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Discussion Starter #1
Hi everyone!

As mentioned in the "introduce yourself forum" I just wanted to lead in with an intro here -in case it was missed...

After the past year of reading at least half of these wisdom rich forums (I feel like I know everyone like neighbors now), researching for our first sailboat, my wife and I have finally decided on and purchased an ’86 Catalina 22! In fact we drove halfway across the country to do so. It was a long Memorial Day weekend that my wife and I will now forever memorialize for a whole new additional reason!

Now that we have our sailboat and a place to sail it, here in Colorado, I have practical questions I would appreciate direct advice and thoughts on. The first official question in these forums for me is related to the wonderful adventure of getting a bottom-job. I am not too sure what I will find when the Anti-foul is removed, but I suspect it will likely require a new barrier coat before a new application of anti-foul.

Given that the boat will be residing in a cold mountain lake during the summer season through mid- October (about 5 months), then trailered and covered the rest of the months. My first question is with the anti-foul; as I know I will need to do this regardless of the boat’s condition. So after looking extensively through the forums my unanswered questions on the bottom subject are as follows:

What is the appropriate anti-fouling for a “not the fastest” sailboat on a fairly cold mountain lake? I won’t be racing competitively as we are focused on learning the very basics for now. I would love something that I don’t have to redo every season. I read here that Micron CSC and Extra ablates at 6-7 knots. From my understanding of “ablate” this means that the paint likely won’t lose the hangers-on and algae unless I get really good winds for long stretches… Not sure how likely that is. VC-17 I have understood to be over the top for my needs if done correctly (using a “tar coat” first, etc). I was also told VC-17 was more for racers and did not last more than a season usually. Additionally, I have found Trinidad, but haven’t really understood much about the details relative to my situation. Does anyone have a recommendation of what would be a good anti-foul for my circumstances? Not fast, cold lake, half-year season in water and lasts a few (hopefully 3-4 seasons).

If it turns out I need a new barrier coat (God knows what’s going on beneath the very flaky and thick anti-foul), what recommendations could you volley my way on the subject? What are objective signs that indicate a new barrier coat is truly necessary? Blisters will be obvious, but are there other more subtle factors my newbie eyes might not recognize? Or worse, signs that a bottom shop would use to scare me into believing a barrier job is a must? I would prefer to be educated before I stop by for that initial estimate so I can make a solid decision.

If a barrier coat is needed what is recommended? Both for a “serious” job and/or something on the lighter side –a basic “play it safe” coating? –Hopefully this isn’t read as too loose a question…

We won’t be able to do this hull work ourselves unfortunately –every other project we have high hopes for doing DIY... Does anyone recommend a good bottom / fiberglass shop in Colorado (near Denver, Dillon or maybe even Granby)? I know The Anchorage in Lyons doesn’t do this kind of work. Any other suggestions? Or places to avoid?

Finally, thanks for reading all of this as I am trying to be thorough. I want to give everyone a HUGE “thank you” for existing and being such a supportive and sharing bunch –certainly a good influence helping to further attract us to the sailing world. Every piece of advise and every story has helped to guide us on what we expect will be one of the greatest decisions we’ve made in many, many years! While we have been quiet during our research and class taking, we hope to be able to share for whoever is interested in what we learn in the future. Giving back of what we can, though the perspective is clearly one from the beginning.

Thanks tons all!
 

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Telstar 28
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For bottom paints, you will want a MULTI-SEASON ablative paint. Getting almost anything else will be a waste of money, since the paint will deactivate with prolonged air exposure, like when you haul the boat for the winter.

For barrier coating the hull, I would highly recommend Interprotect 2000E. It probably isn't necessary on a trailerable boat that is sailed on cold fresh water lakes of colorado and stored for half the year.

As for not doing the work yourself, I don't see why you wouldn't? If you get the bottom soda-blasted, it is only a couple of days to finish sanding, barrier coating and painting the bottom of a boat the size of yours.
 

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Hinterhoeller HR28
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SD is precisely on the mark.

