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Bluewater Cruiser Hunter
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Some older boats such as Rafiki's and Alajuela's don't use a traveler? What am I missing here? Seems dangerous and inefficient to me.

...be gentle.
 

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There's no particular danger in setting up a boat without a traveler, you lose a fair bit of control and versatility on sail trim, though much of that can be recouped with a properly engineered and powerful vang set up.

Also, some boats were set up with twin mainsheets in an upside-down "V" arrangement that provided much of the control of an average length traveler and mainsheet without the (pricey) hardware... but again you're giving up convenience and ease of use.

What strikes me as dangerous are cruising boats with no vang fitted at all.
 

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Bluewater Cruiser Hunter
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
sailing w/out traveler

Do you know anyplace I can learn more about this set up? I have searched online but not found anything yet!
Thanks!
 

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One of None
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Rigging small boats by Glen L. it's a free online book. shows the very rig mentioned. I think it's called a crosby rig.



 

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Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
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The Niagara 35 has two independent mainsheets in an inverted V arrangement. I quite like the idea for a cruising boat since you can use one sheet for controlling boom location and the other for shaping the sail. Not as good as a traveller for ultimate control but just fine for cruisers who are not too enamoured of pulling strings.
 

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My little Hunter 18.5 (1991) doesn't have a traveler, just a fiddle block on the cockpit sole that runs up to a fiddle near the end of the boom. It makes for a longer mainsheet than might otherwise be required, but with the cockpit and cabintop the way it is, there's nowhere for a traveler to go. It pretty much makes mainsail trim a binary operation: ease the mainsheet or trim the mainsheet.

I (somewhat) make up for the sail trim deficiencies on downwind legs by running a preventer from the end of the boom to a stout block at the bow, and back to the windward rail on anything below a broad reach.
 

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Bluewater Cruiser Hunter
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks

Yes, the boat is rigged similar to the graphic. On this Rafiki there was not a cam cleat for the main sheet, just a horn cleat on either side of stern. Do you think a cam cleat would be better for the this set up?
 

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The Niagara 35 has two independent mainsheets in an inverted V arrangement. I quite like the idea for a cruising boat since you can use one sheet for controlling boom location and the other for shaping the sail. Not as good as a traveller for ultimate control but just fine for cruisers who are not too enamoured of pulling strings.
Yes, this is what I meant when I posted earlier.. basic graphic below. It's somewhat different from the inverted V sheet arrangement in the picture above, in that it is two separate sheets as described and provided on the Niagara 35 among others.

 

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Broad Reachin'
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What strikes me as dangerous are cruising boats with no vang fitted at all.
Sorry about the hijacking of this thread...but what's dangerous about a cruising boat not having a boom vang? Neither of the cruising boats I've owned have had boom vangs and so far I haven't run into any trouble. Educate me, please! :)
 

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.....Do you think a cam cleat would be better for the this set up?
A cam cleat will be easier/quicker to release and secure... so yes!


Sorry about the hijacking of this thread...but what's dangerous about a cruising boat not having a boom vang? Neither of the cruising boats I've owned have had boom vangs and so far I haven't run into any trouble. Educate me, please! :)
My concern with no vang is when fully eased downwind, an accidental gybe can turn into a goosewing gybe because the boom is free to lift. (half of leech only actually gybes initially) When the sail finally decides which side to end up on that can be a fairly violent action. Also it's simply inefficient having the boom lift going DDW as far as drive is concerned....jmo, of course....
 

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Telstar 28
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The major difference between what Denise030 posted and what Faster posted is that the rig Faster posted allows you to control the position of the boom port-to-starboard, by sheeting the two tackles differently—even to the point of having the boom to windward of centerline. The boom is always going to be to leeward with the setup Denise posted. However, Faster's setup is more work when tacking...since you have to adjust both mainsheet lines.



 

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Broad Reachin'
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My concern with no vang is when fully eased downwind, an accidental gybe can turn into a goosewing gybe because the boom is free to lift. (half of leech only actually gybes initially) When the sail finally decides which side to end up on that can be a fairly violent action. Also it's simply inefficient having the boom lift going DDW as far as drive is concerned....jmo, of course....
Thanks Faster! We typically rig a preventer if we're running downwind for any length of time, so gybes kept in check.
 

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Aside from the jibe, how do you handle the fact that the boom lifts when sailing downwind without a vang? Once past the end of the traveler track, the pull of the mainsheet becomes more inward than downward. Also, in stornger or gusty winds, I find that use of the vang to flatten the sail dramatically reduces heelling and provides far more efficient sailing.
 

