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Vessel sea trial, insurance, probate ...

599 Views 15 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  justified, 
svoutlawking
Good evening. I can't sleep as I'm leaving in the morning to go down and look at a sailboat for the survey, haul out, etc. I'm writing with the following questions, which is why I can't sleep.

I know the view on the importance of sea trials. Which is probably why I can't sleep, this is just rolling around in my head.

The vessel is in estate probate. I was informed 2 days ago the sea trial cant happen because there's no active insurance on the vessel. Thus a Captain won't sign indemnification of responsibility without insurance, logical, I probably wouldn't either. The broker(s) on both sides have had some extra time to work out the due diligence on this deal because I had to delay the purchase schedule by a couple weeks - i.e. this should have been caught 2 weeks ago and handled. It was caught 72 hours before I'm supposed to be down there to do all this. We contracted for sea trial, haul out, survey, etc. on the offer acceptance. They are to their credit working the issue, and are covering down on a work around to get us to haul out. But, no sea trial as of right now.

My first question, if a boat is in estate probate, is it true it can't be insured for sea trial purposes? This has to be a common issue since people die all the time, is there a common work around to facilitate sea trials under that scenario?

I know the state of the vessel. I've had several inspections done already, and have one of the best surveyor's in the area working for me on this when I get down there. I'm a seasoned fighter mechanic and know my way around complex systems. So I'm walking into this with my eyes wide open on the condition of the vessel.

What concerns me here is I'm worried I'm not going to get an accurate result of engines, systems operations just sitting in the slip. From rudder linkages under operations, to electrical at load, to RPM's being sustained, temps, fuel flow all under load and sustained operations not being verified. Goes without saying the rigging under loads. Not sure that will get vetted sitting in a slip turning it on and off.

My second question. How would you handle that scenario to verify system integrity in the slip?

I'm 100% prepared to walk away from this boat - I'd obviously love not to though. And I'm pretty ticked off about this. But I don't really know anyone else, so I'm tossing my couple of questions up here in hopes of getting some food for thought.

Thanks so much for your time.
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MarkofSeaLife
I have a rule in my life to never let insurance rule my life.

If the boat is good enough I'd take the risk.

On the matter of a sea trial: add an extra mooring line to the boat in its berth and run the engines there.

For rigging it's impossible to tell anyway, so use the age test. Many insurance companies want new rigging after 10 or 15 years.

If in honest doubt ask for a price drop. But if it's a good deal, and the boat otherwise well found, then I would take the risk.

Mark
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colemj
I thought probate was a waiting period where assets could not be sold? Personally, I've found the sea trial to be the least important aspect of the boat purchase process. An out of water survey, followed by running the engines and all other gear in the slip, as well as looking at the sails and rigging is pretty much all that is needed. Not much gets "found" in the sea trial, and it is mainly used to test the engines at full rpm. Sea trials aren't to determine if you like the boat, or how it sails in general, or how the deck gear is laid out, etc - you should already know this before a purchase offer.

The sea trial for our 46' catamaran consisted of motoring it from the travel lift well over to a slip. The sea trial for our previous 40' catamaran consisted of motoring in a river on a dead wind day for 30min. When we sold that boat, the new owner's sea trial consisted of motoring in a river on a dead wind day for 30min.

Mark
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vbiz59
As in the previous responses, I'd not get too technical, it's not anything like a fighter jet.
Your technical expertise will assist you in making certain ballpark assessments, probably far in excess of the surveys etc. you're paying for. This would be my guide. Value is in the eye of the buyer, and there is usually much leeway in the used boat market. You can probably offer much less than you anticipate, but, you did not mention the year and make/model so we don't know what ballpark you're in.
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svoutlawking
Good morning! (Coffee all around.) Thank you for the responses. Very insightful and much appreciated. I guess after reading copious articles, the sea trial sounds very important.

Mark - I like that. Can I steal that philosophy? ha ha. I've already had the rigging surveyed and have a pretty solid handle on its status. But copy all thank you sir, listening to the input and grateful.

Colemj - "- you should already know this before a purchase offer. " I do know this as much as able. I've spent several weeks tearing this boat apart via a previous visit to it, pictures, vessel data, comparable and have built my own power audit based on available data. With the inspections I've already had done, I know the gem I'm going in on as much as able. But thats really insightful thank you for the input.

vbiz59 - "Your technical expertise will assist you in making certain ballpark assessments, probably far in excess of the surveys etc. you're paying for. This would be my guide." I have a really good deal on it, very very comfortable with where thats at and the deal on the boat. I have even gotten a couple perks I wasn't expecting. Its honestly a hell of a deal. But thank you for the input on over analysis, I will keep that in mind.

I'm headed out to have a great survey and day and a half going through her one last time before I hit the accept/reject milestone. I've farmed my question out to a friend of the family as well.

I'll post some thoughts when this is all done incase anyone else ever has a similar issue. Rah! :coffee: :cool:
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MarkofSeaLife
Good luck with it!! :)
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J
If it were me, I'd adjust my offer to include 2 numbers, one with a sea trial & a lower number without the sea trial. That puts the insurance issue in the seller's court. If you can't do a sea trial because they can't get insurance, that's worth a price reduction in my world. How much of a reduction is your call.
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Jeff_H
I may be a little out of sync with some of the above. I have actually bought my last two boats without a sea trial, but there was a sizable escrow to cover those items which could not be tested.

On my current boat, those included the transmission, depth sounder, autopilot, and wind instruments if I remember correctly.

I will also note that I respectfully in part disagree that "Sea trials aren't to determine....how it sails in general, or how the deck gear is laid out". That may be true for a boat that was produced in large enough numbers that they are a known quantity. But for rarer designs or older boats where gear can be marginally functional, a part of the seatrial is to figure out whether this design or this specific boat works for your needs.

