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Old soul
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I think there is more to it than you list. Some people enjoy their jobs/vocation and wouldn't do anything else. Scientists and musicians, for example, probably see what they do as an integral component of themselves with no other considerations. I know that I was internally destined from almost birth to be a scientist, and becoming one had nothing to do with obtaining a job, contributing to humanity, supplying myself with necessities, or any of the things you list. Similarly, musicians may do it for sex, drugs, and rock and roll (or sex, drugs, and Bach), but they are internally destined to pursue it without other considerations, and would unlikely do anything else.

Entrepreneurs, inventors, poets, novelists, explorers - there are many examples of internally-driven "jobs" not defined so narrowly, and likely not replaceable outside of far future developments.

Mark
Agreed. A "job" fulfills these roles as well. The change we are heading towards will not diminish this. We all have to do something; to create meaning in life. None of that will change. The difference will be that what you do to create a fulfilling life will no longer be intertwined with the function of accessing the resources we all need to live.

Think "retirement". Most people retire from a job. But most of us continue to lead fulfilling, engaging lives. Getting paid to do a task is not necessary to living a fruitful life.
 

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Master Mariner
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Discussion Starter #62
Perhaps there is a silver lining for some after this pandemic resolves itself.
For all those who have lost the jobs that they hated, maybe, just maybe, after this life changing experience, they will seek a job they like. Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing to come out of all this misery?
 
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I see a hierarchy
Job - usually manual work
Career - paid professional
Vocation - something either not paid or you would pay to do - usually helping people or artsy

One thing all have in common is that they provide a sense of self esteem, that you are contributing to the tribe, a useful community member.

Just giving folks money to live, the economics aside, does nothing to give folks that sense of community. A job and a career help people being organized about being part of the tribe. Most of us are not good at doing that ourselves, we need help.

So it’s not as simple as just giving our dough.
 

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I think there is more to it than you list. Some people enjoy their jobs/vocation and wouldn't do anything else. Scientists and musicians, for example, probably see what they do as an integral component of themselves with no other considerations. I know that I was internally destined from almost birth to be a scientist, and becoming one had nothing to do with obtaining a job, contributing to humanity, supplying myself with necessities, or any of the things you list. Similarly, musicians may do it for sex, drugs, and rock and roll (or sex, drugs, and Bach), but they are internally destined to pursue it without other considerations, and would unlikely do anything else.

Entrepreneurs, inventors, poets, novelists, explorers - there are many examples of internally-driven "jobs" not defined so narrowly, and likely not replaceable outside of far future developments.

Mark
Humans have to do something to fill their waking hours. Many (most) have worked... a job if you will, whether it's something they love or something they do to make the rent or buy a new guitar or boat. We also engage in leisure activities when we have the time, money and skill.... we can do sports, arts, nature stuff, crafts whatever.

Some people are fortunate enough to make a living at something they like or even love.... I would say this would be the case for artists, musicians, dancers, even athletes and other "entertainers". What seems out of whack to me is how these jobs are compensated. For sure the best at anything makes big bucks (relative of course).

We have a pyramid order... at the top are few and they get all the money etc. They may be the best. But should someone who hits home runs be paid thousands of time more than a teacher? Or a nurse?

Then you have the slackers in the financial sector... who make money by buying and selling paper... or the people who make commissions or fees.. sometimes huge for very little of their time. Take real estate sales.

Years ago as a young architect I worked very hard and long to design a very nice beach house for a young couple. I think my fee might have been no more than $15-20K. I think the house cost $300K to build. (actual number don't matter in this example. So the couple got relocated to CA and put their house on the market... it was listed at something like $800K. The real estate fee was say 6% so the broker made about $50K.... and for what? Showing a house I designed no more than a handful of times and putting a listing in the paper... answer some phone calls. Real Estate profession is a rip off!

And there are people who make "deals" sell or license their brand or name. All these are BS ways to make lots of money and essentially add nothing of value to the world.

I think it time that we take a look at where "the market" has taken the world... and the inequality and suffering it has caused to make a few live cushy lives.
 

