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Closet Powerboater
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
While I await the insurance decisions on my seized engine, I've been looking into options for rebuild, long/short blocks and new engines.

I can get a rebuilt engine for nearly the exact same cost as a new yanmar, and the rebuilt engine only has a 6 month warranty. Yanmars are new, and have a 2-3 year warranty. Cheap long and short blocks don't seem to be avalible and so far the quotes to rebuild my engine are coming out as high, or higher than a new one...

So... lets shop for a new engine for me. First, what do I have and what is the boat designed to have.

The boat is a Nauticat 40 and it currently has a Ford Lehman 90HP naturally aspirated engine and a Borg Warner velvet drive turning a 22x16LH prop.

The boat displaces 31,000 lbs dry, and with my 420 gal of tankage, generator, stuff etc it likely weighs in at 35-36,000lbs. LWL is 32'8". The engine that's in the boat now is more of a production decision than a design one. You see, the Nauticat yard used to put the same 90HP ford in every one of their boats, from the 17,000lb 33footer to the 43 which weighs in at a ton more than my boat.

So, how many HP do I need? I've been told that 2HP per ton is what it takes to reach hull speed and my experience with my Formosa 41 and my other boats tells me that seems a little short. The formosa 41 weighed in at 28,000lbs dry and the engine put out 36HP or so at WOT....

Actually, since I ran her at about 80% of WOT and she wasn't cruised at "dry weight" the 2hp per ton might be pretty close. Things had to be absolutely perfect though for all this to work and the difference of one inch of prop pitch made all the difference in the world.

Going forward, I think I need 2HP per ton, with a bit of fudge factor built in so I can still go hull speed if the bottom isn't perfectly clean. I wouldn't mind a little more power to push a knot or 2 faster in a high current situation or when trying to make a slack current deadline.

Other considerations:
I'd like it to be reliable.
I'd like it to be quiet.
I'd like parts to be cheap and available everywhere.
I'd like it to be fuel efficient.
I'd love to be able to re-use my VDO gauges instead of having to buy and figure out where to mount, expensive panels with wiring harnesses.
I really don't want a turbo, but I'm willing to listen to the arguments for one.

I'm probably going to need a new prop too, so we can talk about that as well.

MedSailor
 

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Senior Member
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I'd add to your requirements the degree of modifications of the existing beds.. This can be a big job if it's a major redesign/reconstruction of that crucial area.
 

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Closet Powerboater
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'd add to your requirements the degree of modifications of the existing beds.. This can be a big job if it's a major redesign/reconstruction of that crucial area.
Good point. The yard estimate is +20hrs for a yanmar over a rebuilt ford because of the exhaust changes, wiring, and engine bedding. I would think it would be difficult to compare, say, Beta vs Yanmar for how difficult they are going to be to install...

MedSailor
 

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Engine mount footprints/dimensions and overall dimensions should be available online (or from dealers) and allow you to compare and check that you'll have the necessary clearances for passing the package in and out of the cabin, and in the engine space itself.

Another thing to watch for is prop shaft exit angles.. not the same for everybody's offerings.
 

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Med,

Had Westerbrakes, Volvo's, and Yanmars. The Westerbrakes got the nickname for a reason, the Volvo's had hard to get expensive parts, the Yanmars I just changed the oil and impellers annually, and never gave me any trouble.

YMMV.

Good luck, not easy what you're going through but if you start new, you know what you got.
 

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Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
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4,525 Posts
Sorry to see you are providing your own version of global economic stimulus. We have a Westerbeke and it has been reliable but the part prices can be nasty. Long time since I had a Volvo so can't compare. Our boat loaded is about 20 tons and we have 58 hp. I certainly would not like to have less and probably would like around 70 hp or so.

Something else to check, there are many things, is where the service points are on the engine and where the service portals are on your boat. You don't want an oil filter in some place that is really hard to deal with. i don't know why there is no standardization of locations. Would seem to be good for everyone.
 
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Closet Powerboater
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Sorry to see you are providing your own version of global economic stimulus. We have a Westerbeke and it has been reliable but the part prices can be nasty. Long time since I had a Volvo so can't compare. Our boat loaded is about 20 tons and we have 58 hp. I certainly would not like to have less and probably would like around 70 hp or so.