In cold Lake Ontario, with a 6-month season, many older boats don't have a barrier coat at all. Hand-laid hulls from the 60's don't seem to be as susceptible to blistering as those from the 70's and 80's. The colder the water, the fresher the water, the shorter the season, the less the blister risk. If you DO strip everything off, a barrier coat makes sense, as most of the job -- the labor -- is already done. Interlux 2000E is a great material for the barrier.

A good multi-season ablative, such as Micron Extra, is what we use here in Buffalo. Trinidad is a Hard paint, which requires sanding for re-coating, whereas ablatives can get by with just a good scotch-brite scuffing before touch-ups. We also have customers who swear by the [much cheaper] Blue Water ablative paints, even after a few seasons, though I believe BW only claims one season. VC is definitely a single-season job, slippery -- almost all our racers use it, BUT, as it contains Teflon, if you want to change to a different paint in the future, you must completely remove the VC-17.
 

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Ablatives

Ablatives are great but there are big differences. Micron CSC and Micron Extra do not begin ablading until 7-8 knots and are not necessarily the best choice if trying to avoid build up on a slower moving sailboat. Micron 66 should NEVER be used in fresh or even brackish water and is a salt water paint only.

They are great paints for power boats, and sailboats that hit 7+ often but not for boats that rarely consistently cruise above 7 knots. Interlux ACT begins ablading at 2-3 knots and would be a better choice. Though it is marketed as a single season paint by Interlux this is solely because it wears away so fast and not because it will become ineffective if hauled.

The Pettit line Hydrocoat, Horizons and the Ultima paints all begin ablading at about 3 knots and IMHO are a much better choice if you want true ablading properties on a slower moving boat.

As for barrier I highly doubt it will benecessary unless you remove too much gelocat in the removal process..
 

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Hello,

As others have mentioned, I don't think you need a barrier coat. Regarding paint, I used Pettit Hydrocoat last year. I worked OK on my boat, which is in salt water from May to November, and the water gets quite warm in Aug / Sept. It was cheap to buy and very easy to apply.

Good luck with the Catalina 22. That was my first boat and I learned a lot and enjoyed sailing it.

Barry
 

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moderate?
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Hard bottom paint will be longer lasting than ablative for you since you will store out of the water for many months.
Slime and algae are the biggest lake water issues so get something with a good biocide...not just copper.
 

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You probably don't want the Micron paint. Pettit has several choices for you. If you want ablative then Pettit is a good choice because, as MaineSail said, they work at much lower speeds.

Pettit Paints

You might want to consider hard paints though.

Do you know what kind of paint is on it now? You probably want to get into the water, so maybe the thing to do is find out what is on it now, figure out what you can over coat it with after a light sanding and just put it on for this season. Both Pettit and Interyacht web sites have compatibility charts.

Then you have plenty of time to decide if you want it soda blasted, if you want the barrier coat, what paint for the long term...
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Ablative VS Hard

Perhaps someone could give a good explanation on the difference between ablative and hard paint?

I take ablative to mean that the slime and creatures can’t get a solid foot-hold and as the boat moves through the water the molecules of the paint the creatures/slime have hold of simply “peal” away, thus releasing the creatures/slime. The hard coat simply has properties such as copper and biocide that essentially repels the creatures and slime without a need for moving through water to activate. The creatures and slime simply aren’t interested in touching the paint.

Is this correct?
Thanks! -BB
 

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Perhaps someone could give a good explanation on the difference between ablative and hard paint?
For the purposes of this discussion let define "hard" paints. You likely mean modified epoxy paint, which is the most common non-ablative type available.

Both ablatives and modified epoxies use cuprous oxide as the main toxin. Some products also use additional ingredients to retard slime build-up, but copper is the main toxin in both types. Both types are formulated to release the copper at a controlled rate and do so, 24/7 until the copper is depleted. The major difference is that ablatives are designed to be "self-cleaning"; that is, as the boat moves through the water, the soft outer surface of the paint ablates away, always revealing a clean, fresh paint surface to the water. This is the theory anyway. In regions of moderate to high fouling, ablatives do not self-clean. Modified epoxies are a tougher, more durable paint, that work solely by leaching the copper toxin into the water around the boat.

