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After this, they'll probably have to change all the six lane interstate highways to have five lanes that leave and one that enters.
Heard an interview with an entrepreneur who owned a number of restaurants and bars in New York City and employed about 250 people. He was gearing up some of the sports bars for St. Patrick's Day and March Madness basketball when the plug got pulled on things. He has already decided to close a number of them permanently and is not waiting for the lock down to be lifted. He won't be the only one.
 

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Well, requesting help to deal with the Coronavirus cost Captain Crozier of the USS Roosevelt his job. It is the primary duty of the captain of any vessel to protect his crew and vessel. Because of inaction from his chain of command, Captain Crozier requested help publicly, and was fired for it. His crew, however, recognize him for the courageous action that he took on behalf of all aboard.
 

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Discussion Starter #63 (Edited)
Well, requesting help to deal with the Coronavirus cost Captain Crozier of the USS Roosevelt his job. It is the primary duty of the captain of any vessel to protect his crew and vessel. Because of inaction from his chain of command, Captain Crozier requested help publicly, and was fired for it. His crew, however, recognize him for the courageous action that he took on behalf of all aboard. US sailors send off Captain Crozier with cheers and applause - YouTube
It seems that another good man has been cast out by this administration, for doing his job.
 

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Capta, No Question he was a fine officer! And he did what he thought was best for his crew! He was in line for promotion.

That said, do you tolerate breaking the chain of command on your ship? His commanding officer was aboard. I believe there's more to this story, I'm not making any judgement, I don't think we know all the facts.
 

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The chain of command was not allowing him to protect the lives of his crew (and we're not at war).
a Navy official familiar with the situation but not authorized to speak publicly about it said that the captain had repeatedly asked his superiors for speedy action to evacuate the ship. His letter, the official said, came because the Navy was still minimizing the risk.
This is the letter:
DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY
uss THEODORE ROOSEVELT (CVN 71)


30 Mar 20
Subj: REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE IN RESPONSE TO PANDEMIC

BLUF: If required the USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT would embark all assigned Sailors, set
sail, and be ready to tonight and beat any adversary that dares challenge the US or our allies. The
virus would certainly have an impact, but in combat we are willing to take certain risks that are
not acceptable in peacetime. However, we are not at war, and therefore cannot allow a single
Sailor to perish as a result of this pandemic unnecessarily. Decisive action is required now in
order to comply with CDC and NAVADMIN 083/20 guidance and prevent tragic outcomes.

1. Problem Statement. With the crew embarked, TR is unable to comply with CDC protocols or
NAVADMIN 083/20 guidance. Based on CDC guidelines and TR observations, the only
effective method to preserve an individual's health is total isolation for 14+ days in accordance
with the NAVADMIN Individual hotel/barracks rooms with separate heads). Due to a
warship's inherent limitations of space, we are not doing this. The spread of the disease is
ongoing and accelerating.

2. Inappropriate Focus on Testing. Testing has no direct in?uence on the spread of the COVID-
l9 virus. It merely confirms the presence of the virus. Due to the close quarters required on a
warship and the current number of positive cases, every single Sailor, regardless of rank, on
board the TR must be considered 'close contact' in accordance with the NAVADMIN. Testing
will only be useful as the ship returns to work after isolation or quarantine to confrm the
effectiveness of the quarantine period. Our focus now must be on quarantine and isolation in
strict compliance with CDC and NAVADMIN guidance.

The COVID-19 test cannot prove a Sailor does not have the virus; it can only prove that a Sailor
does. As an illustration, of the first 33 TR Sailors diagnosed with COVID-19, 21% (7 of those
33) infected Sailors were negative on a test, then subsequently presented with
of COVID-19 infection within 1-3 days post-test.

Based on data since first case, approximately 21% of the Sailors that tested negative and
are currently moving into group restricted movement ashore are currently infected, will develop
over the next several days, and will proceed to infect the remainder of their shore-
based restricted group.