Something else to check, there are many things, is where the service points are on the engine and where the service portals are on your boat. You don't want an oil filter in some place that is really hard to deal with. i don't know why there is no standardization of locations. Would seem to be good for everyone.
Now that's a good idea! The port side of my engine is difficult to access as it is right now. Good thing to consider. Likely though, I'll end up with more clearance as the ford is a BIG engine.

I have a westerbeke genset. I wonder if there would be any common parts? Probably not...

MedSailor
 

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Old enough to know better
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My personal preference would to go normally aspirated if possible(as I said in the other thread). but that leaves you a bit short of HP, but Beta makes a normally aspirated four cylinder that makes 75 HP. They have some nice factory installed options for larger alternators (using Balmer alternators) and serpentine belts to drive them. They can also do remote mount filters, and oil change pumps. I think a lot of these options can make them pretty attractive. I don't know who makes this block as obviously Beta just ads the marine bits and lots of them use Kubuta tractor motors, so parts should be available anywhere. Turbos to me seem to be a trouble spot for some engines in the marine environment.

Then you can get into John Deer, but I don't think they are going to have typical sailboat setups. But your boat is not really a standard sailboat set up. I understand someone was teaming up with VW to use there TDI blocks but they seem to be higher RPM motors than you would need. Nanni used to have lots of offerings but you don't hear much about them, same with Vetus.
 

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I am guessing that you want to get a new gauge package with the new engine.. I bet the extra labor to figure out/connect them to the new engine isn't going to be worth it...

And, you'd get new gauges.

Sorry.
 

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Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
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Now that's a good idea! The port side of my engine is difficult to access as it is right now. Good thing to consider. Likely though, I'll end up with more clearance as the ford is a BIG engine.

I have a westerbeke genset. I wonder if there would be any common parts? Probably not...

MedSailor
You can download the parts manual for your genset from Westerbeke and then could compare with the parts list for a new engine. My guess is probably not much in common because of age and a different base engine.
 
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Closet Powerboater
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
My personal preference would to go normally aspirated if possible(as I said in the other thread). but that leaves you a bit short of HP, but Beta makes a normally aspirated four cylinder that makes 75 HP. They have some nice factory installed options for larger alternators (using Balmer alternators) and serpentine belts to drive them. They can also do remote mount filters, and oil change pumps. I think a lot of these options can make them pretty attractive. I don't know who makes this block as obviously Beta just ads the marine bits and lots of them use Kubuta tractor motors, so parts should be available anywhere. Turbos to me seem to be a trouble spot for some engines in the marine environment.

Then you can get into John Deer, but I don't think they are going to have typical sailboat setups. But your boat is not really a standard sailboat set up. I understand someone was teaming up with VW to use there TDI blocks but they seem to be higher RPM motors than you would need. Nanni used to have lots of offerings but you don't hear much about them, same with Vetus.
I was assuming that Beta parts would be hard to find where I'm going, but thinking of it as kubota parts, opens up more options. You're correct they have larger engines without turbos, which is a plus, though right now my frist price quote for a Beta was higher than yanmar for the same HP. They do have lots of options, and the options add lots of cost, but they're there.

Yanmar parts seem to be everywhere. I used their dealer/parts locator and found 4 parts suppliers in NORTHWESTERN Australia, as well as Fiji, New Caledonia and Tahiti.

Part shops are good, but I wonder how important it is when you're out there. Is a part shop in Tahiti really much good if you're in the solomons when things break? Seems like I'm going to be carrying lots of spares anyway.

I haven't gotten any quotes on the John Deere, but it's been mentioned by one mechanic. Don't know much about them...

I'm prejudiced against Volvo for their reputation for extortionate prices on parts and because I have only ever been on one boat with a Volvo engine. Yanmar, on the other hand was on my wooden boat and that thing thrived on abuse...

Medsailor
 

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formerly 'BoatyardBoy'
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I just purchased a new Yanmar 4hj4-te 75hp a couple months ago. Coming from a Volkswagen Pathfinder 70hp 5cyl I have much more room than before. The new Yanmar have most everything is thought out in regards to servicing. Pump, oil filter are easy to get to on my boat, but I have a v drive so everything is assessable from the lazeret. The new engines are equipped with 80a alt with a serpentine belt(6 groove I believe)

My boat is 47', 15 tons dry and I think the 75hp is just right for my boat. It should be just right for yours as well. Though the Yanmar is a fast rpm, you will need to look at gearing and prop changes from your existing setup. It was cheaper, less weight, and smaller dimensions than the 85hp Perkins, the cummins 75hp(which from every where I looked have terrible vibration issues), and the volvo 65hp.

