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Viking Sunstone Found In 16th-Century Shipwreck

14K views 96 replies 17 participants last post by  captain jack 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Pretty cool.
It amazes me how ingenious mankind can be.
 
#4 ·
Oh hell!

Now the sextant and paper chart boys have something else that we Must Have to go to sea!

Mark
Don't forget your sun compass, too. :laugher

 
#5 ·
Why aren't more of these things found? (Why is finding one on an Elizabethan wreck - 800 years after the Vikings - such big news?) Why aren't they found on much older wrecks? Are there more references to them in earlier periods, other than the sparse mention (as the article states) in nordic texts?
 
#6 ·
Interesting questions. The Alderney stone was found close to navigation tools, suggesting it was being used as a backup or check on the magnetic compass. I wonder if anyone has searched early English literature for references to anything like the sunstone. There's a good project for a college dissertation. :)

We'll have to wait for the archaeologists to do the dirty work, but they are looking:

"No such crystals have been found yet at Viking sites. The team notes that archaeologists are unlikely to find complete crystals as part of a group of grave goods, since the Vikings often cremated their dead.

But recent excavations turned up the first calcite fragment at a Viking settlement, "proving some people in the Viking Age were employing Iceland spar crystals," the researchers wrote."

Shipwreck Article
 
#7 · (Edited)
Great article. As I continue to learn more about the Vikings, I am even more impressed by how awesome they were. I don't think most folks really know that much about them.
When people ask me about my background (I'm American), I tell them I'm 1/4-Swede (since my grandfather came over from Sweden when he was a teenager, expecting to find the streets actually paved with gold, according to family lore). Maybe I should tell them I'm 1/4-Viking instead, since it's better to be associated with the sunstone than the Vasa (which I had a chance to tour when I visited Stockholm).
I bet you Chuck Norris is part Viking! From now on I'm one-quarter Viking (though I'm still and always will be a die hard Green Bay Packers fan)!
 
#10 · (Edited)
Great article. As I continue to learn more about the Vikings, I am even more impressed by how awesome they were. I don't think most folks really know that much about them.
When people ask me about my background (I'm American), I tell them I'm 1/4-Swede (since my grandfather came over from Sweden when he was a teenager, expecting to find the streets actually paved with gold, according to family lore). Maybe I should tell them I'm 1/4-Viking instead, since it's better to be associated with the sunstone than the Vasa (which I had a chance to tour when I visited Stockholm).
I bet you Chuck Norris is part Viking!
lol. one of the other things people don't know about the vikings. vikings were not a race or culture or a people. viking was a profession. a vikingr was someone wo went a viking. viking being the verb referring to raiding/piracy. while the vikings were primarily scandinavian ( norse ), being the last official wave of germanic migrations ( although i would certainly count the norman invasions as being part of the germanic migrations, myself ), they also included dutch and germans. they even gathered some irish, as well.

not even all norse sailors were vikings. only those involved in raiding.

instead of saying you are viking, perhaps you should say you were norse.:D
 
#9 ·
as i said: a wealth of information. this is cool. now they have proof the the idea that the sunstone was a real thing and that it was icelandic spar. one thing that irks me:

"Sunstones, according to a theory first aired 45 years ago, helped the great Norse mariners to navigate their way to Iceland and even perhaps as far as North America during the Viking heyday of 900-1200 AD, way before the magnetic compass was introduced in Europe in the 13th century."

really? perhaps as far as North America? someone is behind the times. historians used to deny the validity of the saga account of finding North America but they found the actual settlement a good while ago, proving the sagas weren't full of BS.
 
#17 ·
The vikings were members of a productive and highly creative culture. The superb artistry of their woodworking, metalsmithing, songmaking, shipbuilding and exploring talents deserve more notice.

I particularly enjoy their play with words. The riddle-poems and riddle-game are great fun, and the lore-poems a fine way for a non-literate people to keep ancient wisdom alive. Tolkien used them to great effect in "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings".

(rant)
That's one of my pet peeves with the "Lord of the Rings" movies. Besides leaving out the Old Forest and Barrow-Downs episodes (I really wanted to see Old Man Willow and Tom Bombadil), Peter Jackson left out the poems and songs.
(/rant)
 
#19 ·
The vikings were members of a productive and highly creative culture. The superb artistry of their woodworking, metalsmithing, songmaking, shipbuilding and exploring talents deserve more notice.