3. Inappropriate Quarantine and Isolation. With the exceptions of a handful of senior officer
staterooms, none of the berthing onboard a warship is appropriate for quarantine or isolation.
Thousands of ?close contact? Sailors require quarantine in accordance with guidance. TR has
begun to move personnel off ship into shore-based group restricted movement locations. Of the
off ship locations currently available, only one complies with the NAVADMIN guidance.
Infected Sailors reside in these off ship locations. Two Sailors have already tested positive in an
open bay gymnasium equipped with cots. Although marginally better than a warship, group
quarantine sites are not a solution and are not in accordance with current guidance.

In order to stop the spread of the virus, the CDC and the Navy and Marine Corps Public Health
Center both recommend individual quarantine. They both recommend against group quarantine.
They recommend limited or no contact with other exposed individuals and no use of the same
facilities or items exposed individuals have touched. NAVADMIN 083/20 echoes this guidance.

The environment most conducive to spread of the disease is the environment the crew of the TR
is in right now, both aboard ship and ashore:

a. Large amounts of Sailors in a confined space

b. Open, shared berthing

c. Shared restroom facilities

d. Confined, shared workspaces and computers

e. Shared messing for large numbers

f. Meals cooked food provided by exposed personnel

g. Mandatory watch/operational tasks demanding consistent close contact (food
preparation, service cleaning, TFCC watches, unavoidable meetings to plan
execute COVID response actions, etc.)

h. Movement about the ship requires consistent close contact with other exposed
individuals (confined passageways, previously touched ladder railings/hatch
levers/door knobs etc.)

4. Ineffectiveness of Current Strategy: Based on current limitations (lack of appropriate
quarantine and isolation facilities, inability to effectively achieve social distancing), TR has
instituted limited measures to slow the spread of the disease. We have moved a small percentage
of the crew off ship, increased the frequency of thorough cleaning and attempted some social
distancing. The current strategy will only slow the Spread. The current plan in execution on TR
will not achieve virus eradication on any timeline.

5. Lessons Learned from the Diamond Princess: From an epidemiological research article on
the infection onboard Diamond Princess (the only comparable situation encountered
thus far) (Roklov et al.) titled outbreak on the Diamond Princess cruise ship:
estimating the epidemic potential and effectiveness of public health countermeasures:

Cruise ships carry a large number of people in confined spaces with relative homogeneous
mixing. On 3 February, 2020, an outbreak of COVID-19 on cruise ship Diamond Princess was
reported following an index case on board around 21-25 January. By 4 February, public health
measures such as removal and isolation of ill passengers and quarantine of non-ill passengers
were implemented. By 20 February, 619 of 3,700 passengers and crew were tested
positive. We estimated that without any interventions within the time period of 21 January to 19
February, 2920 out of the 3700 would have been infected. Isolation and quarantine
therefore prevented 2307 cases. We showed that an early evacuation of all passengers on 3
February would have been associated with 76 infected persons.? (As opposed to 619)

The final sentence of the abstract:

Conclusions: The cruise ship conditions clearly amplified an already highly transmissible
disease. The public health measures prevented more than 2000 additional cases compared to no
interventions. However, evacuating all passengers and crew early on in the outbreak would have
prevented many more passengers and crew from infection.

The Diamond Princess was able to more effectively isolate people onboard than TR, due to a
much higher percentage of individualized and compartmentalized accommodations onboard for
paying customers. Their measures still allowed hundreds of people to become infected.
best-case results, given the current environment, are likely to be much worse.

6. Proposed New Strategy: There are two end states TR could achieve:

a. Maximize war fighting readiness and capacity as quickly as possible. No timeline
necessary. We go to war with the force we have and fight sick. We never achieve a COVID-
free TR. There will be losses to the virus.

b. Achieve a TR. Requires strict adherence to CDC guidelines and a
methodical approach to achieve a clean ship. This requires immediate and decisive action. It
will take time and money.

