For us it is the cost, the bureaucracy and the weather which the Europeans are escaping by sailing to the Caribbean off the wind in warm weather.

We are sailing the South Pacific rather than the North Sea... again off the wind in warm weather.

 

The good thing about the med is the history, the friendly people and everything is only a short sail (or motor away). I understand that you have problems with the time you can actually stay in one place but the Americans (and Canadians which there seem to be more of) we have met absolutely love it here.

 

Well, how long can I stay in the EU? How long can my boat stay in the EU before I have to pay import tax? How long is the sailing season?


Hmmmm. I think the Caribbean sounds good.

 

Well, how long can I stay in the EU? How long can my boat stay in the EU before I have to pay import tax? How long is the sailing season?

Hmmmm. I think the Caribbean sounds good.

US, canada, mexico and most of central and south american residents are entitled to stay for 90 days without visa in the EU...
Boats are exempt from taxes for non-EU residents for 18 months...

Some Frequently Asked Questions about the rules for private boats - European commission

In the end what you do if one of these days expire, you move out of the EU (which is just a short trip in the med) and reenter some days later to stay for another period...

 

Sailordave sums it up pretty well. If the Europeans are leaving Europe in droves and going to the Caribbean, why shouldn't we?

 

Are we , well the 15 million sailors left have hardly noticed

 

Each year a huge number of Europeans cross to the dark side by sailing the Atlantic to the Caribbean.

We left our home country (UK) three years ago and have been cruising Europe spending our time in new countries and destinations all the time.

We see plenty of nationalities doing the same but very few Americans.

What stops them from coming to Europe?

For huge read less then several hundred

Dave

 

My personal experience is so far limited to the UK and Ireland but is consistent with what I've heard from others who have cruised more widely in Europe....the answers are: high fuel costs, variable weather, winds or lack thereof, VAT on everything (increases the cost of living), and VAT regulations as they apply to boats.

One other thing may be that it's much easier coming west in the trades than it is going east at 45-50N. When US cruisers head east we pay the price before the fun begins. When Europeans come this was this "cost" is deferred and the fun begins almost immediately (once they're a few hundred miles south of the Canaries).

 

There is also a huge difference in hopping down the coast, even through the thorny patch, as opposed to 30 days offshore to cross the atlantic. For that matter, New England direct to the Caribbean is 10ish days and one could layover in Bermuda to split the trip in half.

If one's plan is to bareboat, it's much less expensive to fly to the Caribbean and being in a closer time zone, it's much easier too.

 

I understand a lot of what you say but I also think that a great deal is also in the mind as well. About 230 boats cross on the arc each year, about 200 hundred on the non arc and a few on their own.
Our best friends out here ar Canadians and they love it and have always found a way around the problems.
I think it is far worse and more difficult for us europeans to get the documentation to cruise in the states and in the time we are allowed we cannot get anywhere.
The authorities (of which there are too many departments) all believe we are up to no good.
It is even rare in the summer to see any Americans chartering out here.

 

It has very little to do with cost, VAT or anything other than the Schengen Area. The rules of this agreement make it almost impossible for Americans to stay legally anywhere within the Schengen Area for more than 90 days with 90 days between visits. I've done the Med numerous times, and in my opinion, there's not a lot of cruising pleasure, if one must rush though it in 90 days.
VAT and all other taxes can be deferred and avoided, but there seems to be no legal way to circumvent the Schengen Area, that makes economic or safety sense.
Since the legal recourse of most governments when you violate their immigration laws is to impound your boat and use the proceeds from the sale to deport you, I prefer not to mess around with those laws.

 

I have some friends right now in turkey, marmaris...the crusiing grounds here are heavenly

they summer there then go back to madrid for winter...

while cost is not the only issue there seems to be alot of expensive bureacracy in certain areas...some are prohibitively expensive too

the issue too is the med isnt that small if you think about it and the winds can be extreme or so light its boring so its not like you are there for the best offshore winds and trades its more hopping around than voyaging if you will...

I beleive a good inboard is paramount here

also and this is just nitpicking a lot of cruisers do have issues with med style tying up

I know a few who simply said that the overcrowdedness and complexity of getting to shore in some places made them look elsewhere...

just nitpicking here but there are otther issues not just expense

lastly and this is just my view

there is a bias towards some euro contries and even though the history is great, the food, the wine whatever many cruisers(not only american) chose not to go some places simply by not wanting to...political reasons and others

anywhoo

 

What stops them from coming to Europe?

Work. Family obligations. Other interests. Lack of time (six weeks vacation is not the norm here). Comfortable surroundings. Having nothing to prove. Numerous diversions readily at hand.

