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On the hard
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There's been some debate since Giulietta posted this term but no attempt to define what an Old Shoe is or isn't. Take Oh Joy for instance. She was built in 1961 as a wooden yawl, displaces 14,500 # and has a waterline of around 26'. However, I've seen her maintain speeds of 7.5 upwind and as much as 9 downwind before surfing. She's been clocked at 14 surfing in beam seas. So, is an Old Shoe a full keel boat? I don't think so cause Oh Joy has full keel with a cut away forefoot. Is it the performance range in certain wind ranges? Westsail 32's are notoriously slow but can sail comfortably when other boats are getting thrashed.

Let's nail this down...
 

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To me its the sailing performance i had a Victoria 18 ,first new boat i ever owned and it could not sail out its own way which lead to buying the first J24 as we kept seeing them pass us in pretty moderate conditions when we could not get anywhere on the 18


And there are boats like the Dana 24 moored near me and while i am sure it would be the way to go in a storm it takes a storm to get the boat going :)
 

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Every well-designed boat will meet its designed purpose. Sometimes that involves speed with little priority on comfort or stowage, and sometimes that means an almost-galleon-like ability to stow enough stores and gear to go to Antarctica and back safely, but at a pace some would consider doddering.

Any boat must be evaluated in this light: Does it meet or exceed what the owners desired to do with it? You can't call the 1930s-designed and 1950s cruised Wanderer III or Tzu Hang "old shoes", by this measure, even though they were conservative, relatively slow boats, because they went where no small yachts had cruised before, and despite getting smashed about, neither sank nor killed their crews in very adverse circumstances. They were even on occasion raced for fun.

Some modern production cruisers don't do ANYTHING well, because they are a compromise between being racers vs. cruisers, entertainment centres vs. working sailboats, and condos vs. cruisers. You could call them "new old shoes", I suppose, because they are at their best left in the "shoe box" formed by two dock fingers.
 

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Super Fuzzy Moderator
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Hey, when the Old Shoe thing popped up it was meant to be derogatory but was it in reality a back handed , albeit unintentional , compliment ?

I like old shoes.

Old shoes are comfortable.

Old shoes have character.

Keep 'em well polished and in good condition and an old shoe beats a new shoe hands down.

As for boats, for me they are meant to be holistic. Its not just how fast, its not just how roomy, its not just how big, its not just how much money. Its a combination that makes you feel good about yourself and your boat.

So does your boat make you smile ? Answer yes, then within the definition originally suggested, its not an old shoe.
 

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From reading earlier posts about "old shoes" it seems to me an old shoe is any boat that some other smart-a$$ with a fancy boat thinks isn't as good as his.

If your boat (or the one you want to buy) meets your needs in terms of speed, comfort, safety and operational cost then it's a good boat even when the said smart-a$$ says it's not.
 

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On the hard
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Are you talking to me? Are you talking to ME? Ya must be talk... oh wait, I've seen that movie. Nah, ya ain't talking to me, not about this old girl anyways...



Old shoe she ain't...
 

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baDumbumbum
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Possibly a Portugese idiom, and idioms don't translate well. I took it to mean sailboats designed largely by rule of thumb, lofted with battens, and styled after certain traditional uses and aesthetics. Might be easier to stipulate what isn't "old shoe": computer-designed hull forms with fine entries, no overhangs; wide beam carried all the way aft; crisp chines & flat bottoms for planing; deep, high-aspect keel with bulb; wheel steering, preferably two; bright, low-fuss interiors; more electronics than a video arcade; high-aspect, roachy, full-battened main; sprit or prod for reaching headsail & asym; tech-fabric sails throughout.

A Jeanneau 42 is not an old shoe. Looks more like a blindingly-high-tech basketball or tennis shoe endorsed by billionaire athletes. Which is fine if you play that sport, or if you want to impress other people. I stand on a concrete floor all day, so all I care about is something with solid stitching, hard-wearing leather uppers, good traction, and arch support. If I can find that at KMart prices, all the better.

Old shoes probably look like herring boats: long overhangs, bluff bows, lots of sheer, boxy or bubble coach roofs, low volume, tumblehome and pinched sterns. No carbon, short masts, skeg-hung (or God help us, keel-hung) rudders. Hanked-on headsails, tiller steering, a distinct lack of cup holders. You may have to stoop belowdecks, and you may need to look at shroud telltales or a masthead fly because someone failed to provide you with digital apparent-wind dials.

I'm cool with all that. As others have said: old shoes fit the purpose, and I have better things to do with my money than plonk $200 on a pair of Zoom Kobe IIIs, ya know? They look like they were made by Beneteau.:laugher
 

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An Old Shoe...

Our boat is an old shoe. Shoal draft and beamy...If I could swing it, I'd get an IP or Hans Christian. I like comfort...more than racing.
 