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Hunter 386
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I see a hierarchy
Job - usually manual work
Career - paid professional
Vocation - something either not paid or you would pay to do - usually helping people or artsy

One thing all have in common is that they provide a sense of self esteem, that you are contributing to the tribe, a useful community member.
It would be interesting to compare work/life histories. While I have been able to always work at something I loved and found rewarding that is not true for most of my cohort. I think self-esteem is the last thing that many of the people I have grown up around feel they have gained, if they have gained anything at all.

I'm on the fence about a new economy. Too much "free" money and too little social education probably would lead to disaster. On the other hand it can't keep going the way it is going because we in the "western world" are creating a class of very unhappy people.
 

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Sander,
Worse than that, look at Social Workers. I met a gal who retrained from Social Worker to Liberian so she could make more money.

Some people feel really driven to help other people. Also there are a lot of them. Son they drive the market down.

I worked jobs I hated. Damn few liked those jobs. They were hard, technical, and you had to kiss substantial ass. That was really hard for me. People didn’t want to do them. And in later years I was taking on these really weird jobs so one else would attempt. These were actually kind of interesting, but I could get zero support, no one would do the stuff I did. But because they were hard they paid well. I was working part time, with full time benefits. But the work sucked.

Sure there are some who get Cush jobs. OTOH there are the poor slobs who ends up on the back of a garbage truck or a roofer. They have crap jobs that don’t pay well. We here don’t talk much about those folks, I suspect because most of us don’t belong to that class. But it’s the class I came from, so I’m always looking back and feeling gratitude that I didn’t get stuck there.
 

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Some of these ideas of economic equality are not new and had been attempted by Lenin in Russia in 1917. He was also frustrated that the top few were getting all the money. As someone born and raised in the Soviet Union I can assure you the result was horrible.
 

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Old soul
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4,498 Posts
I see a hierarchy
Job - usually manual work
Career - paid professional
Vocation - something either not paid or you would pay to do - usually helping people or artsy

One thing all have in common is that they provide a sense of self esteem, that you are contributing to the tribe, a useful community member.

Just giving folks money to live, the economics aside, does nothing to give folks that sense of community. A job and a career help people being organized about being part of the tribe. Most of us are not good at doing that ourselves, we need help.

So it’s not as simple as just giving our dough.
I know... we're so wrapped up in the current capitalist mythology that it's hard to even conceive of a different way. One can be a contributing member of a community without it being tied to money. Just ask any retired person.

Regardless, we're going to have to come to terms with this reality as more and more "jobs" shift to automated and AI control.
 

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I think the nanny states like Norway and Sweden are more advanced that the USA approach... They also poll as the happiest people.
 

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I know... we're so wrapped up in the current capitalist mythology that it's hard to even conceive of a different way. One can be a contributing member of a community without it being tied to money. Just ask any retired person.

Regardless, we're going to have to come to terms with this reality as more and more "jobs" shift to automated and AI control.
We have been coming to grips, well maybe actively avoiding, for a long time. When I look around I see a lot of useless jobs. TSA just to wack my favorite kicking boy. They are a way of giving people a job, and some dignity, that otherwise would be welfare. So I see a lot of “welfare with dignity” jobs. Prisons can be viewed in this light as well. If we didn’t have excess population then we could not afford so many locked up. The just like looking at things cross eyed. (I said cross eyed because it did this when I said **** eyed)

AI is interesting when viewed through a growth lens. I believe that BOTH parties in the USA want lots of illegal immigration. Gives them a kind of slave class they can kick out if needed. The come into the USA, become consumers, contribute to the economy, keep it growing, but can be ejected at will. I also feel very strongly we need to work on degrowth.

If you have AI it might be possible to decouple economic growth from population growth allowing us to get our population under control.

If I’m right you will see a great push to AI in Japan, which is suffering a stalled economy in part because of an aging and declining population. AI is the cure for that sickness. Maybe.
 

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Master Mariner
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Discussion Starter #71

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S/V Interlude, PSC31
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The other man's grass is always greener.

