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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I think my boat is initially tender, but then seems to take a set around 30 degrees (close hauled to beam reach). I've been trying to sail her at less than 25 degrees heel.

What heel angle do you try to stay within?

At what angle is a knockdown becoming a risk?

At 30-35 degrees there is NOT excessive weather helm.

I guess I am thinking that I should learn to sail her at greater angles of heel, rather than always reducing sail to stay within 25 degrees.

This is an older, IOR-inspired design with moderate beam (10ft) for her length of 31ft. The hull is also rather round so there is not as much form stability as with a newer boat.
 

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Senior Smart Aleck
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Enough heel to achieve hull speed. If you are not sailing at hull speed, you need more sail. Upwind, my boat is at about 20-30 degrees to hit hull speed.

Here is 6.7 knots on a Pearson 28 (24 foot waterline) at about 25 degrees:
 

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bell ringer
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On my current boat if I'm hitting 20 degrees I thinking about reefing, on my last the same was about 30 degrees. That is difference between a 1988 and 2001 boat design!


far as what "optimum" is think I would consider than to be 0 degrees
 

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Chastened
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Different hull shapes want different amounts of heel. Optimum for one guy, isn't optimum for you.

30 seems a little extreme, even for an IOR wagon, but I don't know doodly-squat. All I know, is that my Pearson 30 is "in the groove" at 20 degrees.
 

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this is completely boat design specific, absolutely no way to give a middle ground angle here

a tender alberg boat design doesnt have the same angle as an ior, likweise the ior boat isnt going to have the same angle as a new beamy stern clorox box and likweise that boat isnt going to heel the same as an open 60

horses for courses

I will say this...test your boat, acheive hull speed and any angle or heel after that will be useless or power "wasted" if you will.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT if you have a boat with big overhangs you actually get better as you heel more as water line increases....but then

etc..etc..etc...
 

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Over Hill Sailing Club
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It also depends on sea condition, how wet you want to get, and the undeniable fact that it really FEELS good to have the gunwale in the water:) Kidding aside, I find that getting the right amount of sail up is the first element in the calculation. My Alberg wants to get somewhere near 20 degrees before it gets in the groove but that has to happen with the correct amount of canvas.
 

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The thing is that hull speed changes with heel because most waterlines increase. That being said, some increase more than others, so, as you say, it is boat design specific.

this is completely boat design specific, absolutely no way to give a middle ground angle here

a tender alberg boat design doesnt have the same angle as an ior, likweise the ior boat isnt going to have the same angle as a new beamy stern clorox box and likweise that boat isnt going to heel the same as an open 60

horses for courses

I will say this...test your boat, acheive hull speed and any angle or heel after that will be useless or power "wasted" if you will.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT if you have a boat with big overhangs you actually get better as you heel more as water line increases....but then

etc..etc..etc...
 

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I do not understand the question....
Do you have all some sort of pendulars or electronical devise on board which give you a reading about your heel angle?

Trust your sences and the feel on the helm...
If you feel too much weatherhelm - reduce sail or change trim...
If the wind gets gusty - reduce sail...

30 deg of heel seems pretty excessive to me, just remember:
The more upright the sails, the more efficient.
Knockdowns happen due to squalls, strong gusts or freak waves... ;)
 

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jaja I forgot the old flat is fast saying...its true for a reason

we called saling at high heel angles when kids cowabunga sailing...an absolute blast to dunking the sides in the water, green water on the windows, all over splashing like crazy

fun fun

however its was slow and inffective as hell...
 

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albergs and the like are famous for being initially tender to 10-15 degrees and then love to stay at 20-25 like a freight train..and stay there

thats just one boat design example...

chose your poison
 

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Yes.



I do not understand the question....
Do you have all some sort of pendulars or electronical devise on board which give you a reading about your heel angle?

Trust your sences and the feel on the helm...
If you feel too much weatherhelm - reduce sail or change trim...
If the wind gets gusty - reduce sail...

30 deg of heel seems pretty excessive to me, just remember:
The more upright the sails, the more efficient.
Knockdowns happen due to squalls, strong gusts or freak waves... ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Different hull shapes want different amounts of heel. Optimum for one guy, isn't optimum for you.

30 seems a little extreme, even for an IOR wagon, but I don't know doodly-squat. All I know, is that my Pearson 30 is "in the groove" at 20 degrees.
So we were in "the slot" yesterday, and it was gusting 30 kts apparent. We had a double-reefed main, and the 83% jib up. The heel angle was up to 30 degrees. My instinct was to reduce sail, but the problem is that I hate furling the jib partially, because of the lousy shape that results.

This is a frequent issue I encounter with this masthead rig, which is the huge jib with no easy way to reduce the size of it.
 

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So we were in "the slot" yesterday, and it was gusting 30 kts apparent. We had a double-reefed main, and the 83% jib up. The heel angle was up to 30 degrees. My instinct was to reduce sail, but the problem is that I hate furling the jib partially, because of the lousy shape that results.

This is a frequent issue I encounter with this masthead rig, which is the huge jib with no easy way to reduce the size of it.
When it pipes up, we do better to keep more main and less jib. I always used to do it the way you do, but I have found the opposite to be better.
 

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Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
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I guess that OPs Bristol and my Bristol must have very different hull shapes - certainly we have very different displacements. We seem to be in the groove around 20°. More than that and everything feels like we are just too stressed. When I was young I used to think it was really cool to bury the rail. It felt like we were flying, but we weren't. Now we just do what feels right and gives the best speed.
 

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slightly ior ish with small mains you cut with the jib and power with it too...so your better off getting maximum useable power off the jib in those winds and if needed spill some main...

however 2 reefs in a small ior main means you are pretty much as depowered there without being useless so get the optimum jib for those winds...

having said that its one of the reasons I dislike furlers...especially in high winds I just dont like them...as you get a bag with very little angle and shape not to mention very bad angle to the wind, and its very high up causing more than desired heel for the given winds...

anywhoo
 
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That and a bunch more leeway than one probably realizes.

I guess that OPs Bristol and my Bristol must have very different hull shapes - certainly we have very different displacements. We seem to be in the groove around 20°. More than that and everything feels like we are just too stressed. When I was young I used to think it was really cool to bury the rail. It felt like we were flying, but we weren't. Now we just do what feels right and gives the best speed.
 

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I am not saying that a furled jib produces the best shape, but consider this. A main can handle a much broader range of wind speeds, where as a jib has a narrower range. Having more main and less jib gives me the ability to not be overpowered in the gusts, and I can point higher than if I had more jib and less main. With the track I can shape the jib to a very acceptable, but certainly not perfect shape.

slightly ior ish with small mains you cut with the jib and power with it too...so your better off getting maximum usable power off the jib in those winds and if needed spill some main...

however 2 reefs in a small ior main means you are pretty much as depowered there without being useless so get the optimum jib for those winds...

having said that its one of the reasons I dislike furlers...especially in high winds I just dont like them...as you get a bag with very little angle and shape not to mention very bad angle to the wind, and its very high up causing more than desired heel for the given winds...

anywhoo
 
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