I particularly enjoy their play with words. The riddle-poems and riddle-game are great fun, and the lore-poems a fine way for a non-literate people to keep ancient wisdom alive. Tolkien used them to great effect in "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings".

(rant)
That's one of my pet peeves with the "Lord of the Rings" movies. Besides leaving out the Old Forest and Barrow-Downs episodes (I really wanted to see Old Man Willow and Tom Bombadil), Peter Jackson left out the poems and songs.
(/rant)
that irked me, as well. ian anderson, of jethro tull, would have been the perfect bombadil.

plus, he had the characters crying all the time. i don't recall that happening in the books. pansy elves, hobbits, and heros.

one other thing is how he changed the personalities of the characters. aragorn was never the reluctant king, as jackson made him.

and don't get me started on the new hobbit movies.....

one point i would make. the vikings were not illiterate. they have runestaves, that they have found, where a wife was sending her husband a message to come home from the mead hall and things like that. and there is runic graffiti in all the places the vikings went.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Thirty of forty years ago, the "Sunstone" was still considered "just another Viking fairy tale" as much of the Norse writings have been considered for a thousand years. So unless someone was very up to date, they could easily see one--assuming a chunk of Icelandic Spar survives underwater better than beach glass does--and tossed it out as a piece of worn glass, or a quartz crystal, or some other bit of trash.

The Icelandic Sagas were long denigrated as works of fairy tales and rubbish because they were quite serious about things like sailing so far to the south that the pitch melted off the planking and the lands were full of BLUE men.

And then around 1970 someone figured out that the Vikings had different words for some colors, and "blue" men meant "blue-black, the color of raven feathers" and the blue men were, ahuh, simply very black Africans. And that perhaps the Vikings really had gone that far.

Apparently they founded Russia (named for the Rus tribe of Vikings) sacked and burned Constantinople, made it to just about everyplace where a warrior poet could have a good time sacking and burning and pillaging...and, yeah, were dead serious about being able to navigate with tools the Europeans didn't have.

Bear in mind that European navigators were a very secretive bunch, if they HAD obtained potentially ungodly tools from horrid pagans, they'd probably have been very quiet about having them or using them. Viking magic? The Inquisition would have put a fast end to that, too.

I think it was only ten? years ago that someone figured out the longboats would regularly exceed "hull speed" because the style of lapstrake construction they used actually works to perform a considerable amount of air injection. Bubbles are passed under the hull, reducing drag, increasing speed, the same way that we've banned them form modern racing boats for the same reason. But the Vikings apparently were using the same technology, accidentally of not, and then it got lost for a thousand years.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Thirty of forty years ago, the "Sunstone" was still considered "just another Viking fairy tale" as much of the Norse writings have been considered for a thousand years. So unless someone was very up to date, they could easily see one--assuming a chunk of Icelandic Spar survives underwater better than beach glass does--and tossed it out as a piece of worn glass, or a quartz crystal, or some other bit of trash.

The Icelandic Sagas were long denigrated as works of fairy tales and rubbish because they were quite serious about things like sailing so far to the south that the pitch melted off the planking and the lands were full of BLUE men.

And then around 1970 someone figured out that the Vikings had different words for some colors, and "blue" men meant "blue-black, the color of raven feathers" and the blue men were, ahuh, simply very black Africans. And that perhaps the Vikings really had gone that far.

Apparently they founded Russia (named for the Rus tribe of Vikings) sacked and burned Constantinople, made it to just about everyplace where a warrior poet could have a good time sacking and burning and pillaging...and, yeah, were dead serious about being able to navigate with tools the Europeans didn't have.

Bear in mind that European navigators were a very secretive bunch, if they HAD obtained potentially ungodly tools from horrid pagans, they'd probably have been very quiet about having them or using them. Viking magic? The Inquisition would have put a fast end to that, too.

I think it was only ten? years ago that someone figured out the longboats would regularly exceed "hull speed" because the style of lapstrake construction they used actually works to perform a considerable amount of air injection. Bubbles are passed under the hull, reducing drag, increasing speed, the same way that we've banned them form modern racing boats for the same reason. But the Vikings apparently were using the same technology, accidentally of not, and then it got lost for a thousand years.
wow. that's great. when i write about this kind of viking age technological advancement people just laugh at me and say i am full of it....especially on sailing sites. thank you thank you thank you :)

'experimental archaeology' has done a lot to further our understanding of the capabilities of the norse vessels....although there are still people who will argue that they could only reach, never sail up wind, because europe just couldn't have had those capabilities until much later. i suppose it's hard for some people to admit that technology hasn't been a straight steady line of advancement but, rather, an advance, retreat, advance some more process.
 