With a nod to Wikipedia:
The Nordic model comprises the economic and social policies as well as typical cultural practices common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden). This includes a comprehensive welfare state and multi-level collective bargaining based on the economic foundations of free market capitalism, with a high percentage of the workforce unionised and a large percentage of the population employed by the public sector (roughly 30% of the work force). The Nordic model began to gain attention after World War II.

The three Scandinavian countries are, nominally, monarchies, while Finland and Iceland have been republics since the 20th century. Currently, the Nordic countries are described as being highly democratic and all have a unicameral form of governance and use proportional representation in their electoral systems. Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all have some common traits. These include support for a universalist welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labour and employers negotiate wages and labour market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to private ownership (with some caveats) within a market-based mixed economy.

The distinctive defining characteristic of the Nordic model is a neo-corporatist collective bargaining system. Due to the disappearance of the structural foundations provided by post-war capitalism and globalization, the traditional Nordic model has been in decline. Since the 1980s, the influence of organized labor has decreased, collective bargaining schemes rolled back, along with reductions in social spending, deregulation, and an expansion of privatization of public services. Basically the same thing has been happening here. Difficult to compare smaller homogeneous countries to one like U.S. but regardless it is not the utopia you may imagine.

Stay safe out there.
 

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Old soul
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We have been coming to grips, well maybe actively avoiding, for a long time. When I look around I see a lot of useless jobs. TSA just to wack my favorite kicking boy. They are a way of giving people a job, and some dignity, that otherwise would be welfare. So I see a lot of “welfare with dignity” jobs. Prisons can be viewed in this light as well. If we didn’t have excess population then we could not afford so many locked up. The just like looking at things cross eyed. (I said cross eyed because it did this when I said **** eyed)
I think you're right; we are sputtering our way towards this new reality. My assessment is that this will accelerate rapidly over the next decade or so, making essentially everyone obsolete.

I don't want to get on a rant about airport security. Suffice it to say I'm no fan of this security theatre we're all subjected to. And I also think it's a good example of the authoritarian outcomes which I am increasingly concerned about in this time of whoa.

Of courses, all this brings to mind the Parable of Golgafrincham:

These tales of impending doom allowed the Golgafrinchans to rid themselves of an entire useless third of their population. The story was that they would build three Ark ships. Into the A ship would go all the leaders, scientists and other high achievers. The C ship would contain all the people who made things and did things, and the B Ark would hold everyone else, such as hairdressers and telephone sanitisers. They sent the B ship off first, but of course, the other two-thirds of the population stayed on the planet and lived full, rich and happy lives until they were all wiped out by a virulent disease contracted from a dirty telephone.
 

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Off topic:

We know a fellow who works at a major US airport in TSA security. Bombs are in fact intercepted on a regular basis, they just don’t make the news for obvious reasons. I’m OK with having increased airport security.
 

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That want a bomb. That was my laptop!

Mike,

We need to stock up on beer for summer discussions.
 

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Off topic:

We know a fellow who works at a major US airport in TSA security. Bombs are in fact intercepted on a regular basis, they just don’t make the news for obvious reasons. I’m OK with having increased airport security.
Statement with no evidence... this is irresponsible. Hearsay rubbish.
 

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Flying commercial is so unpleasant for a number of reasons... I wouldn't do it unless I have no other choice. I would avoid US carriers if I go overseas.

Planes are great for going long distances in short time spans.

I think we should develop and use more rail.

Airlines need to be nationalized as no one could run them worse than they already are.
 

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Master Mariner
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Discussion Starter #80
hpeer;2051663684 Prisons can be viewed in this light as well. If we didn’t have excess population then we could not afford so many locked up. \.[/QUOTE said:
I think you've got it wrong on prisons. With the privatization of prisons the whole footing of our justice system has become big business, and all about money, not justice. Who do you think own the private prisons? Our legislators, just like they owned the drug testing labs when that system was instituted and, I imagine, the TSA schools and uniform/equipment suppliers.
That a bunch of schlubs get employment out of it is just a by-product of the wealthy getting wealthier.
 
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