[Skipper Jer]

I'm a bit confused as to which bolt material to use to mount the winches. Since the bolts will be bedded in a sealant (4200, 5200, sikaflex) I'm under the impression that stainless steel should not be used in that environment. Yet Harken in a pdf, http://www.harken.com/uploadedfiles/Product_Support/PDF/MRW-01_46-2st.pdf
"To install the winch on the deck, use only bolts in A4 stainless steel (DIN 267 part11)" specifies stainless steel.

I am considering using silicon bronze bolts to mount them. Is this an overkill? Would stainless steel (316) be strong enough?

 

[Faster]

SS will be fine.. your sealant will keep it all dry and crevice corrosion should not be an issue.

BUT... please don't use 4200 or 5200. Use a good non-adhesive sealant in case you need to remove it one day.

 

[the_abuse]

use butyl tape you cant go wrong with that stuff for bedding anything and like Faster said dont use 5200 its way to brittle and will crack and leak. SS bolts will be fine

 

[knuterikt]

I'm a bit confused as to which bolt material to use to mount the winches. Since the bolts will be bedded in a sealant (4200, 5200, sikaflex) I'm under the impression that stainless steel should not be used in that environment. Yet Harken in a pdf, http://www.harken.com/uploadedfiles/Product_Support/PDF/MRW-01_46-2st.pdf
"To install the winch on the deck, use only bolts in A4 stainless steel (DIN 267 part11)" specifies stainless steel.

I am considering using silicon bronze bolts to mount them. Is this an overkill? Would stainless steel (316) be strong enough?

Stainless steel is good enough.
You need to add stagnant sea water to get crevice corrosion, this is normally only a problem below the waterline.

 

[Skipper Jer]

I've agonized over this for three days, many google searches and finally went to the board of knowledge and in less than 10 minutes I have answers and advice on sealant. It doesn't get any better than this. Thank you.

 

[the_abuse]

You can get butyl tape from any Window place place or Google bed-it butyl

 

[JonEisberg]

If you want to do it right, take the trouble to align the base of the winch properly for the expected heaviest loads it will see... That is roughly 5-10 degrees beyond the point where the line comes onto the drum...

You want to have the point where the gear engages the drum to be situated at that spot... On the starboard side, assuming a headsail lead coming directly from forward, that point will be on the outboard side of the winch, roughly 95-100 degrees aft of the direction of the lead... On winches on the port side of the cockpit, the same angle applies, but to the inboard side of the winch... If the leads are being led thru a turning or footblock aft of the winch, then they should be re-aligned almost 180 degrees, and the gear would then be situated on the inboard side forward on the starboard winch, and the outboard side on the port winch... And on winches that might see double duty from both a headsail, or a spinnaker sheeted thru a footblock on the stern quarter, the winch should be oriented to the heaviest expected load, which in most cases will be for the headsail...

It would be interesting to do a survey of production boats, and see what percentage of builders have taken the trouble to orient their winches in this fashion... A rigger friend of mine guesses probably 80% of the winches he sees on production boats are mounted with no regard whatsoever to this practice, just seems to be a matter of luck whenever they might happen to get it right...

Oh, and buy your butyl tape from Maine Sail @ Compass Marine... His stuff is great, and it's the least any of us who benefit from his presence here can do...

)

 

[the_abuse]

You should also get an 1/8'' aluminum backing plate to support the fiberglass so bolts don't oblong holes or cracks the fuberglass

 

[Skipper Jer]

WOW, I'm grateful for all the thoughtful responses. I am aware of the "tilt" of the winch relative to the sheets to insure the line doesn't over ride on the drum. The pads were machined at an angle to get the winch to tilt. Also knew about the internal drive gear location relative to the sheet entry but was fuzzy about the exact location but Jon has cleared that up. And yes I am including a backing plate, maybe a tad thicker than 1/8 ".
And I already bought the butyl tape from Maine Sail and used it on some deck fittings. The stuff works.

Couple more questions. The area under the cap rail where the winch mounts is really not too flat. I was planning on using thicken epoxy between the blacking plate and the fiberglass to insure maximum contact surface area. How do I keep the screw holes in the winch base, mounting pad, cap rail and backing plate all aligned while the epoxy kicks off? Maybe wooden dowels or mounting bolts coated in wax in the holes?
Also how do I keep all that epoxy on the mounting plate from running off? I was thinking of making a wall using painters tape around the perimeter of the mounting plate.

