SailNet Community banner

161 - 180 of 212 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,155 Posts
Tempest really appreciated your sharing that list. Dodge Morgan belies the issue of age to some degree.He’s a local boy so got to meet him. Very self effacing and encouraging to a newbie like me. Still the list is of folks who sole goal was to sail rtw. Not to cruise while crossing oceans. Still does your heart proud to see so many Americans.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,193 Posts
Tempest really appreciated your sharing that list. Still the list is of folks who sole goal was to sail rtw. Not to cruise while crossing oceans. Still does your heart proud to see so many Americans.
https://www.worldcruising.com/world_arc/eventfleetviewer.aspx

Picky Picky..lol

Ok, just for you, OB ;-) here's the Arc "World" " Cruising Club" site. Of the 32 vessels on the team list,
I count 8 of the 32 vessels as US Flagged. or 25 %

I may be absolutely crazy, but I'm beginning to see a pattern here. ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,193 Posts
I don't think you can generate meaningful statistics about the international sailing community from lists.

Here are the participants of the 2016-2017 Vendee Globe Race.

Looks like about 23 of about 35 are French, 2 Americans.

https://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/ranking-and-race-data

That makes sense, it's a French Dominated Race, Started by a Frenchman, begins and ends in France. Sponsored largely by French Companies.

He didn't like the Format of the BOC then Velux 5 So he started his own

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velux_5_Oceans_Race#The_Around_Alone,_1998
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,255 Posts
Its also the premier single handed rtw race and it completely contradicts the statistics generated from the other lists.
So, I think we agree that the origins and creators of lists matter and some may artificially over or under represent certain populations?
 

·
Old soul
Joined
·
4,553 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Seems like a pretty high percentage to me: 26%. Maybe we need to invert the argument and figure out why Americans cross oceans more than others? Must be a cultural thing :grin.

Exactly.

Probably because they have the resources, are independent-minded, and less dependent on their government...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,155 Posts
Please reread post #1. OP specifically appears to want to talk about cruisers crossing oceans. Even in the subset of long term cruisers few go rtw.

I only know about one of very many cruising grounds in the world. Know nothing about high latitude cruising nor the South Pacific nor eastern Mediterranean nor Oceania. My perspective is limited but I do know something about both the leewards and windwards. The harbors are quite well populated. The cruisers and charterers can be distinguished. Charter boats tend to have advertisements or at least the name of the charter company on them. Outside the BVIs the overwhelming majority of boats are cruisers. You commonly see the same boats again and again as you wander around but the overwhelming majority are newly seen. I wonder where people are getting their data concerning the number of long term cruisers. Seems to me if you lump all cruisers together throughout the world the number is in the 5 digit range and wouldn’t be surprised if even in the 6 digit range. Does anyone have access to firm numbers?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Yes, I was referencing that whacky left wing media organization, the CIA. :rolleyes:
Yes, but the wacky part is in your misuse of data.

Are you really trying to say that America is less desirable based on your limited interpretation of immigration data?

If you have a low population, an easy manipulation is to look at immigration on a per capita basis, instead of actual numbers. Also, you'll use the lowest published data, particularly if it is distorted based on the source. I posted a Yale study that shows how the numbers are off.

Rookie mistake, but some people are susceptible based on group affiliation/social identity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,193 Posts
Please reread post #1. OP specifically appears to want to talk about cruisers crossing oceans. Even in the subset of long term cruisers few go rtw.

I only know about one of very many cruising grounds in the world. Know nothing about high latitude cruising nor the South Pacific nor eastern Mediterranean nor Oceania. My perspective is limited but I do know something about both the leewards and windwards. The harbors are quite well populated. The cruisers and charterers can be distinguished. Charter boats tend to have advertisements or at least the name of the charter company on them. Outside the BVIs the overwhelming majority of boats are cruisers. You commonly see the same boats again and again as you wander around but the overwhelming majority are newly seen. I wonder where people are getting their data concerning the number of long term cruisers. Seems to me if you lump all cruisers together throughout the world the number is in the 5 digit range and wouldn’t be surprised if even in the 6 digit range. Does anyone have access to firm numbers?

Well this is from Mike's linked article by Jimmy Cornell, if you can believe that guy ;-)

These are the Vessels arriving at Hiva Oa in the Marquesas in 2015, I believe.
I think, I've pointed out that before that the US is bordered by two oceans. In that light the numbers below make some sense, at least to me. But, as you can see, those damn french are everywhere ! ;-)

"The largest contingent was from USA (143), followed by France (90), UK (66), Australia (43), New Zealand (39), Germany (6), Canada (23), Netherlands (22), Switzerland (15), Belgium (12), Norway (6), Italy (5), and a host if other nations."

Firm numbers of total world cruisers would seem difficult to obtain without considerable research. I suspect Cornell researched the number of permits issued.