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baDumbumbum
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But G didn't mean it as an insult. I'm guessing the Portugese have complicated relationships with boats, the way Americans do with cars. Consider the '56 Cadillac.



Compared to modern cars, it's objectively a turd. It had a huge engine, but no horsepower. The ride was soft -- but it cornered like a pregnant sow. Braking, acceleration, suspension, lumbar support, safety, climate control, radio ... all inadequate for modern needs. And reliability? You'd probably get 50k out of her before every major system started to fail. A new Lexus is infinitely better in every way.

And yet ... and yet. People lust for the old Caddys. People polish all that chrome and add pinstripes and hang fuzzy dice on the rearview. *shrug* The boats I like are rugged, wet, cramped, and fairly slow. But they make my heart go pitty-pat in a way modern boats do not. Charlie's Oh Joy speaks to me more than a poochy white Beneteau.
 

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Big cars are often called boats. My folks old Town & Country station wagon used to be a big old boat. The body seemed to float above the chassis and it turned and stopped with as much finesse as the Titanic trying to avoid an iceberg.
 

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From reading earlier posts about "old shoes" it seems to me an old shoe is any boat that some other smart-a$$ with a fancy boat thinks isn't as good as his.

If your boat (or the one you want to buy) meets your needs in terms of speed, comfort, safety and operational cost then it's a good boat even when the said smart-a$$ says it's not.
yes...just confirmed by suspicions...you are an idiot...and one with class, courage and poise, too...likes to say things, when people aren't here to defend themselves...true man...
 

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I don't really care that my boat is an old shoe. If I wanted to go fast and shiny, I would have a motorcycle, not a sailboat!
 

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yes...just confirmed by suspicions...you are an idiot...and one with class, courage and poise, too...likes to say things, when people aren't here to defend themselves...true man...
Gui once again you are taking things too personally...

Old shoe has it beginnings in about the mid 1800's boat wise. At that time up until the mid 1930s boats were designed with large everything. It was the smell however that in the 1960's got popularized the saying "old shoe". Nautically that meant that you walked on and the boat had an aura of being well used. Kinda like your favorite slippers or foot wear. But it was also about design.

Stephenson and Sparksman ( tilting a bit back here so mind me) introduced some of the slimmer versions of sail boats we see today. Prior to - everything was about functionality. How much cargo can it hold etc. When you look through history and realize that up to about 1920-30's - sailboats were not a nomenclature common to the rest of of us.

Old shoe refers to classics that have distinct flairs and personailty (determined by smell, shape, etc...). Hard to nail down where the saying was first nailed in - but, when you look at the older wooden boats etc one can se where the overlap of an old shoe and boat design for the masses overlap...
 

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Jody..what the hell are you talking about??

yes..it was me that invented the old shoe name...nothing of it is what that guy from down under, all self important is talking about...it has nothing to do with age..on the contrary...

Old Shoes are the Valiants, the Cabo Rico's the Hans Slowensens...and the new boats they make now that weigh 45 tons, and sail like crap, in exchange of "solid" blue water reputations..filled with useless wood trims, and other features...boats that look like sailboats, with bow sprits and short masts, and sailplans of optimists, with gigantic head sails that go nowhere, whose owners spend more time feeding diesel pumps than sailing!!

And can't sail if the wind is high, and can' sail if there is no wind..

That's an old shoe!!
 

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Jody..what the hell are you talking about??

yes..it was me that invented the old shoe name...nothing of it is what that guy from down under, all self important is talking about...it has nothing to do with age..on the contrary...

Old Shoes are the Valiants, the Cabo Rico's the Hans Slowensens...and the new boats they make now that weigh 45 tons, and sail like crap, in exchange of "solid" blue water reputations..filled with useless wood trims, and other features...boats that look like sailboats, with bow sprits and short masts, and sailplans of optimists, with gigantic head sails that go nowhere, whose owners spend more time feeding diesel pumps than sailing!!

And can't sail if the wind is high, and can' sail if there is no wind..

That's an old shoe!!
Your describing new shoes that hope will be old...one day...
 

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Jody..the truth is very very few ever understood what I mean by old shoe..then you get guys that think they know what I mean and get all defensive and what not, of their boats..and tell everyone they have old shoes and are proud of them..nha nha nha..and Alex is mean..he said my boat's an old shoe,,bad man..bad man...when I never said anything about their boats (I don't even care what boats they have..really don't)
..they did!!!! but get mad at me........I actually enjoy seeing them bite the bones and get all feisty...

you know what? let them have the bone....I am slowly fading away...better things to do...sloooowly dropping the lines....and vanishing in the horizon..in my clorox bottle....other places to visit...other folks to meet....while the bones get chewed.....over here...vanishing...slowly.....

good bye...old friends..good bye......

everything in life has a birth..a life and a death...everything has a cycle...mine's done, end of cycle....just done...we have memories..that's all...

you know where you can find me.....
 
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