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#35 ·
They're not going to sell you something that uses no power, and that they cannot gouge you on for periodic maintenance and 'upgrades'. :)
 
#37 ·
You mean the first rule of navigation is "Don't talk about navigation. "?
 
#42 ·
holy horned helmets, batman! a used copy is 34 bucks on amazon. i wonder if the library would have a copy available. disclaimer: vikings never wore horned helmets. that is a hollywood thing, they wore spangenhelms: often with eye guards, a nasal, cheek plates. and a neck guard or mail draped along the lower edge. i was just playing on the common misconception for the purpose of campy 70's batman humor :D
 
#64 ·
I'm sure any good marine library (or yacht club library) would have a copy - many thousands were printed and distributed world-wide. I got my copy for 10 bucks from a second-hand book store.

Aside from his pre-WWII comments on the viking ships, the book is interesting in detailing his experiences in the immediate lead-up to the war.. but that's another story. ;)
 
#45 · (Edited)
#46 ·
I thought this video was pretty interesting. From "The Great Ships" series that ran on the History Channel.

 
#48 · (Edited)
I thought this video was pretty interesting. From "The Great Ships" series that ran on the History Channel.

The Vikings Ships - Documentary - YouTube
that's a pretty good documentary. it does contain a number of misconceptions about viking vessels, their development, and the reason for the end of the viking age. in fact, they give two different reasons for the end of the viking age; each seperated by quite a bit of time.

of note, the viking vessels, viking culture in general, was not an isolated thing that develpoed under isolated conditions. the vikings were a part of a collective germanic culture, as were their vessels. they were, indeed, the last part of that culture to remain true to it's old ways but, they were not the only element of that culture.

the time frame given for introduction of the sail is incorrect. the saxons used longships, like the one at sutton hoo, to raid and, eventually settle, england hundreds of years before the vikings exploded on the scene. these vessels were sail powered. the viking ships represent an evolution in germanic ship building but not a revolution, as is usually depicted.

the one thing that we, unfortunately do not know, is the depth of the keel, in saxon vessels. the sutton hoo vessel, unfortunately, is uncleatr about that. a fairly recent scale replica of this vessel, the sae wylfing, was built with a shallower keel because the researchers did not want to assume anything. even so, it could still sail within 60 degrees of the wind.

the biggest question is how deep were the keels on saxon, and other germanic, longships? at present, we do not know. if we could find that out, it would add a lot of clarity to the evolution of germanic ship building. most people are totally unaware that the other germanic tribes used longships. however, it was not only the vikings but also the angles, saxons, jutes, frisians, vendals, and other tribes, as well. in fact, if you look at the history, the vikings were the third great sailing power to arise out of germania.

before them, the saxons made their mark on european history; a huge mark, in fact. but before the saxons, the vendals also made their mark. traveling south, moving on to the northern coast of africa and also corsica, malta, sardinia, and balearics, to set themselves up as a major naval power in the mediterranean. they cold not have done this, in an area where sails were used, without using the sail, themselves. they are best known for their sacking of rome.

another thing that i notice is that, as is usually the case, the role of oars on viking ships is misrepresented. warships had lots of oars because the vikings used oars under war conditions. not just in naval battles, as the video notes, but for stealth in raiding. unlike they dramatically claim, in the video, vikings didn't sail up to the coast to be raided. sails, on the horizon would have alerted the intended prey of their arrival far too soon, giving the enemy time to prepare. instead, the vikings lowered the sail, far enough away to help avoid early detection, and rowed to shore.

unlike the lonships, knarrs/knorrs only had 4 oars. these oars were used to maneuver around the docking areas. they operated pretty much completely under sail, having no reason to move stealthily and not normally being used in naval battles.

i think that, not pointing this fact out, creates a misconception that the vikings rowed up wind because their vessels couldn't do well to windward. however, had this been the fact, one would assume knarrs, trading vessels that often traveled long distances, would have also had many oars so they could make their way to wind, as well. especially since knarrs often carried livestock. you certainly wouldn't be able to row a heavily laden knarr up wind, very well, with only 4 oars.
 