Life is pretty good here in the States for those with the time and money to cruise for extended periods (not me, BTW)...

I still wonder on a regular basis why anyone would put up with the long-term discomfort, hardship, and inconvenience of living on a sailboat and crossing oceans.

While I admire the ability of some to cross oceans, I still wonder Why? Why? Why?, especially after reading numerous accounts of people doing it. I have the same question when I read about people scaling Mt. Everest or K2 or even backpacking for months on end or hiking the AP in the U.S. What hole are they trying to fill? What are they compensating for? What is there to prove, and to whom? Whose idea of fun is that?

Racing, daysailing and short cruises on a sailboat are fun. After a week aboard, I am ready for the comfort of home.

Life is good with a balance. Travel is fun. Why pick the slowest, most uncomfortable means to do it?

 

Work. Family obligations. Other interests. Lack of time (six weeks vacation is not the norm here). Comfortable surroundings. Having nothing to prove.

Life is pretty good here in the States for those with the time and money to cruise for extended periods (not me, BTW)...

I still wonder on a regular basis why anyone would put up with the long-term discomfort and inconvenience of living on a sailboat.

While I admire the ability of some to cross oceans, I still wonder Why? Why? Why?, especially after reading numerous accounts of people doing it. I have the same question when I read about people scaling Mt. Everest or K2 or even backpacking for months on end or hiking the AP in the U.S.. What hole are they trying to fill? What are they compensating for? What is there to prove, and to whom?

Racing, daysailing and short cruises on a sailboat are fun. After a week, I am ready for the comfort of home.

Life is good with a balance. Travel is fun. Why pick the slowest, most uncomfortable means to do it?

I think it sums it up pretty well... it is more of a mind thing rather than wanting to sail, explore and challenge yourself. We make speak a similar language but our minds are in a different universe.
As I said why not charter for a holiday.
I once told an American that the world was not flat.....
He replied. It is now cause we bombed it all

 

I have never heard of having to stay away for 90 days once the initial period has expired...
Contrary a good friend of mine from australia had to leave and reenter the EU every now and then before he got his staying permit and nobody made any fuss about it... He was even advised by the officials to do so...

 

We see plenty of nationalities doing the same but very few Americans.
What stops them from coming to Europe?

Two simple answers, among many:

1) Because we can't bring our guns with us? )

2) Because "we're crazy-driven-hard-working-believers...", who would rather own a $75K Cadillac than spend the entire month of August sailing, that's why...

 

2) Because "we're crazy-driven-hard-working-believers...", who would rather own a $75K Cadillac than spend the entire month of August sailing, that's why...

They ran that commercial during the Olympics, a world class event. I was embarrassed.

 

The same reason there are more Europeans circumnavigating than Americans.
In fact I see more Canadians then Americans sailing in the med.

 

That is because they are better liked abroad.

Since I don't have the boat, time nor money to cruise at the moment it is a moot point. But when I do I will probably be looking for the best bang for the buck. In the past I could travel for 3 weeks in Mexico for the cost of a week in Hawaii.

 

The Caribbean.

 

Language differences?

 

I thought the title said cruising the world?

in regards to europe expense is the number 1 reason...after that its vat and length of stays and regulations...altough some lately have done it cheaply in the adratic and parts of greece and turkey

if you read latitude 38 a west coast cruisers mag you can see that some have done it very cheaply 3 months at a time or just for summer cruises...like many parts in europe one island can be excessively expenive and around the corner quite cheap...there is a lot to chose from...

if the world, the reason is very conflicting often political....there are many regions that have become no go places...

some parts of of asia...philipine islands, timor, vietnam(although its the new frontier) cambodia etc...

and then you have basically a big chunk of the red sea because of the issues in sudan, most recently now with pirates from the horn, somalia eritrea whats going on in egypt etc...

most american cruisers out of safety do not like to go to either yemen or even oman as there are issues leaving those places, they seem to be a magnet for pirates

in any case though...there is a big or almost majority of american cruisers in the south pacific, or pacific in general...

when we were cruising the percentages of cruisers from big to small were mostly like this

american
canadian or french canadian
french(mostly solo)
british
aussies or kiwis
german
belgian
dutch(mostly solo)
italian
spanish
russian or eastern european
turks
greeks

there were a few portuguese and brazilian cruisers, and some others but the quantities were like this relatively speaking...I know Im missiing some...sorry.

the spanish have really gone down the list cause if the economy when were were out we had a nice group of about 8 boats that we met at different times and parts of the world.

this was 2000-2010 years.

dont know how much it changed now...Id be interested to know

Like someone else posted too I think the big reason most cruisers dont start off crossing the atlantic(upwind) first is simply its harder to do so this way the first time...

its a great starting point to hop down the coast do the caribean and keep on going...

off the west coast of north america the same applies...people love to hop down get to know their boat be in "familiar" territory and get the guts to do the pacific puddle jump or go out on their own

there are a few that simply stick to the coast from west coast to east coast via the canal...we did...it was great

a lot of varuations and scenarios to this question too I guess

some people like doung routes...like the pacific circle

or the med

or high latitude sailing etc...