Certainly the French, British, Australians, New Zealanders, and the Canadians et al are prolific sailors. The French and British have long rich maritime histories. That said, I think the original premise, that started all this. That, " Americans are not crossing oceans" is unfounded, and really not supported by any of the data that I've uncovered.

Oh, and the OP hasn't been back in over 15 pages, so I think we're on our own. ;-) He's probably Sailing !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,155 Posts
Good on him. That’s what we all should be doing. I’ve swallowed the anchor for a few more months. Miss my baby.
 

·
Old soul
Joined
·
4,553 Posts
Well this is from Mike's linked article by Jimmy Cornell, if you can believe that guy ;-)
Which guy ;)?

Cornell’s guestimate, based on a lot of direct data, some interviews, and extrapolation, seems to be the best dataset I can find to answer the question. From his numbers I’d say American boats are not under-represented out there. But perhaps countries like France and the UK are over-represented. The reasons here are probably historic and cultural (no dig intended OB).

Interesting to read Cornell’s conclusion. His estimate that long distance voyaging seems to have peaked in 2010, with safety concerns due to more erratic weather patterns (climate change), followed by security concerns, topping his list of reasons. Economic challenges brinings up the rear of reasons for the decline.

I’ll quote the first couple of grafs (to avoid copyright problems):

https://cornellsailing.com/2017/08/jimmy-cornell-where-do-all-the-boats-go/

Since my first global survey in 1987, the cruising scene has seen important changes and while this survey has found that in a few places there has been an increase in the number of visiting yachts, the figures from Las Palmas, Bermuda, Panama, Galapagos, Tahiti, Tonga and Australia seem to indicate that the popularity of long distance voyages may have peaked in 2010. Those numbers may also point to a global trend among potential world voyagers.

There are various reasons for this, but they all seem related to safety concerns. Although climate change has only started to visibly affect offshore weather, most sailors are worried about conditions becoming less predictable, with safe seasons no longer being taken for granted. The world is also regarded as less safe on a personal level, not only in such high risk areas as the North Indian Ocean and Red Sea, Venezuela, Brazil, Honduras, North, East and West Africa, but also in parts of the Eastern Mediterranean and Caribbean. The prevailing economic uncertainty may also deter some sailors from setting off on a world voyage not knowing what to expect on their return.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
7,167 Posts
2010 was the last big year. The year I did Gulf of Aden and Suez.

2011 4 Americans doing the same passage were SHOT DEAD by Somali pirates.

That stopped cruising.

2012 throu 2018 there would have been less than 20 boats go up there, total.

Alternative? Cape of Storms.

Or sell the boat in Thailand.

Not ONE person has ever mentioned golbal warming to me. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.


Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,732 Posts
2010 was the last big year. The year I did Gulf of Aden and Suez.

2011 4 Americans doing the same passage were SHOT DEAD by Somali pirates.

That stopped cruising.

2012 throu 2018 there would have been less than 20 boats go up there, total.

Alternative? Cape of Storms.

Or sell the boat in Thailand.

Not ONE person has ever mentioned golbal warming to me. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.


Mark
Amongst the small group of world circumnavigators I know, this issue has stopped a few of them at Australia. Either circle back pacific or sell it and call it a day. At least one couple I know did the pacific loop back thru the canal and done the Atlantic loop.

Not a statistically significant sample, but nevertheless.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
7,167 Posts
I respect Cornell, much like I respect you :kiss. I’m also aware of the extent of his research and data collection when putting together these reports. This is why I take his conclusions seriously, and why I thought it worth highlighting.

It is worth highlighting.
But not tossing out other gleaned opinions.
When a boat does the Pacific they know every other boat of the year.
They come from 2 sources, the Pacific Puddle Jump from west coat USA. Everyone on it knows everyone else. Or the Panama. That means they've met most in the Caribbean before they even get to Panama... Then the 1 marina in Panama Shelter Bay (since the yacht club died).
Then everyone bumps into the few unknowns in Galapagos or the Marquess.
Far before everyone hits Tonga where they have to wait for a month for the season to change, you know everyone or know of them.
Then Thailand where everyone does New Year that year or the next.

You know your year. Very very well.
And the rest of the world you bump into them and talk about where the others are now. You know the marriage breakups, you know the health forced sales, you know who lost the kitty on Bitcoin, you know whose scared of pirates.

You know no one has changed their plans from global warming.

You know the 4 dead effected everyone and everyone from later years.

Sorry to sound like some 'I've been there so I know' jerk, but I've been there and I know :grin
 

·
Old soul
Joined
·
4,553 Posts
So, what do ascribe Cornell’s conclusion to? He didn’t just make it up — at least I don’t believe he did. I quoted what he concluded, and his data is a bit more than just individual anecdote.

… I guess that’s my pet peeve. People see a bit of research that doesn’t agree with their personal observation, so they dismiss it. Individual anecdotal information is not useless, but it’s pretty much the worst kind of data.
 
161 - 180 of 212 Posts
Top