#50 · (Edited)
as far as why the viking age ended, there are two reasons for that event, both taking place concurrently. the video was rather contradictory, in this regard. it states, in one instance, that the viking age ended because of the development of the cog, although that happened after the viking age. the development of the cog caused northern europe to abandon the longship design but, that was during the time of the normans, not the vikings. the viking age officially ended in 1066. when the last vikings were cast out of england and the normans siezed power in england. after that, the normans spread all across the european coast and even into the so called holy land.

the video also claims that the viking are ended around 1066 but they claim it is due to the lack of organization of the norse. however, the video also claims, rightly, that the vikings were highly organized. a major contradiction.

there were really two things, besides the ability to do lightning raids from sea, that made the vikings so successful. one is that they were better equipped. the second is that they had better organization.

by the beginning of the 'viking age' all the rerst of germanic norther europe had been christianized and romanized 9 to a degree ). they had left behind the pagan demacratic ideas of liberty and freedom ( which had powered their victory over rome at teutoberger ) and had adopted a system of strong centralized power and limited power to the people. unlike the days of the germanic migration age ( which the viking age really was a part of ), the rest of northern europe no longer considered all men to be warriors ( which, still adhering to the old ways the vikings still did ); warriors who were well armed. instead, the rest of norther europe cosisted of rulers and their personal army ( which were armed ) and peasants ( which were unarmed ). so, when the vikings would land, they would be attacking poorly armed and poorly organized peasants. then, they would be gone before the local leader could organize his army and get to the scene of the attack.

the vikings themselves were highly organized. in fact, some groups, such as the jomsvikings, were highly trained military organizations every bit the equal of out modern day special forces. because they still followed the old ways, the vikings were well armed and equipped. every man was a warrior, even farmers and blacksmiths.

so, the vikings, being highly organized and well armed and armored, were able to dominate the rest of europe, that had to depend on a smaller, localized armed military that was never at the scene of the attack when it happened. by the end of the viking age, however, the 'nations' of europe had grown in wealth and the centralized powers had become strong and organized. they were far better able to fend off viking attacks simply because they were able to be where they were needed to provide resistance to these attacks. the viking defeat at stamford bridge, in 1066, illustrates this. the vikings were used to fighting poorly armed and organized civilians. they wet out and got drunk the night before the battle. meanwhile, unbeknownst to them, the english army, well armed and armored, had traveled to where they were. they met with the vikings, most of whom where drunk and hadn't had time to don their mail shirts, and defeated them. it was the first real case of the rest of europe being better equipped and more preparfed than the vikings. so, one of the reasons that the viking age ended was that the rest of europe stepped up it's game and they were having to fight armies on their home turf.

the other reason for the end of the viking age was centralization of power in scandinavia. at the beginning of the viking age, the scandinavian countries were actually not countries, as we think of them today. they were numerous 'tribes' each with their own king or jarl, much like the rest of germanic northen europe during the earlier migration age. this allowed them the freedom to raid other countries at will. even when norway finally had one king over the whole country, his power was extremely limited. in fact, when the viking kings adopted christianity to gain the support of the church ( the church always bribed leaders with the temptation of more power. that's how the frankish clovis became christian and began fighting for the church ), they could not command all of their 'subjects' to convert. many areas, like the helagoland area, had a come and make me attitude and the kings didn't have that kind of power.

however, by the end of the viking age, the norse kings became very powerful and very well organized; commanding huge fleets. like most modern nations, they garnered power between themselves and other kings by entering into treaties with those kings. a king can't havre his people committing acts of war against his allies. so, the norse kings began a war against independent vikings. usually commanding much greater fleets, they were able to defeat the viking forces.

when you put these two elements together, you have the reason the viking age ended. longships, however, were still used after the viking age. in fact, it was the longship that powered the norman expansion. by the time the cog was adopted, there really were no more vikings. the event where cogs defeated lonships, noted in the video, happened, not against a viking fleet, but against a king's navy.
 
#51 ·
oh. one point i noticed the video totally got wrong, and i am sure some of you noticed it, was in stating that the vikings added a keel to their boats to support the mast. quite obviously, germanic vessels had keels from the very beginning. the keel is the backbone of the vessel. you can't have a clinker built vessel without a keel. the two parts that were added to the germanic boats to support the mast were the keelson and the keel hog.
 