As war is not imminent, we recommend pursuing the peace time end state.
TR has two primary goals in order to achieve that end state:

a. Prevent unnecessary deaths, reduce the number of Sailors that contract and
eliminate future virus spread.

b. Regain and maximize war fighting readiness and capacity as quickly as possible.

In order to achieve these goals, a clean ship is required. Every Sailor onboard must be
guaranteed virus-free and the ship environment must be disinfected. One infected Sailor
introduced to the ship will spread the virus. Off ship lodging in compliance with CDC and
NAVADMIN guidance is required for over 4,000 Sailors to achieve a clean ship and crew.

7. Conclusion. Decisive action is required. Removing the majority of personnel from a
deployed US. nuclear aircraft carrier and isolating them for two weeks may seem like an
extraordinary measure. A portion of the crew (approximately 10%) would have to stay aboard to
run the reactor plant, sanitize the ship, ensure security, and provide for contingency response to
emergencies. This is a necessary risk. It will enable the carrier and air wing to get back
underway as quickly as possible while ensuring the health and safety of our Sailors. Keeping
over 4,000 young men and women on board the TR is an unnecessary risk and breaks faith with
those Sailors entrusted to our care.

There are challenges associated with securing individualized lodging for our crew. This will
require a political solution but it is the right thing to do. We are not at war. Sailors do not need
to die. If we do not act now, we are failing to properly take care of our most trusted asset - our
Sailors.

Request all available resources to find NAVADMIN and CDC compliant quarantine rooms for
my entire crew as soon as possible.



B. E. CROZIER
The captain needed to take some action to enable him to save lives and maintain readiness of his crew.

The fact that "the chain of command" ignored his initial pleas for assistance, and is now reprimanding this soldier for doing his duty is SHAMEFUL!
 

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Oh, an anonymous source says. I've read the letter. Like I said. He did what He thought was best for his crew. I respect that! There's likely more to this story.

He also "reportedly" sent the letter over a not-secure transmission to 30 people. That's why everyone in the world can now read the letter.
 

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So I'm sheltering in place here on Long Island and have started working on a new sailcover for the boat. I cut out the starboard pattern and then I thought I used it as a template for the port side. But, when I took the two pieces to my sewing area I discovered the port side was 43" and the starboard was 47". So I am helping the Maritime economy by ordering another $200 of Sunbrella. I just hope Sailrite is shipping. But, they did take my order. Fingers crossed.:)
 

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Discussion Starter #68
That said, do you tolerate breaking the chain of command on your ship? His commanding officer was aboard. I believe there's more to this story, I'm not making any judgement, I don't think we know all the facts.
You bring up a good point. I really cannot answer that though, as I've never been in a situation as a vessel's master where the chain of command extended above my head. The only person between myself and the owner, or the marine division manager was usually just a secretary. If my boss and I disagreed, we either worked things out or I moved on. Several times I have fought valiantly and in vain for my crew. Jobs were pretty easy to get back then.
As a captain, I was generally available to the crew. On the cruise ship (250 odd crew) nobody would get fired for breaking the chain of command to speak directly with me, but I'd guess his/her boss didn't exactly make things easy for them after they'd done that.
 

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I don't get the problem here. He was concerned about how the virus spreads on a huge vessel with people in very close quarters. Well duh... What were the admirals doing about it? What as the Sec of Navy?

Dismissing him accomplished nothing. The cat was already out of the bag. Navy had and probably still does not have a separation policy or any C19 policy... maybe because the fact of the matter is a naval vessel is a perfect environment for a virus like C19 to spread. Any person with a pea sized brain could figure that one out.

Or maybe there was some other reason to fire the man who did the right thing and ALSO exposed a flaw in navy practice?
 

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Oh, an anonymous source says. I've read the letter. Like I said. He did what He thought was best for his crew. I respect that! There's likely more to this story.

He also "reportedly" sent the letter over a not-secure transmission to 30 people. That's why everyone in the world can now read the letter.
I think this applies.