One thing to mention about the Yanmar, the motor mounts are 18" centers as opposed to 22" on everything else. Your Ford Lehman is probably a 22" as well. I made aluminum brackets that bolt to the stingers to support the engine. Bedded them with fiberglass puddy we make ourselves. My stringers have a steel plate under the glass so my brackets are bolted down using existing holes and then lag bolted on top and on the side as well.

You may be ok with exhaust, I have to change my lift mufflers because the VW was 2.5" hose and the Yanmar is 3".

I personally have nothing against turbos, you just need to run a diesel like a diesel and not baby it, turbo or not. In regards to parts, from what I gather, there are certain things that are in fact pricey but are a long wear items. But everything else is for the most part priced right. And there is distribution around the world, and the next town over for me which couldn't be beat.

I'm hoping to have my started this time home before I go back offshore.

Some pictures of the engine and brackets.

 

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FWIW, I used to be in the "turbos don't belong on boats" camp but then I bought a boat with a Yanmar 4JH3-HTE, which is the 100hp turbo version of the normally aspirated 75hp Yanmar of the same generation. It uses a small, water cooled IHI turbo that's been completely reliable and drama-free for over 4000 hours (400 in my hands and 4000 in the PO's hands).

Yanmar recommends a turbo rebuild at 4000 hours, mainly to replace the brass turbo bearings which start to open up a bit and let oil seep through with age. I got a quote of $600 for a rebuild with a two year warranty. All in all, it seems like a pretty good deal for a 30% horsepower bump when you really need/want it.

BTW, I run it like the PO did: 2500 RPM most of the time (vs. 3800 RPM at wide open throttle) with periodic 30 minute runs at WOT to get the exhaust gas temperature up and keep the injectors clean. Since it's generally running under low boost, I suspect there's little to no loss of engine life.
 

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Med,

rule of thumb is now ~5 hp/ton. 30 years ago it was 2 hp/ton. Increase is due to comfort, cost and footprint (size).
As others have said you then end up in the 75 hp range.

Do not underpower, that will just lead to too low performance and high fuel consumption.

We all have our personal feelings regarding one or the other brand. Note that these are mainly feelings. Look into facts, as total cost of ownership (TCO), parts availability as well as where you can find competent mechanics.
Most of these "marine motors" are converted land-based ones, made for use in vechles or stationary as pumps etc. Maintenance is an issue worth looking into: some of the modern engines have a timing belt, which has to be replaced every xxx hour, or no later than y years. Doing this requires often to split the engine, which if boat installed lead to lift it as well.

Modern Yanmars are not like the old ones: the old ones were based on pre-war designs (!), very sturdy of course. Modern are much better, but ... not the same.
(Actually, it is about the same story for all brands).

Good Luck

/J
 

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Mermaid Hunter
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Now that's a good idea! The port side of my engine is difficult to access as it is right now. Good thing to consider. Likely though, I'll end up with more clearance as the ford is a BIG engine.
My Yanmar can have a dipstick fitted on either side; it has been a while since I thought about it but I seem to recall that the oil filter can be fitted on either side also.

The high output alternator kit allows you to retain the stock alternator. Two running alternators provides a lot of charging flexibility. My 55A Hitachi charges the main and generator start batteries while the 110A Balmar charges the house bank. There is a cross-over switch.
 

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Something else to check, there are many things, is where the service points are on the engine and where the service portals are on your boat. You don't want an oil filter in some place that is really hard to deal with. i don't know why there is no standardization of locations. Would seem to be good for everyone.
One can mount the oil filters anywhere. A remote dual filter mount is not terribly expensive either.
 

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As others have noted, 2 HP/Ton is on the low side. Most rules of thumb I've seen recently are more like 2 HP/1000 lbs. That would put you at 66 HP so an engine in the 65-75 HP range should be fine.
 

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Beneteau 393
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I have never seen Westerbeke parts in any country outside the USA. Maybe excepting the Caribbean. But Yanmar dealers and parts are everywhere. In really remote places you will see just a couple of parts and they are all Yanmar.

So if you are going outside the USA I would strongly suggest Yanmar for that. But also they dont have the legendary high prices of some engines... Mind you they are not cheap! Lol

Yanmars come with their own instruments.

Because more Cruisers have Yanmar than anything else that means more cruisers are around who can help you out!
 
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