#56 · (Edited)
#57 ·
Wow! What's your day job -- Professor of Scandinavian Studies? Great references. I have neven been happy with the high-aspect-ratio square sails on the modern ship replicas -- now I know why. Thanks. If you look at them, most of the sails on square-riggers aren't square either.

The video shows quite a bit about the beitass, starting around a minute in, then again when they tack the ship and sail. It's kind of funny -- these hot-shot racers with their fancy spinnakers & all that jazz claiming to be cutting-edge, and they're using thousand-year-old Viking technology. :)

How's your own little ship doing in this mini-Fimbulwinter we're having?
an interesting point of note: the replica of skuldelev 3 looks amazingly like the replica of anglo-sxon ship found at sutton hoo.
In one of the books in the Hellenic Traders series they mention how ships from many countries look alike, and the only way to tell them apart is by looking at how the crew dresses and details in the rigging.

The first story in "The Compleat Enchanter" has the main character land in the world of the sagas, where he joins Othin, Thor, Heimdall & Loki on a quest to Jotunheim to recover Thor's stolen hammer. It's my favorite of the series, though they're all fun.
In "Silverlock", the setting is the Commonwealth of Letters, basically anything written in the last 5-thousand years. The hero moves from Homer to Sherwood Forest to Beowulf (not necessarily in that order) in a terrific narrative. Half the fun is figuring out who he's dealing with and where he is. It's a book-lover's book. The author must have eaten his way through a huge library.
 
#61 ·
Manatee, i have totally enjoyed this thread. lots of good input, new information, and images. everyone is civil and contributing in a friendly manner. awesome! thanks for starting it.

it's not exactly on it's original topic, anymore, but certainly, in a closely related area. :)
 
#70 ·
Captain Jack: said:
i thought that book was ' the incomplete enchanter'. i have read that. very good book. his depiction of Heimdal is very accurate, unlike the Thor movies. Heimdall, being 'the friend of man', is a jovial, friendly God; one that is warm and embracing. he's not stiff and cold.
The "Incomplete Enchanter" only had about half the Harold Shea stories; then "The Enchanter Completed" carried the rest of them; then Science Fiction Book Club did a hardback collection with all of them & called it the "Complete Compleat Enchanter" and Baen Books does the paperback.

I liked the question game between Heimdall & Harold, and the friendship between them. I haven't seen any of the Thor movies, but I suspect they're based on Marvel comics rather than the Poetic Edda. Too bad. Some of the comic stories in Edda would make great film.

Your verse from the Voluspa reminds me of Theoden's exhortation to the Rohirrim as they ride to the defense of Gondor (it's one thing he reads on the recording, in a stirring performance) :

Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden!

Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!

Spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,

A sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!

Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!

Thanks for the photos & links, knute. Can you say "time sink"? :laugher
It is a wonderful thing that they can find trees big enough for replicating these ships. Early in "The Dory Book" John Gardner talks about riving planks for boatbuilding, with drawings by the great Sam Manning, but this is the first time I've seen it in 'real life'.
 
#71 · (Edited)
The "Incomplete Enchanter" only had about half the Harold Shea stories; then "The Enchanter Completed" carried the rest of them; then Science Fiction Book Club did a hardback collection with all of them & called it the "Complete Compleat Enchanter" and Baen Books does the paperback.

I liked the question game between Heimdall & Harold, and the friendship between them. I haven't seen any of the Thor movies, but I suspect they're based on Marvel comics rather than the Poetic Edda. Too bad. Some of the comic stories in Edda would make great film.

Your verse from the Voluspa reminds me of Theoden's exhortation to the Rohirrim as they ride to the defense of Gondor (it's one thing he reads on the recording, in a stirring performance) :

Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden!

Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!

Spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,

A sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!

Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!
that always sounds so like a stanza from Beowulf:

Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,

monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!


hmmm just happened to think; maybe you'd like a translation.

often Scyld Scef's son, from enemy hosts

from many peoples, siezed mead benches

awed the earls, at first was

found abandoned, he was for that repaid

waxed under the heavens, in worthymindedness prospered

until to him each, of the neighboring folk

over the whale road ( a kenning for the sea ), had to submit

(and ) tribute yield, that was (a ) good king

you have to watch Beowulf translations. there are a lot of really poor ones; too loose. but even good ones sometimes fail to communicate the meaning that the folk would have taken from the words. this is due to the translator's lack of understanding of the culture. for instance, the sword Hrunting, which Hrothgar gives to Breowulf, is referred to as a 'maðþumsweord '. that's usually translated as treasure sword.

it gives modern people the impression that it is a very ornate, gilded sword. however that word, maðþum, doesn't actually mean a treasure as in gold and jewels. it means treasure as in tribal treasure. it denotes an item that has been handed down from hero to hero ( in the case of a sword ) and carries the spiritual might of those that owned it. it could have been fancy but it just as well could have been a plain warrior's sword, not ornate at all. and, yes, tolkien's hobbit word, mathom, is taken from the anglo saxon word maðþum. it even keeps a bit of the meaning of the original anglo saxon word.

just so you know, the letter ð sounds like 'th' as in 'through'. the letter þ sounds like 'th' as in 'breath.'

Thanks for the photos & links, knute. Can you say "time sink"? :laugher
It is a wonderful thing that they can find trees big enough for replicating these ships. Early in "The Dory Book" John Gardner talks about riving planks for boatbuilding, with drawings by the great Sam Manning, but this is the first time I've seen it in 'real life'.
the ride of the rohirrim is my favorite part of the trilogy....the books. for obvious reasons, the rohirrim are my favorite people in middle earth. how could i not like the anglo saxons, right?:D

wisdom competitions, like the one between harold and Heimdall, in that book, are common in the Eddic material. high stakes often rest on the outcome. in fact, when the Allfather was seeking out a drink from the Mimisbrunner ( another name for the well of wyrd. it is called by three different names, depending on which aspect of it is of import to the particular myth. it is the Urdrbrunner- the well of wyrd, the Mimisbrunner- the well of wisdom, and Hvergelmir- the roaring cauldron ), he is involved in a wisdom competition. with his own head as the price of defeat, he won by asking, " what word of hope did Othin whisper in his slain son baldur's ear". only he would know that answer. of course, those who are lore-minded know the answer to that question. he whispered the word 'rebirth'.

the Thor movies are, loosely, based on the comics. unfortunately, not the Simonson written and illustrated comics. in only a few scenes does he have Thor's actual personality, which the comic actually get's right. mostly, in the movies, Thor is brooding and unsure. missing is the wild boldness. the joy in battle. the boisterous joviality.

and they totally mess the Allfather up. once, in the first movie, is he truly like Othin. the scene where he arrives in Jotunheim, on Sleipnir, to get the Asgardians out of trouble. at that one moment, he appears as Yggtyr, the terrible God. mostly, he is depicted, in the movies, as a weak, pathetic old man; afraid of warfare and ultimately pacifistic. Othin. a weak and pathetic old man.

Uncle Fox faces down Thor in combat, force agains force. Uncle Fox, who slinks away in fear, if the Gods call Thor to bring him in line. he fights using force in the avengers movie, too. very little magic, actually.

the avengers movie goes out of the way to try to show that the Gods are not actually Gods, even having captain America give a speach about there only being one god. that movie, and the second Thor movie, tries to show them as space aliens. Othin even says, directly, that they are not Gods, in the second Thor. they must have gotten a hard time from the church, after the first Thor movie. that's all i can think. even in the comics, Thor is a God. but the church does have a history of pushing it's interests on movie makers.

while, initially, it was amazingly moving to see the Gods on the big screen, especially the scene where Othin actually seems like Othin and the scenes of Thor fighting, the first movie was pretty disappointing and the new one was just terrible.....even if you use the comics as your sole source guide.

i didn't start reading comics til 8th grade. there was no money for it, before that. then, when i looked at a Thor comic, i wasn't interested in reading it because he was not Thor, the God, as i knew him. then, around 11th grade, i saw a Thor comic with some great cover art, so i picked it up. it was written and illustrated by Walt Simonson. on the first page, Thor was standing on the bridge of the s.h.i.e.l.d. helicarrier, in the midst of a storm. driving rain, blinding lightning, hard winds. he stood there, hair blowing in the wind, joyous smile on his face, Mjolnir held up high, revelling in the furosity of the storm. it was actually Thor! Simonson had turned him into the God of thunder, of germanic religion, instead of the one of the older comics. in fact, he portrayed the Gods as they really are(...outside of Sif. marvel set her up as a warrior Goddess, with black hair, rather than the Goddess of the harvest, with hair as gold as the ripened grain. but you can't have everything )

i collected all of the Simonson issues....but only his issues. his art even had a norse feel to it. some of them were very moving. when the charater known as the executioner guards the bridge over the Gjallerbru, allowing Thor to get the rescued souls, wrongfully taken by Hela, out of Hel, it was as awesome a moment... like the last viking, standing alone, at stamford bridge, in 1066 ( i believe Simonson molded that event after the historic event, now that i think about it). he gladly wades into battle, facing the legions of Hel, knowing he would die but not caring. it was a glorious death and amazingly moving for a teen with my....invested interest in pre christian germanic culture.