 

We considered it years ago when we did a little 'cruising' on our east coast for a year. We love the EU and it was simple logistics that ended the idea.

The time commitment was the biggest hurdle. To really enjoy ourselves would have required a few years and for us to change our lifestyle, which we were enjoying(and still do).

Plus the year living on a boat and moving it was great fun, but not a way of life I prefer. My sailboat and my house-land based life, are different things that I enjoy immensely, but separately. I'd feel lost without both.

These days, we do a lot of sailing and combine it with interesting travel close to home(in comparison to long distance cruisers). We sail a lot which keeps me very happy.

But we never lost the wanderlust to travel. The EU is a favorite for our family and has had a huge effect on us. Our daughter earned her degree in Scotland, and our son is now in Rome at school. We've been lucky enough to travel to the EU several times since we first did some cruising. We can't wait to get back and if fact would like to spend longer blocks of time in the EU.

Our favorite way to travel is very lightly, no schedule, little baggage. That's easy to do in the EU where everything is so close with the train systems and endless places to explore and stay along the way.

I'm also looking forward to the coming sailing season. We have plans to spend more time sailing New England this year. We'll never cover it all.

Your website is fantastic and very unique(as is your family).

If we lived where you do, we'd likely be sailing to many of the same destinations.

 

I think for the North America/Caribbean/Med issue there are a few simple bullets:
1. Schengen
2. Schengen
3. Schengen: This is a huge disincentive. Try getting a Schengen visa in the US. First you have to fly to some major city for the personal interview. Then you have to explain that you don't know when you are going to get there (what? You don't have a flight number? and what day you are going to arrive? - "but we need to know." You don't know which Schengen country you are going to ("no sir, if the winds or weather are adverse I might have to going into a different Schengen country first.") "We can't have that!" "Come back when you know what you are doing." 90 days for all of Europe? The Med is 2,300 miles long. In my boat that is a 23 day 24/7 transit. You must be kidding. Oh, and of course the non-Schengen countries have raised their rates. Why, because they know you are screwed.
and then there is...
1. Short sailing season. In North America/Central America/Caribbean you can sail year round without ever doing more than a 2 day transit. Why spend two months crossing oceans to go to the Med? There are beautiful sailing grounds here. Do I really want to lose half of each year (I'm 67) sitting in some marina due to the weather. I think not. If a European leaves the Med they get 6 extra months of sailing. If an American goes to the Med they lose 6 months of sailing
2. Cost/Benefit - yes Europe is expensive, the US et al can be too. But as noted in "1" above the denominator for Europe is 6 months, here is is 12. 6 months a year in the Med are just a sunk cost. Yes, you can say, use the time to tour. But why waste two months of touring when you can fly across in a day for about what the transit will cost?
3. All of the rest - fear of crossing, time off, concerns about officials, concerns about safety (I would not want to sail near Egypt or Syria or the Ukraine right now. There are bad places on this side of the pond but no where as extensive as in the Med.

Oh, did I mention Schengen?

 

europe is cold.
mediterranean is warm,kinda,
caribbean is warm
west mexico is warm
pacific and atlantic are big...and parts are COLD....
indian ocean has never been stable since i was a kid, so was never on my thoughts....
i will stay in warmville....
besides, yáll have a time limit for visitors...my boat would break down yet again and i would overstay my welcome...yada yada yada......

 

One should take into account ( given the seeming hordes of Europeans sailing west

Firstly sailing boat ownership in Europe is significantly greater the in the US. There's a reason virtually all the major builders are there.

By comparison the US is primarily a power boat country.

Hence even allowing the fact that its difficult to go east. Your not going to see many Americans in Europe. There arnt that many world girdling US cruisers to begin with

Those that mention Schengen or VAT ( which is simply not an issue ) have obviously never been to the Med. The reality is there is little bureaucracy n reality. Stories get hyped around the Internet. The reality is cruisers are out there doing it.

The primary reason there are few US in the med is simply its requires an initial long and comparatively arduous sail. Its a lot easier to cut your teeth making a rub to Bermuda or the Usvi. Etc

Dave

 

Because America is nice enough to stay and cruise and Europe is screwed up enough to want to escape.

