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Discussion Starter #1
Hello All,

We just had a 1975 C&C 38 surveyed today that we want to buy. I have not seen the report yet but spoke to the surveyor and he told me that he found a couple areas in the deck that were wet, he actually used the term "mush". He said the port side around the genoa track and chainplates was the worst. I spoke to a friend that has had the same vintage boat for a long time and he says it's no big deal and easy to fix if you even care to. He said that since the chainplates attach to the hull below its not a structural issue. He said the hull was completely dry and he saw no issues there but I am a bit concerned about the deck.
What do you all think?
Thanks

Joe
 

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To repair this properly means you have to cut the top surface of the deck away, remove the core that is wet mush as far as you have to until you find dry core. Clean it all out, epoxy new core in and glass over.

While the chainplates may be attached to the hull below deck and may be shiny above deck they could be severely compromised in the wet deck area. Stainless is subject to crevice corrosion in the presence of water and lack of oxygen - exactly the conditions in a wet deck.

If you repair it yourself if is not terribly expensive but time consuming and messy. If you pay a yard to do the repair it can be very expensive.

There are lots of boats out there, why buy one in need of a large repair?
 

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I'll echo what's already been said, and I'm the guy who DIDN'T take that advice. I bought a boat that seemed like a steal.. paid about 1/2 to 1/3 of what my boat may have gone for if it had been in excellent condition. Figured it didn't need a TON of work.. just some cleaning up, and the odd repair here and there. The hull itself is in good condition, the standing rigging is sound, sails are pretty tired and stained but usable for now.. why pay twice as much just 'cause another boat's prettier, right? I'll have fun learning how to work on boats, and save myself a couple thousand dollars at least, right?

Wrong. Between the purchase price and the money I've sunk into some hidden problems in addition to the known problems, I've got more money into the boat than I would have had I just bought one of the top-dollar examples of my boat. I've also got well over 100 hours of labor into it. Of special note is that fact those 100 hours could have been spent sailing, but were spent fixin' to git ready to sail instead.

I'm not complaining as much as it sounds like I am... to be honest, it's been a labor of love (but not always fun), I've learned a ton, and it's a real feeling of accomplishment bringing a beautiful boat back to life after seeing it neglected for years by it's previous owner. I'd still rather have been sailing.

If you like to fix stuff more than you like sailing, then maybe the current boat you mentioned with some mushy spots in the core is for you. Pay next to nothing for the boat if you go that route. You'll end up spending the money in the long run anyway.

Good luck! If you do decide to tackle the project, make sure you post some pics... I want to see folks having as much fun as I did! :)

Best wishes,

Barry
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I appreciate the idea that there are lots of other boats out there but:
We really like this boat and have already paid for the survey. If we can figure out what it will cost to have someone fix the wet spots and adjust the price accordingly why wouldn't we buy the boat?
 

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Certainly, if you can get a yards estimate and the seller is willing to drop the price accordingly, it may work. This is a very expensive repair by a yard, so be prepared to be surprised.

You get a survey to help you make a decision on the purchase. It almost sounds like you want to make the purchase because you paid for the survey and don't want to waste money. Trust us....this will be one of the smaller amounts you waste along the way.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Not just because we paid for the survey, it's part of the reason but not all. We really like the boat and the preliminary from the surveyor (I don't have the full report yet) sounds like this is the only serious issue. I asked him if we should run away from the boat and he said no, just that it wasn't worth our agreed upon price and threw out a value about 15% less.
 

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Certainly, if you can get a yards estimate and the seller is willing to drop the price accordingly, it may work. This is a very expensive repair by a yard, so be prepared to be surprised.

You get a survey to help you make a decision on the purchase. It almost sounds like you want to make the purchase because you paid for the survey and don't want to waste money. Trust us....this will be one of the smaller amounts you waste along the way.
Very well said!

Not just because we paid for the survey, it's part of the reason but not all. We really like the boat and the preliminary from the surveyor (I don't have the full report yet) sounds like this is the only serious issue. I asked him if we should run away from the boat and he said no, just that it wasn't worth our agreed upon price and threw out a value about 15% less.
15% less should be the offer without any major issues. The best way to proceed is for you to get a yard (not the surveyor) provide an estimate for the repair, then negotiate with the owner.
Keep in mind that what lies beneath could be more problematic - once the work to fix the deck starts, there could be other surprises along the way, this always happens.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Very well said!



15% less should be the offer without any major issues. The best way to proceed is for you to get a yard (not the surveyor) provide an estimate for the repair, then negotiate with the owner.
Keep in mind that what lies beneath could be more problematic - once the work to fix the deck starts, there could be other surprises along the way, this always happens.
You would drop your offer 15% after the survey if he didn't find any major issues? The surveyors value was 15% under what I already negotiated off of the asking price before the survey.
 

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Jetdrvr,

I am not saying that you should walk away, just that you have to have all of your ducks in a row before you pull the trigger. The survey is your friend as it allows you an out if problems are found. After you negotiate a new price based on the survey you are going to be the owner. Just know what it is going to cost, as we have no idea what you are offering.

I looked at a beautiful C&C 34 from 1980 recently. Lots of upgrades, prettiest blue hull and new tan canvas, and in pristine shape for a 35 year old boat. At $40K asking price it was probably worth the dollars. Not sure if 15% of that number would do your repair.
 