 

[paul323]

You can get butyl tape from any Window place place or Google bed-it butyl

I'd recommend you get it from Faster. I googled it (a few years back) and got some butyl tape from a caravan shop. It does work, but the viscosity is too low, and in summer it softened - in vertical surfaces, slowly dripped out of the porthole/thru-hull; so I had to rebed everything using the stuff Faster sent.

Do the smart thing - buy from Faster because
- His site is awesome
- You are supporting a fellow sailor
- He is very responsive
- He did the research, so we don't have to
- He knows his stuff

(usual disclaimers - never met the chap blah blah but appreciate his advice)

 

[overbored]

mounting over old holes that do not line up exactly you need to fill the old holes first. The Harkens only requires sealer around the bolts not the entire base as there are drainage channels that you do not seal. A backing plate of G-10 material is the best and can be bonded in place and will not corrode.

 

[Faster]

I'd recommend you get it from Faster. I googled it (a few years back) and got some butyl tape from a caravan shop. It does work, but the viscosity is too low, and in summer it softened - in vertical surfaces, slowly dripped out of the porthole/thru-hull; so I had to rebed everything using the stuff Faster sent.

Do the smart thing - buy from Faster because
- His site is awesome
- You are supporting a fellow sailor
- He is very responsive
- He did the research, so we don't have to
- He knows his stuff

(usual disclaimers - never met the chap blah blah but appreciate his advice)

All true! .. but only if you're talking about Maine Sail, not me..

 

[Skipper Jer]

I did buy the tape from Compass Marine. The winches are Barient and there are no old holes in the cap rail. Looking on Ebay for the G10 now.

 

[Stumble]

Couple more questions. The area under the cap rail where the winch mounts is really not too flat. I was planning on using thicken epoxy between the blacking plate and the fiberglass to insure maximum contact surface area. How do I keep the screw holes in the winch base, mounting pad, cap rail and backing plate all aligned while the epoxy kicks off? Maybe wooden dowels or mounting bolts coated in wax in the holes?
Also how do I keep all that epoxy on the mounting plate from running off? I was thinking of making a wall using painters tape around the perimeter of the mounting plate.

There are two ways to do this... The hard way (which you have generally outlined) is to drill the holes first, then try and pour epoxy without filling the holes, or shifting any of them... I have tried this, and absent making a jig to hold everything in place while the epoxy sets it never really works well.

The easy way is to not drill the holes, do the epoxy pour, then drill the holes. Everything lines up nice and easy, and there is no issue with one of the dowels falling over after you bump it with the epoxy bucket.

I would also point out that normally this type of spacer is made from either G10 or wood. Unless it is relatively thin pouring epoxy isn't really advised.

 

[the_abuse]

If you spray release film or use release wax on some stainless scews first then bolt them to the backing plate when it goes to dry the screws will unscrew and not be stuck. Make sure you add milled fiber or chopped fiber to the epoxy mix that your gonna glue the backing plate with and sand the bonding surface of the hull to remove any wax from the drying process of polyester resin makes for better bonding

 

[Skipper Jer]

There are two ways to do this... The hard way (which you have generally outlined) is to drill the holes first, then try and pour epoxy without filling the holes, or shifting any of them... I have tried this, and absent making a jig to hold everything in place while the epoxy sets it never really works well.

The easy way is to not drill the holes, do the epoxy pour, then drill the holes. Everything lines up nice and easy, and there is no issue with one of the dowels falling over after you bump it with the epoxy bucket.

I would also point out that normally this type of spacer is made from either G10 or wood. Unless it is relatively thin pouring epoxy isn't really advised.

I understand the alignment issue and not drilling the holes until all are mounted does make sense. Maybe I drill a hole through the cap rail and hull deck joint at the center of winch mounting place. I can use this hole to center the backing plate and to pour epoxy to fill any gaps between the backing plate and hull deck joint. I'd use duct tape to hold the backing plate in place.
Sound reasonable?

 

[Faster]

If your winches are on angled pads, then your backing plates should be reciprocally angled below decks to give the fasteners two parallel surfaces to tighten against....

 

[paul323]

All true! .. but only if you're talking about Maine Sail, not me..

Damn too right - faster you're a cool dude, but it is MAINESAIL who has the site and the butyl tape! That'll teach me to post before the first coffee!!!

SORRY!!

 

[Faster]

Damn too right - faster you're a cool dude, but it is MAINESAIL who has the site and the butyl tape! That'll teach me to post before the first coffee!!!

SORRY!!

No worries... though for a few seconds you had me feelin' pretty good!