiful and terrible world out there. It's what you make of it. I'll keep sailing my$300 20' sloop that I have spent hours fixing up because that is all I can afford to do. My time on the water in my boat is so priceless, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Steve



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
 

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Dear Mr. Jones,

Should I be concerned that I find myself agreeing with you more and more?

Weren't you once banned/almost banned from Sailnet? Am I becoming a fellow loser in Dockers?

Signed
A Concerned Sailor
 

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Sea Sprite 23 #110 (20)
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A generation ago, a 30 foot cruising boat was what you traded up TO, and you kept her for 20 years, because you'd made it- you had space and luxury, and comfort to cruise or weekend comfortably- it was the boat you never felt you would outgrow...and most didn't.

Today, a 30 foot boat is the marketed as an "entry level" cruising boat, a boat to start with, and trade out of as quickly as possible..
When I was a youngster here at the Jersey Shore.. 30 feet of boat seemed huge and was about as big as most people went. Some had 33, some had 35, but most were around 30.. this was mostly powerboats. Sailboats were usually in the high 20s. Then around 1980 the first "big boat" pulled into the local marina. A huge 45 footer that required dockage at the end of one of the T docks and some dredging to get in and out easily... Wow was that boat huge and it never ever seemed to go anywhere.

Today, Compared to some of the boats I see here at the shore.. that 45 footer is average. It is people like me with their 23 to 30 foot boats who are looked down upon as if to say "that is all you could afford?"
 
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