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Low ball the owner, buy it, fix the decks yourself or pay 3Xs the price you bought it for to have it fixed! 1975... is a pretty old boat...
 

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An uncle of a friend of a guy I know advised an enamoured young fellow about marrying the girl he had invited to the prom. Reply?? 'But I've already paid for the corsage !!!
 

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Wait for the full survey. Get back on the boat and carefully inspect the Bulkheads that the chainplates attach to. (both sides.) Chances are that if the deck around the genoa track and the chainplates are mush, the bulkheads are also affected.

Dealing with the wet deck is only dealing with the result of water intrusion. The other half of the problem is finding where the water came from and remedying that? Toe Rail? Stanchions? Chainplates?

Are you capable of performing this work? The Mast will have to be removed or the shrouds will have to be attached to a cradle in such a way to support the mast while you perform the repairs. All the hardware will have to be removed, while you cut the deck, remove all the wet core and replace. Everything will have to be re-bedded. But the first order of business is to find the leak (s).

Once you fix this..you still have a 36 year old boat. What kind of shape are the sails in? the standing and running rigging? Engine, Mounts? etc etc.

I think we all get that you like this boat...but are you going in to this with your eyes and wallet wide open? Good luck..whatever you decide..
 

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I cannot see a yard doing the repair for less than 5000, probably more like 10000 depending what is found. Remember 10k is only 100 hours of yard labor. It is an old boat and inexpensive. But everything you do to it will be at today's retail prices.

It is being sold for what it is worth. Do you want to pay twice that to own it?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Wait for the full survey. Get back on the boat and carefully inspect the Bulkheads that the chainplates attach to. (both sides.) Chances are that if the deck around the genoa track and the chainplates are mush, the bulkheads are also affected.

Dealing with the wet deck is only dealing with the result of water intrusion. The other half of the problem is finding where the water came from and remedying that? Toe Rail? Stanchions? Chainplates?

Are you capable of performing this work? The Mast will have to be removed or the shrouds will have to be attached to a cradle in such a way to support the mast while you perform the repairs. All the hardware will have to be removed, while you cut the deck, remove all the wet core and replace. Everything will have to be re-bedded. But the first order of business is to find the leak (s).

Once you fix this..you still have a 36 year old boat. What kind of shape are the sails in? the standing and running rigging? Engine, Mounts? etc etc.

I think we all get that you like this boat...but are you going in to this with your eyes and wallet wide open? Good luck..whatever you decide..
Thanks, I should get the report soon. The surveyor told me that all of the bulkheads are in good shape and that the chainplates attach to the hull further down below which he reported was all totally dry. I don't know if he was overstating the deck issues on the phone or not. I would have expected there to be lot of other problems below if it was that bad.
The seller really has done a lot of work on the boat and updated most everything. I know he had the boat surveyed 6 years ago when he bought it. Could the deck have gotten this bad in that amount of time? I just have a hard time believing they would have done everything else they did and just ignored a problem like this.
 

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You would drop your offer 15% after the survey if he didn't find any major issues? The surveyors value was 15% under what I already negotiated off of the asking price before the survey.
No what I meant was that the offer should be 15% less than asking (which you probably did anyway).
The 15% mentioned by the surveyor may or may not cover the repair. Estimates are free and can be done quickly because they are based on what they think the problem is (they cannot see anything) and their experience. Once works starts you are vulnerable to any additional findings.

6 years is enough time to get a deck fitting loose and start leaking and saturating the core. It gets worse during the winter when everything expands and contracts many times, assuming you are in high latitudes...

An advice I was given is "when buying a boat put your heart away...
 

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Well, you could always ask the seller if he'd be willing to share the old survey with you. It may have been missed, but unlikely to escape a good surveyor; or, the owner may have thought like your friend..that it's not structural, so the repair can be postponed or ignored.

The core could certainly get soaked in 6 years, if there was a good leak. What happened to the leak? Does it persist? or did the owner deal with the leak and not make the repair. Again..you want to find out how the core got wet and address it.

You might want to invest in a Phenolic hammer and sound out the area for yourself.
Plastic mallets from The Hammer Source!

You will be able to easily hear the sound of a solid deck vs a wet, possibly delaminated one and how large an area you're dealing with. Be proactive. Yes, you hired a professional surveyor; but don't stop there. Take the survey in hand and look for yourself. Talk to the boatyard folks, if they are a reputable full service marina get estimates for the repair. They do this stuff for a living, they should be able to offer some good guidance. They may even be familiar with the boat's history.
 

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The 38 is a great boat. A wet deck condition is just one of a dozen plus big issues a for-sale boat may turn out to have. If this is the only material problem with the boat, not bad, you just need to feel conformable the price you pay reflects the condition. Get a professional fg quote, then negotiate with the owner. The owner now knows he/she has a sales problem that wont go away even if you do, so you should expect an adjustment in the range of the repair estimate. The big element in the cost is how invisible YOU want a repair to be, assuming you repair the deck. There a lot of decks around, still servicing, and wet for a long time.

The mush comes from the being wet over time. Certainly the minimum thing to do is stop any additional ingress of water.
 
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