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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Having received countless pm's asking me what is an "Old Shoe", and tired of explaining, here is the definition….read it carefully, will not write it again..



The Old Shoe:

Characterized as the only sail boats (?) whose apparent wind moves aft with increase in boat speed, (because they sail backwards), the Old Shoe - that may come in recently newly made hulls - (hence not necessarily built in 1342), as some Yacht builders found a niche market for them, especially among Sailnet members, the Old Shoe has, normally a displacement with more zeros than Bill Gate's bank account. Who cares?? They weren’t made for sailing anyway..

Everyone knows if you don’t own an Old Shoe ..you’re not a sailor – especially here at Sailnet - …and every Old Shoe owner, is given, upon buying it, a complete guide with terms, pre made wording and sentences on how to trash “plastic”, Tupperware” and other glass boats (note: Old Shoe owners normally forget their boats are plastic too, but that’s another story), in public forums..

At the end of the “Hate a real sailboat guide” book provided, is a list of words like Beneteau, J boats, Catalinas, Dufour, Hunter, Dehler, etc.. (real sailboats designed to propel themselves by wind)…that any Old Shoe owner must trash at least 52 times a year in public forums, live aboard marinas, lake sailing clubs and other sailing dedicated places such as Wal-Mart, West marine, and the Bronx Zoo.

That gives them points, provided by the Old Shoe Owners Society, (a group of hard core sailors from Arizona), that can be converted to true sailing items such as BBQ’s, microwaves, bow thrusters, and 3 inch thick windows…

Back to the Old Shoe,

Because of the displacement, normally over 22.000lbs, for a 32 foot boat, the Old Shoe needs extremely exaggerated Head sails, (the more the better, looks “chique”, so often have 2 or 3 head sails), that in turn prevent the boat from sailing anyway..

The Old Shoe, is normally a good power boat, as it does not move in winds bellow 15 knots, and above 20 it’s already over canvassed, so bellow 15 needs a diesel, above 20, needs a diesel…

The Old Shoe sails very well at 3 knots boat speed in 18 knots true, with the sails fully reefed…ahh…true sailing…everyone knows a sailor without a reef is not a sailor ..hence the Old Shoe has at least 3 reefing points ..most for looks, as above 20 knots, the Old Shoe owner is already motoring, but hey ..good conversation subject ..Especially here.

The Old Shoe, is not an Old Shoe without a (preferably wooden) Cutty Sark type bow Sprit, with at least 3 anchors, and preferably with lot of 1800’s style wood work, and complicated engravings….the hull, normally, comes in 10 inch thick fiberglass, because composite technology didn’t arrive to all corners of the World, and in the old days, manufacturers didn’t have materials and technology to design light solutions, so they had no other option that to spend week after week laying fiberglass over fiberglass, until a good one foot thickness was achieved ..ahh everyone knows a thick hull is good…not for sailing but for everything else ..almost forgot…if the hull imitates the hull planks ..then we’re golden….I love those 70’s fake wood station wagons anyway…(remember them?)

The Old Shoe, can not be an Old Shoe without a full keel, preferably 5 feet thick, in case one hits a whale, and a rudder behind all that ..because everyone knows sunk containers are sneaky…and target rudders…problem is…weight ..but who cares?? a respectable Old Shoe has at least 8 to 15.000lbs ballast, because everyone knows that in a storm, That is what saves lives.

However, because of the keel, the boat doesn’t sail, but who cares ..the Old Shoe has big powerful Diesel engines anyway.

The Old Shoe is easily recognized by the small thick one diameter mast, (no wonder, the keel is just for looks and to be used as an anti whale weapon), and a small main, only because if they didn’t have one, everyone would look at them and say: “That’s not a sailboat”.. so ..a small preferably roller furler main is a must, it looks good too..

The Old Shoe is ideal for Oceanic passages especially for people with a lot (and here, I mean a lot) of time, as everyone knows, an Atlantic crossing of 24 days in a sailboat, is normally done in 60 on an Old Shoe ..but hey!!! We are protected against a storm..

Ideal to live aboard, and to sail (motor) up and down the ICW, the Old Shoe is the favorite boat here at Sailnet..(Sailnet is thinking about changing name to Old Shoenet)…and start selling Martha Stewart and Home Depot catalogue stuff instead….