I fired him because he wouldn't respect the authority of the president. That's the answer to that. I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a *****, although he was, but that's not against the law for generals. If it was, half to three-quarters of them would be in jail.
Harry Truman of MacAuther
 

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Discussion Starter #71
"Theodore Roosevelt Captain Followed in Footsteps of Ship’s Namesake by Writing Bombshell Letter"



I found this immensely interesting. Is the difference in the times or in the attitude of the administrations? At least Roosevelt's letter saved lives and didn't cost him his career.


https://www.historynet.com/theodore-roosevelt-captain-followed-in-footsteps-of-ships-namesake-by-writing-bombshell-letter.htm?fbclid=IwAR0XyVKZKXIEwfE0ojIB9Vo1i9T8OJbtvke62oH3KTJvtPQYKXiy2py0Cxw


<style type="text/css">h1 ** margin-bottom: 0.08in; }h1.western ** font-family: "Liberation Serif", serif; }h1.cjk ** font-family: "Noto Sans CJK SC Regular"; font-size: 24pt; }h1.ctl ** font-family: "Lohit Devanagari"; font-size: 24pt; }p ** margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 115%; }</style>
 
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Learning the HARD way...
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I found this immensely interesting. Is the difference in the times or in the attitude of the administrations? At least Roosevelt's letter saved lives and didn't cost him his career.


https://www.historynet.com/theodore-roosevelt-captain-followed-in-footsteps-of-ships-namesake-by-writing-bombshell-letter.htm?fbclid=IwAR0XyVKZKXIEwfE0ojIB9Vo1i9T8OJbtvke62oH3KTJvtPQYKXiy2py0Cxw
Thank you for highlighting that article. I was unaware of it.

Rife with disease, “the eight divisional commanders, including Roosevelt, were convinced that if they remained in Cuba, Fifth Corps would be wiped out,” Carroll writes.

The dire situation prompted senior officers to meet with Maj. Gen. William R. Shafter, commander of the Fifth Corps, to recommend that troops be withdrawn from Cuba posthaste. That result of that meeting — whether Shafter agreed or not — remains unknown.

Regardless of the outcome, the commanders were compelled to put their request into writing –– a task that fell to Roosevelt because, as the only non-general among the senior officer group, had less to lose career-wise. The eventual U.S. president drafted what is now known as the infamous Round-Robin Letter.
...

Signed by all the officers, the letter was delivered to Shafter and meant for delivery to the Army Headquarters in Washington.

Perhaps fearing inaction on the side of Shafter, a copy of the letter also found its way to an Associated Press correspondent – allegedly at the hands of Roosevelt — who cabled immediately to AP headquarters.

The letter was published that same day on August 4.

When the news broke stateside, President William McKinley was indignant, requesting that “every possible effort [be] made to ascertain the name of the person responsible for its publication.”

...

Secretary of War Russell A. Alger insisted the letter had nothing to do with the return of the Fifth Corps, “however, [Alger] was on record as previously having asserted that no ships were available” to transport the men back from Cuba, Carroll notes in Proceedings.

Similar to Modly’s press conference Thursday, Shafter decried the leak, saying, “it would be impossible to exaggerate the mischievous and wicked effects of the ‘Round Robin.’ It afflicted the country with a plague of anguish and apprehension.”

In his memoir, “The Rough Riders,” Roosevelt offers a contrasting perspective, stating that keeping the Army “in Santiago meant its entirely purposeless destruction.”

In going over the heads of his immediate chain of command, Roosevelt’s leaked letter to the Associated Press was eventually credited with cutting through the red tape of bureaucracy and saving the lives of 4,000 men.
 
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The Corona isn't Yellow Fever. The crew of an aircraft carrier isn't comparable to the passengers on a Carnival Cruise Ship.

They are presumably, young, fit (few or none underlying conditions) and unlikely to die from contracting it. There's much more to this story we may never learn.