So while there was no seatrial on my last two boats, I had sailed sister ships. The first of those boats was a 3 year old, one -design so I knew that the deck plan worked well. My current boat I was planning to reorganize the deck from a boat raced by 8-9 crew to a single hand race boat, so I didn't care whether the deck plan worked.

And I respectfully suggest that there are items like sail shape than cannot be observed except by sailing the boat. For example, my boat came with 17 sails, but there wasn't a decent mainsail or 155% genoa in the mix. While I sort of suspected that I would need to develop my own sail inventory, I didn't expect to need to do that so quickly.

A sail trial would have allowed me to figure that out and factor it into my thinking. I might have still bought the boat at the same price, but I probably would have budgeted the work on the boat differently.

Jeff
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colemj
Jeff_H said:
I will also note that I respectfully in part disagree that "Sea trials aren't to determine....how it sails in general, or how the deck gear is laid out". That may be true for a boat that was produced in large enough numbers that they are a known quantity. But for rarer designs or older boats where gear can be marginally functional, a part of the seatrial is to figure out whether this design or this specific boat works for your needs.

......
And I respectfully suggest that there are items like sail shape than cannot be observed except by sailing the boat. For example, my boat came with 17 sails, but there wasn't a decent mainsail or 155% genoa in the mix. While I sort of suspected that I would need to develop my own sail inventory, I didn't expect to need to do that so quickly.
Click to expand...
Sure, in theory that works. But if the weather isn't cooperating on the day of the sea trial (no wind or dangerous conditions), or if the boat is several hours up a river or tributary that can't be sailed, then the sea trial won't tell much more than not having one at all. It is difficult to schedule a survey in advance that occurs in favorable weather conditions and water access.

In the two buying/selling examples I gave for our previous boat, the one time the weather was dead calm, and the other time the only place to haul for a survey was up a narrow river several hours from the sound.

For sail condition in cases like this, one can take them to a sailmaker to evaluate/survey them.

But you are correct in that if the boat is an unusual design, or one where the condition of the gear can only be evaluated under actual sailing conditions (and I'm having a difficult time thinking of an example of such), then one might need to work closely with the seller and surveyor to make sure an appropriate sea trial occurs. This could be more costly.

Mark
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BarryL
Hey,

I'm short of time so I'll be brief.

We have no idea (or maybe I missed it) of the particular boat in question. There is a world of difference between buying a simple boat like an old catalina 22 compared to a complex boat like a modern 40' cruiser.

For a simple small boat, powered by an outboard, the sea trial isn't going to be worth very much. Run the OB in a tank or in the water to make sure it runs and the prop spins. That's about all you need to do. Everything else you can see.

On a large modern boat with inboard diesel, complex electronics including autopilot, powered winches, bow thruster, etc, the sea trial is more important. Will the engine overheat if run at redline? Does the autopilot hold course, auto tack and jibe, steer to a wind angle? Are the thruster(s) powerful enough to move the boat against a 10kt wind, and will the batteries provide enough power for a few minutes of thruster operation? Will the powered winch raise the main to the masthead? To the best of my knowledge, those things can only be tested during a sea trial. The rest of the testing (heat, air conditioners, bilge pumps, galley, AC / DC electrical systems, etc) can be done by a survey.

Lastly, NOTHING (that I am aware of) on a boat is nearly a complicated as anything on an aircraft. it's all pretty simple mechanical stuff. Some of the electronics can be a little involved, but that's about it.

Good luck,
Barry
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colemj
BarryL said:
Will the engine overheat if run at redline? Does the autopilot hold course, auto tack and jibe, steer to a wind angle? Are the thruster(s) powerful enough to move the boat against a 10kt wind, and will the batteries provide enough power for a few minutes of thruster operation? Will the powered winch raise the main to the masthead? To the best of my knowledge, those things can only be tested during a sea trial.
Click to expand...
I'd say that with the exception of the AP example, all of those can be done without a sea trial. And someone knowledgable with the AP could even test that at a dock.

In the OP's case, all of that could be tested just getting the boat from the slip to the haul out well if it is located a bit away.

Mark
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boatpoker
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S
Here in New England, it is the common to complete the purchase of a vessel prior to a sea trial, by creating an escrow for that purpose. Any broker should know this process. The broker creates an escrow with enough funds to cover the repair or replacement of whatever equipment is considered at risk subject to the sea trail. Pay the balance and buy the boat, get your own insurance. Launch the boat, have the surveyor (and brokers) come by for a brief out-and-back. Based on the opinion of the surveyor, the brokers and you agree on the distribution of the escrow and you enjoy your new boat. Happens this way all the time...
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svoutlawking
Thank you for the replies all. I'm reading everyone of them and soaking. Much appreciated.
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capta
I have purchased insurance before I've taken possession of some boats. I'm with Jeff about sea trials and haven't done one in many years. Hiring a factory certified engine mechanic to survey the engine and one to survey the boat in/out of the water should be fine. The only thing you won't know will be WOT underway, but the engineer will have a pretty good idea, if he does WOT w/o and with a load in the slip. After all, he'll have the pitch and inches per revolution from the prop from the haul out, and the HP and gear ratio.
It will be another $800.00, but that will tell you much more than a sea trial on a calm day. Just a few months back I really wanted a boat, but the engine survey found some very expensive repairs, I walked away $800 poorer and about $28,000 richer.
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J
I would have to agree with Sailingfool Put money in escrow for any items that you think might be an issue during a sea trial, finish the deal get your insurance and go sailing. It is done around the NE all the time. You will need to put a completion date/time on the sea trial.
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