Inside....ahh inside the old shoe breaths sailing atmosphere, has to..with all that sailing performance wood........ the Old Shoe is clearly a “house”, most don’t sail anyway, and have lots of paintings, oil lamps, books, sailing memorabilia, from the days of sailing, more books, ovens, heaters, dishwashers, washing machines, rats, snakes, etc…all clearly needed sailing stuff.…

they have lots and lots of little doors and panels, all in 4 inch thick solid wood off course, that are called storage space…big diesel tanks too…since that is the main locomotion agent…
They have 345 hand rails, and safe bronze 10 inch thick robust windows.

The bunks are small (everyone knows small means safer), because they have no space to put beds with all the crap they load the boats with..but hey, small beds are seamanship features…

The Old shoe is normally richly ornamented with hand carved wood panels that enhance the boat’s sailing qualities... and reduce the noise caused by the engine, when sailing.



There is more, but normally, the Old Shoe is a non sailing sailing boat ..does it make sense??

Remember....many companies today still manufacture the Old Shoe, but nothing better than a 1945 Old Shoe…ahh nothing like sailing at 2 knots in a 30 knots wind..the older the shoe..the better.

They are excellent to cross oceans, and resist storms, but sailing…..well..we leave sailing to the plastic fantastics…


No particular boats aimed in this description…if you have an Old Shoe, good for you…me?? I rather sail.

EDIT for the weak hearts:

OLD SHOE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BOAT AGE...IT's THE STYLE AND TYPE OF BOAT...OK???

you can have an old (as in aged) boat that is not an Old Shoe, and you can have an Old Shoe, built in 2008. get it?

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Hey..I just saw a website for a company that sells new Old Shoes, check this out..

Boat lenght 47 feet, LWL 35 feet:D :D :D :D

Displacement 24.000lbs !!!!!!!!:D :D :D 9000lbs alone for ballast:D :D :laugher :laugher :laugher and they claim it's only half load

Engine > 70 HP!!!!:laugher :laugher :laugher

main sail 350 sq feet:laugher :laugher :laugher
Head sail 600 sq feet:laugher :laugher :laugher



I wonder sometimes....I really do..who are they aiming at??? not sailors for sure....how can THAT sail??? has a draft of 5 feet!!:laugher :laugher

How can people sail with this?? Surely it's not sailing..it's floating around with the sails up...but maybe that is sailing..may be I am the one that's wrong

24.000lbs displacement..Good Lord...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
How can people sail with this??

when hurricane warnings are up:))
That's where you're wrong..

they don't...they are too heavy, no draft, too much sail for the draft..they just bob around...float around with drogues...

besides, most don't even sail...as you know...why?? sailing is so frustrating they quit....

I would never cross the ocean in an Old Shoe...I tell you that right away...but...wouldn't cross it on my boat either...not that it wouldn't make it..just that I couldn't stay awake for 20 days...:laugher :laugher

Val once said, my boat would cross the Atlantic all right..but the crew would arrive in NY as if they kicked Mike Tyson in the but...:laugher :laugher
 

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OSOS
Old Shoe Owners Society
Very nice.

One error in your disertation. A true old shoe sailboat owner would frown at in mast furling. Much prefer slab reefing with an old fashioned cover.
 

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This will be an interesting thread.

Giu, your boat is fast and light and minimilist and all those other modern concepts. It is also predominantly intended to sail/race not too far from home.

Most cruising boats get realistically close to your definition of an "Old Shoe" and given that many members are cruisers, your definition will have a few people wondering.

I would really wonder how well your beautiful vessel would deal with 45 ft seas and 75 knots winds (at the same time :) ). I wonder whether your family would feel safe.

I know mine do. (44ft, 41ft, 24000lbs, 7000lbs, 44hp, 5ft draft, does an easy 135 miles a day, strong like hell, space to burn).
 

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Those old shoes don't have any trouble mounting a forty pound radar scanner on the mast where it belongs without upsetting the delicate balance of the boat now do they? We of sailnet will watch with interest as the lovely boat Giulietta gains weight and loses some of her zip in preparation for her oceanic adventures ahead. The mere thought of a restless Portagee worried about windage aft from his new mizzen warms the winter beset heart.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I would really wonder how well your beautiful vessel would deal with 45 ft seas and 75 knots winds (at the same time :) ). I wonder whether your family would feel safe.
Not any better or worse than yours would...both sink...

This will be an interesting thread.

Giu, your boat is fast and light and minimilist and all those other modern concepts. It is also predominantly intended to sail/race not too far from home.