i was hoping the movies would reflect his version of the comicbook Thor. alas and alack, they did not.
 
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#75 ·
Those posts are the kind of info I'd like in the literature books, to put it all in context. Which Anglo Saxon Books title is yours? Is there a single title you recommend for studying Anglo Saxon culture & lifeways? Do you know this one from Yale? I think that Anglo Saxon Books company is going to cost me a lot of money. :)

Here's my plan:

1) Win the lottery.
2) Fly to England to cherrypick the A-S Books shelves.
3) Shop for a mid-30-foot gaff-rigged schooner.
4) Load boat with books, comestables and potables.
5) Read my way back across the Atlantic. :D
 
#76 ·
....Here's my plan:

1) Win the lottery.
2) Fly to England to cherrypick the A-S Books shelves.
3) Shop for a mid-30-foot gaff-rigged schooner.
4) Load boat with books, comestables and potables.
5) Read my way back across the Atlantic. :D
Sounds like a good plan. Personally, I wouldn't change any of it.. other than choosing a 30-something-foot gaff cutter, rather than a schooner. :D
 
#79 ·
Here in Minnesota people are quite proud of their Norwegian ancestry (we have some Swedes too, but let's not talk about them).

Back in the 70s some local people built a replica of a Viking ship found in a burial mound in the 1880s. They launched it in Lake Superior and sailed it to Oslo. During an Atlantic storm it developed a crack over 10' long, but they plugged it as best they could and carried on to Norway. It's now on display in a museum in Moorhead, MN.


Hjemkomst Viking Ship | Historical and Cultural Society of Clay County
 
#81 · (Edited)
Here in Minnesota people are quite proud of their Norwegian ancestry (we have some Swedes too, but let's not talk about them).

Back in the 70s some local people built a replica of a Viking ship found in a burial mound in the 1880s. They launched it in Lake Superior and sailed it to Oslo. During an Atlantic storm it developed a crack over 10' long, but they plugged it as best they could and carried on to Norway. It's now on display in a museum in Moorhead, MN.

Hjemkomst Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hjemkomst Viking Ship | Historical and Cultural Society of Clay County
that's a rather odd rig. not only is it extremely high aspect but, outside of some victorian era paintings, i have never seen a vikingship depicted with a top sail. although the shape of the sail is debated, as we have discussed, it's a pretty well established fact that vikings used a single sail.

it's cool that they made the passage to norway in it. however, neither link includes information about the sail design. i would be interested to know what inspired them to add a top sail.

as tall as the rig is, even compared to replicas with the 'conventional' tall square sail, i would think they would have had to add extra ballast.
 
#92 ·
Like Þæt? Look here, near the bottom. ðæt's on my phone with no international keyboard or fonts. You can also find find fonts & keyboard layouts to install on your computer. (I know ðe spelling is wrong; just wanted to see if it worked on my phone -- it won't let me do the alt-code trick.)

I can't keep up with you folks, but I certainly enjoy & appreciate your posts.
 
#95 · (Edited)
I can't keep up with you folks, but I certainly enjoy & appreciate your posts.
that's ok sir. after all the information and inspiration you have imparted, to me, in your posts, in many different threads, it's good that i can return the favor :) friendships, even electronic ones, shouldn't be one sided, right?

although, i must say, you did it again. great link.
 
#94 · (Edited)
thanks guys. i will have to see if i can utilize one or more of those methods. i have always found it frustrating, when writing germanic languages outside of new english, not being able to use the characters from those languages. it's not just norse and anglo saxon but also german. in the past, i have ether had to make due, like replacing the 'thorn' character with 'th', or copy and paste text from on line sites. maybe i can even find a way to type runes. that would also be convenient.

wow. you two are a lot more computer savvy than i am. i never had any idea....i feel so primitive and barbaric :laugher
 
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