 

i dont know if your joking or poking fun but the argument can be said for any country, continent etc...

and there are MANY MANY non friendly places in the us towards cruisers, foreign or domestic

just sayin

 

I was wondering how long it would take before anyone mentioned SCHENGEN.

SCHENGEN, weather, prices...Really, who wants to screw around with a 90-day limit and trying to dodge and plan around that? When they've got to spend two to four weeks each way just to get there? That starts to become way too much transit time for way too little destination time, when the Carib is so much closer to the US, with so much clear water.

Someone must have been terrified at the thought of Hawaiian shirts, Brownie cameras, Coca-Cola and fast food when they thought that one up. And look what happened, their own native people set up the fast-food franchises anyway. Quelle dommage!

Makes almost as much economic sense as the US "war on drugs".

 

Yes, I think the Europeans underestimate the difficulties of Shengen, both real and perceived.

Me, for instance, have sailed in turkey a number of times since 1993 and have little or no interest in going back there as I wish to explore the western med. But doing the western med means difficulties and enforced moves to turkey, or to other north african countries that have all have difficulties, revolutions etc in the last few years. Even Morocco.
Plus theres a simple fact that many Americans just do not want to visit countries where they are hated. Go find a country that loves burning American flags and stay there for 3 months? Not on your nellie!

So folks have to get full visas so they dont rely on the shengen visa... Thats much more paperwork and planning.

You must remember that the caribbean is a blow in, blow out place where every country gives visa on arrival for US citizens, and the next island country is only 20 to 80 miles away. From the BVIs to Trinidad is 450 nms where Nice in the South of France to Marmaris in Turkey is 1,200 miles through some pretty tough waters.

Remember Turkey boarders Syria. OK its a long way away from the cruising areas, but it puts some people off.

Croatia isnt a viable alternative either, especially for wintering, and its joing Shengen next year anyway.

Finally, the Med for a retired couple sailing from the USA is a multiple year cruise so if Europe wants the tourism benefit it needs to change the law for cruisers to become as attractive as the Caribbean.


Mark

 

Ha,ha kind of dumb answer, but have to give it try.
Europeans did discover America not the other way around.
Now that I am here do I really want to go back such a long distance.
Tired overworked?

 

I don't think the Europeans do underestimate the difficulties of Shengen.
We know it is difficult but in Europe there are places you can go.
When we Europeans want to sail in the states and our visas are due to expire where can we go?
We have been living aboard and cruising for the last three years so we meet all other nationalities and there are plenty of others to which Shengen applies, not just Americans.
There are two types of border. One created by politicians so they have there own little bit of power and the border in the mind. As cruisers we wish there were no borders at all.
This post is not a dig at Americans. It is just there are a lot of sailors in America but we have seen very few.
Of the ones we have met everyone of them represents your country well and fly's the flag proudly. We sailed for a month this year with an American family (they had their three young girls with them). We are proud to call them friends.
I just thought we would see more Americans.
I do think the biggest problem is not Shengen but the barriers in the mind.

 

I don't think the Europeans do underestimate the difficulties of Shengen.

When we Europeans want to sail in the states and our visas are due to expire where can we go?

We sailed for a month this year with an American family (they had their three young girls with them). We are proud to call them friends.
I just thought we would see more Americans.
I do think the biggest problem is not Shengen but the barriers in the mind.

We have friends sailing out of the UK now in the Caribbean. They came up the east coast and spent time in Maine(it was their favorite, not bragging,...).

They enjoyed it so much, they plan to return to Maine this summer. And they will cruise into Canada to renew their visas. That's just a few days coastal sailing or an overnight from our harbor.

Iain and Fiona are now 2 years into a cruise which will last at least 3 if they end it this coming fall and return to the UK. That's a good amount of time to see the rim of the Atlantic and explore the Caribbean and include the East Coast of the US to Canada. But even 3 years doesn't allow you to linger often and you can only scratch the surface. In fact, they had to skip huge portions of Europe(ones we would have prioritized if doing the reverse cruise)just to tackle this itinerary.

Most US cruisers are on a year-winter cruise which doesn't allow time for crossing the Atlantic-twice, exploring many countries, and then returning to the US.

I know several US families that have cruised the EU. But it often entailed multi year itinerary that meant leaving the boat there as they returned to the US for spells of time.

Truth is, we see very few long distance cruisers in Maine. Even EU boats in the caribbean rarely get up this far. In fact, few US cruisers even make it up this far.

You need time, lots of time to cruise far in a sailboat.