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EEEEEEXACTLY....as you say..intended to sail...


Most cruising boats get realistically close to your definition of an "Old Shoe" and given that many members are cruisers, your definition will have a few people wondering.
Not really...


I know mine do. (44ft, 41ft, 24000lbs, 7000lbs, 44hp, 5ft draft, does an easy 135 miles a day, strong like hell, space to burn).
that's moving along at 5 knots.

and you would be amazed if I told you..I bet I have almost the double of the space you have...at 14 feet beam...3 cabins all king size, U sallon and get this...under same conditions...230 Miles a day..all sailing with no engine
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Those old shoes don't have any trouble mounting a forty pound radar scanner on the mast where it belongs without upsetting the delicate balance of the boat now do they? We of sailnet will watch with interest as the lovely boat Giulietta gains weight and loses some of her zip in preparation for her oceanic adventures ahead. The mere thought of a restless Portagee worried about windage aft from his new mizzen warms the winter beset heart.
Sway...really...stick to the Politics and leave the sailing threads alone...you commenting on sailing is like me commenbting on politics...really

Who said it upsets the balance??
 

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Sway...really...stick to the Politics and leave the sailing threads alone...you commenting on sailing is like me commenbting on politics...really

Who said it upsets the balance??
You did. "All that weight aloft."
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I did that post in jest, but there is a hint of truth in it....sometimes I see some of these boats, and I wonder..really...the last thing they do is sail..really...how can they?

Now..in case one wonders what boat I would cruise or sail around the World??

Halber and Najad..nothing else. Because they have the insides of the Old Shoes, with less weight, much better engineering, and are actually sailboats...

No sprits, no nonsense wood decors..true pure ocean crossers...by sail..
 

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Yeah, you did. (g) And it won't be long either before you're complaining about that windage aft from that mast you're installing. CAMARADERIE!!!! Call for you on Line 2!!!
 

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I would love to have an H-R or maybe a Hinkley. Swan perhaps?
But I can't come near the price those command.
Perhaps what alex really wants is for us that cannot afford the latest, most expensive yacht money can buy, to just stay the F off the ocean. Sorry to clutter up your view with my garbage scow. Please let me kiss your @ss too.
 

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So you remove it while sailing, eh?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Xort..sorry...you missed the point...

that is not what I meant...but ok.

and since you bring the cost thing up...for the money some spend on these old shoes..any good sailboat could be bought
 

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Here's my Old Shoe,<table width="95%" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr align="left"></tr><tr><td valign="top" width="33%" align="left">LOA: 27'</td> <td valign="top" width="33%" align="left">Beam: 8'0"</td> <td valign="top" width="33%" align="left">Displacement: 8000 lbs</td> </tr><tr><td valign="top" width="33%" align="left">Draft: 3'10"</td> <td valign="top" width="33%" align="left">Ballast: 3000 lbs</td></tr></tbody></table>sailing into the marina at Ixtapa, Mexico because I ran out of fuel in my big (8HP) diesel.

http://www.youtube.com/v/amgArjp6VKc&hl=en&fs=1<object width="425" height="344">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/amgArjp6VKc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>

She's loaded down with extra gear and sitting heavy in the water.

Miserable sailing little vessel as you can see by the video taken by Ray on our buddy boat Arcturas.

In all seriousness, "Jenny Lee" isn't going to win any races but she's still a handy little boat and I can single hand her without a second thought. She brought my wife and I a long way through some pretty nasty sh!t a few times. Times when our prayer life was at it's strongest. :eek:

Personally, it's not really all about the destination for me. I've actually got to be going pretty darn slow before I tire of sailing and feel a desire to start the engine.

Boats like "Giulietta" fill a need and the old shoes fill another.
It's all about one's objective and personal preference.
 

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Here is my old shoe, 36 ft across the deck, long-keeled, and weighing about 10.5 tonf....

Image of Crinan Canal Summer 2007 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Image of downwind on Loch Ness, July 2008 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

... took me the whole way from Houston to Scotland.

The waves can get very big in the North Atlantic and Old Shoes have their uses.

Not so fast in light airs. Yes, on a summer's day, the light, deep finned, rocket-ships ghost past me, invariably faster, and pointing higher.

But you wait for the big seas.... it is different then.... for me, it's weight and long keel every time.

To each his own. I'll have mine.

Rockter.
 
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