Who's idea was it to give Liberty in Vietnam? Someone likely above the Captain. Perhaps even the State Dept, as a Flag Waving demonstration. Perhaps, he disagreed with that decision? Give Navy Sailors liberty in a foreign port and where do they go? They probably spent half the cruise back to Guam treating for STDs .

His CO, was on the Ship, in the next cabin. So I presume they couldn't agree on a course of action, so the captain broke the chain of command? Why 30 copies in an un-secure transmission ? He know's the Chain! We're not at war, but you can't tell the world ( your enemies included) that you have a ship of the line that is potentially disabled. What's a Carrier without an Air Wing? They don't let those guys fly with as much as a runny nose. He knew he would face consequences when he sent the letter, he's a smart guy. He chose to fight for his crew. I respect that! Trump seems to have the knowledge that we don't, as to who authorized that ship to expose the crew in Vietnam. He, appeared to have the desire to let the captain off the hook. Is it to curry favor with the public? IDK, I'm guessing though that he knows the Full story, and other heads may roll before the Captains.
 

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The Corona isn't Yellow Fever. The crew of an aircraft carrier isn't comparable to the passengers on a Carnival Cruise Ship.

They are presumably, young, fit (few or none underlying conditions) and unlikely to die from contracting it. There's much more to this story we may never learn.

Who's idea was it to give Liberty in Vietnam? Someone likely above the Captain. Perhaps even the State Dept, as a Flag Waving demonstration. Perhaps, he disagreed with that decision? Give Navy Sailors liberty in a foreign port and where do they go? They probably spent half the cruise back to Guam treating for STDs .

His CO, was on the Ship, in the next cabin. So I presume they couldn't agree on a course of action, so the captain broke the chain of command? Why 30 copies in an un-secure transmission ? He know's the Chain! We're not at war, but you can't tell the world ( your enemies included) that you have a ship of the line that is potentially disabled. What's a Carrier without an Air Wing? They don't let those guys fly with as much as a runny nose. He knew he would face consequences when he sent the letter, he's a smart guy. He chose to fight for his crew. I respect that! Trump seems to have the knowledge that we don't, as to who authorized that ship to expose the crew in Vietnam. He, appeared to have the desire to let the captain off the hook. Is it to curry favor with the public? IDK, I'm guessing though that he knows the Full story, and other heads may roll before the Captains.
hahahahaha

With all due respect... you post sounds like bull puckey to me.

The captain was concerned about his crew. We are not even near to being in war... the Navy is a wasteful largely useless platform to project power around the world.. which appears to be more of a problem than anything else. In short these platforms are provocative.

The captain has a resume of being a successful warrior. He seems smart as a whip and I am sure he understand the (bull bleep) chain of command. I suspect he wrote the letter because the CO wanted to do nothing... much like Trump not wanting the cruise ship to dock because the numbers of Covid19 cases in the US would spike.

NB the jerk who is acting sec got roundly criticized for making similar arguments to what you suggest... And he was forced to resign.

Trump wants this attempt at his incompetence to go away. If there are villains in this story it would be the brass who wanted to do nothing and keep this quiet...

So mr tempest (in a teapot)... what would you do if you knew there was an outbreak of an untreatable virus in your ship? One that you believe demanded a solution... go along to get along?
 

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Now that this thread has gone OT.

this rubbish about an "unsecured" email... is just that. Obviously nothing happened as a result... no navies re-positioned their ships to attack formation... no air forces of PRKK were put on alert...

More fear mongering and excuse making to punish someone who reveals the incompetence of the Trump Administration.. and Navy brass.

I guess they learned nothing after they had a few of their high tech toys collide murdering sailors.
 

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Sander, you don't need to send me private messages telling me that, if i express my "thoughts" again, you'll ignore me.

If you took your head out of your ass for a minute, you'd see, that I said that I respected his decision! He made it fully knowing the possible consequences. I also said that there's more to the story than we know. Get off your high horse! ignore me if you like. makes no difference to me.