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Aside from the jibe, how do you handle the fact that the boom lifts when sailing downwind without a vang? Once past the end of the traveler track, the pull of the mainsheet becomes more inward than downward. Also, in stornger or gusty winds, I find that use of the vang to flatten the sail dramatically reduces heelling and provides far more efficient sailing.
Exactly.... A preventer rigged more or less down to the rail will provide a 'vanging' function (as I suspect Kwalt does for 'longer' runs) but a gybe preventer run to the bow (as is often done) really doesn't help in that regard.

Even on a sailing dinghy like a Sabot, you'll get better efficiency and less dramatic gybes with a fixed strop for a vang to limit boom lift. A few years back in Mexico we took out on of those Hobie beach cats at a resort - no vang. On a quick broad reach I used my foot to force the boom down and picked up speed quite dramatically.

IMO a vang is as important a mainsail control as the rest.
 

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Broad Reachin'
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Y'all are making me put a vang on my offseason wishlist. I'm going to blame you guys if my wife barks about buying more gear!

As Faster said, I rig my preventer down to the perforated toe rail with a snatch block, and then back to my secondary jib winch on the cockpit coaming. Seems to work great for downwind sailing. However, I'm sure reducing twist and flattening the main would improve our sailing overall, or at least give me more trim options to play with!
 

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Two many boats!
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OK now I am confused...my C-30 doesn't have one and the boom is attatched via 2 Big A$$ed Screws so it cannot lift....what about them apples?
 

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One of None
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Well today I realized my 4-1 main sheet is not up to the job. My boat got taken 90* to starboard by a big gust, I started to let everything out. traveler first, But the jib sheet caught and the genny became a balloon instead of luffing, the main sheet was so tight from the wind pressure I couldn't release it! The starboard rail was in the water for a "quick dip" my boat was heading right into the mooring field and about to t-bone a friends Catalina 30. They had just boarded the boat for a late day sail, looked up and and here comes "O doomsday" :eek: Somehow, I popped out the mainsheet out the cam cleat, zing! Out went the boom! My boat righted herself with dignity and just calmly turned her transom to the C-30.. mostly with no real help from me. :rolleyes: WHEW! That, was close! :puke
 

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Senior Member
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It's true that an underpowered mainsheet is a bigger liability when trying to harness the main in a breeze, esp downwind/gybing etc. Upwind it just means you can't trim the main in as much as you might like.

Giving thanks for Adrenaline, eh Denise?


OK now I am confused...my C-30 doesn't have one and the boom is attatched via 2 Big A$$ed Screws so it cannot lift....what about them apples?
Here's for them apples ;) .. what you're describing is the gooseneck attachment, which is rigidly attached to your mast.. (it isn't always, but.....)

The 'boom lift' we're discussing is the way the boom pivots at the gooseneck, allowing the entire boom to swivel up creating an angle less than 90deg with the mast. We're not discussing the attachment point being raised up the mast... Once the mainsheet loses it's downward component, such as slack sheet off the wind this effect can be pronounced.. it risks the goosewing gybe as described above, and reduces 'projected area' that gives us the drag that drives the boat DDW. It also means you're unlikely to have the optimum leech tension at all times.
 

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Why no traveler?
Another point of view.
Some hate mid boom sheeting (like bubba2). Many of today's production boats put the traveler on the coach roof to get it out of the cockpit which places your sheet at mid boom, if you want end boom sheeting and a traveler, chances are the traveler is going to be taking up a lot of room in the cockpit, or it will divide the cockpit in two, or you will be banging your shins on it, ouch. To accomplish boom-end sheeting and to eliminate the traveler in the cockpit, some have opted to place a single lead on the cockpit floor. I know somebody that swears by this for his boat and for his purposes. Of course, like anything else, it is a compromise and has its bonuses as well as its downsides.
 

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Two many boats!
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It's true that an underpowered mainsheet is a bigger liability when trying to harness the main in a breeze, esp downwind/gybing etc. Upwind it just means you can't trim the main in as much as you might like.

Giving thanks for Adrenaline, eh Denise?




Here's for them apples ;) .. what you're describing is the gooseneck attachment, which is rigidly attached to your mast.. (it isn't always, but.....)

The 'boom lift' we're discussing is the way the boom pivots at the gooseneck, allowing the entire boom to swivel up creating an angle less than 90deg with the mast. We're not discussing the attachment point being raised up the mast... Once the mainsheet loses it's downward component, such as slack sheet off the wind this effect can be pronounced.. it risks the goosewing gybe as described above, and reduces 'projected area' that gives us the drag that drives the boat DDW. It also means you're unlikely to have the optimum leech tension at all times.
AH HA! I see I see said the blind man....was just watching a uslesstube vid on the need for a cunningham and now it makes sense...thanks for the info!....now what is a goosewing.... (i'll google it)

Josh
 
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