The Navy is OK though, when NY wants it's High Tech Hospital Ship Parked in it's Harbor.
 

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It's the department of Defense. It would weigh heavily on the chain of command to take a carrier offline and weaken our defensive posture. It's not civilian risk acceptance. It's military risk acceptance and emblematic of the debt we owe to every single soldier, sailor, airman and marine. They volunteer to put their lives at risk, even during peacetime. BTW, we are actively fighting at the moment, even if not a declared war. Given the average age aboard is in the early 20s, the mandatory fitness level and that co-morbidities that are absent in the population, because they disqualify one for service, the fatality rate would have been extremely low. If any. Many would undoubtedly get sick, but they would not die at nearly the same rate as the civilian population. Painfully, military command has to make life and death decisions.

Indeed, there is no reason to fly through a thunderstorm in peacetime. However, we still fly and some still get killed.

I have no opinion on the Captain or his letter, because I am certain we don't have the whole story. Could easily go either way. The way civilians or the media portray it, is biased by how they'd view an office building full of people. It's simply not the same. No one has ever died training for an office job. I think it's around 10 recruits die per year in basic training. It's a different risk, with different rules, different expectations and unless you've ever taken machine gun fire, you can't understand why. Thank each and every current or former member of our military for the commitment they made. I assure you, with all it's warts, it's the finest military on the planet.
 

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Many would undoubtedly get sick, but they would not die at nearly the same rate as the civilian population.
This we don't know. With almost all viruses, there is the aspect of viral loading which is, in simplistic terms, the concentration of virus being related to the severity of the infection.

Presumably, a ship would have a much higher viral load than normal in the civilian population (outside prisons and the like).

We don't yet know the the viral load response to C19, but there is good reason to believe that a higher load results in worse outcome for a patient. So it is possible that people in an environment of higher viral loading will die at higher rates than those in lower ones - regardless of age and fitness.

Mark
 

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Sander, you don't need to send me private messages telling me that, if i express my "thoughts" again, you'll ignore me.

If you took your head out of your ass for a minute, you'd see, that I said that I respected his decision! He made it fully knowing the possible consequences. I also said that there's more to the story than we know. Get off your high horse! ignore me if you like. makes no difference to me.

The Navy is OK though, when NY wants it's High Tech Hospital Ship Parked in it's Harbor.
Well duh... of course there is always more to the story... the details for sure.

The captain recognized that the virus would spread to all 5,000 of the crew if nothing was done to stop it... probably testing and removing infected sailors. The infected crew could infect others when they had liberty etc. I have no doubt that he did everything in the accepted way to alert command to take action. Chain of command did nothing and so he wrote his letter which likely was not sent in paper format as virtually no communications are these days.

Dressing Cozier down for failure to follow the chain of command sounds like nothing but an excuse to cover up the top brass and perhaps the CIC's need to cover up the spread of the virus. The admiral who was aboard the ship and informed decided to do nothing. He should be relieved. THAT is what needs to have some daylight...

Cozier apparently followed procedure/protocol... and should be completely supported. He is a decorated career officer and knows the rules. The whole truth will come out and heads should be rolling because this was am attempted cover up.

Speaking of "protocol"... if you want to respond to my PM do it in a PM. You showed you have no respect for the rules skipper.
 

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LOL. It is so funny to see the Fox news viewer opinions because they are so consistently inconsistent. There is always " information we don't have" that supports their leaders opinions. So much we don't know, so don't speak up. So impudent.

Then OTOH, when Americans actually need help these same people turn super clairvoyant and they " know" the cynical motivation of the dastardly liberals who for example want a hospital ship. They can see others selfish thoughts and motivation much more clearly than the rest of us idiots.

Its an amazing act of cognitive dissonance. This same bs was repeated in Vietnam (war), Iraq and today. It must be selling well , look at our President.
 
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