A newer type of anti fouling category is the "foul release" type. Foul release anti foulings tend to be non-toxic and work by providing a surface that is so slippery that organisms cannot readily attach to the hull.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks Fstbttms,

That's the most concise explantation I could hope for! Lots of good advice here in this thread. So called hard paints don't sound to last multiple seasons of haul out, and sound to be painful to remove when time comes to re-apply. Based on what I've read it sounds as if Pettit line Hydrocoat, Horizons and the Ultima paints are the likely best candidate for my situation. Low speed ablatement, likely lasting multiple seasons, easy to re-apply if necessary, and (I think it sounds as if) it can be hauled out in the winter on a trailer without ruining it's effects. I'll spend some time looking into the different versions and see what I can learn.

My favorite suggestion to just sand and put a complimentary coat on and go sailing is great 'cept that the bottom paint is literally just flaking off, which makes me concerned that the fiberglass may have some issues. I'd rather know than make it worse through the season. The gentleman I purchased from didn't come across as a big sailer; he didn't seem concerned that lowering the swing keel was helpful in the sailing part... Nice guy who ultimately just wanted a speed boat. Looking it over during purchase, it looked like the very bare minimum had been kept up on. Fortunately, he had only owned as a floating beer hut for two years, so it could be quite a bit worse.

The lake he kept it on was in Western Ohio, which I take to not be the coldest, nor cleanest of lakes, so I am keeping myself prepared for the worst when I have a chance to scrape some of the paint off tomorrow for the first time. Can't wait to see what I find! Fingers are crossed.

Again, any further opinions are greatly appreciated! Thanks to all for taking the time! -BB
 

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VC-17 is a one season paint - it wears away and needs to be refreshed every spring BUT one big benefit of this is that it is easy to prevent buildup. The harder paints that I have used seem to lose their potency as the years go by, and after a few applications the bottom needs to be taken down to glass (or barrier coat) again. This takes some time and effort.

VC-17 is easily removed in the spring with one of those green Scotch Brite pads and water, and a new coat can be applied.
 

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If you see the paint flaking off there is a good chance that whatever is there is an ablative. You don't need to strip it all off. Just do a light sanding to remove all of it that is loose. Then put Pettit SSA on it. It's about $113 per gallon and if you buy before June you get a $20 rebate. Its a cheaper paint but it works and will be fine until the fall.

You can probably do this entire job in an afternoon. Rent an orbital sander, don't apply too much pressure because you do not want to go through the gel coat. Wear a msk and maybe a paper coveralls from Home Depot.

Or just hire someone to do it, for a per foot fee plus the paint. People who do this for a living have sanders that suck up the dust, the respirators, and the rollers and stuff. At least out here, everything but the paint is included in the per foot fee, which, out here, is about $30.

But first call the guy who sold it to you and just ask if he knows what is on it. If you can find out you are much better off. Can't hurt to ask, and if you know you can make a better paint selection.

Then in the fall, if you still want the barrier, soda blast, do the barrier, then you can pick whatever paint you like. The blasting may create some issues that need to be dealt with, and you may want to do some other hull repairs. But pick the paint first, as the paint you pick will control what kind of barrier you need. Not all paint can go on any barrier.

IIRC, you said you are learning to sail. Don't worry about a little slime, it's not going to be a big issue. Just go sail.
 

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Actually, flaking paint is just a sign of poor preparation more than anything else. It doesn't necessarily indicate an ablative paint or hard paint, since either will flake off pretty readily if the surface prep was crappy.
 

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For the purposes of this discussion let define "hard" paints. You likely mean modified epoxy paint, which is the most common non-ablative type available.

Both ablatives and modified epoxies use cuprous oxide as the main toxin. Some products also use additional ingredients to retard slime build-up, but copper is the main toxin in both types. Both types are formulated to release the copper at a controlled rate and do so, 24/7 until the copper is depleted. The major difference is that ablatives are designed to be "self-cleaning"; that is, as the boat moves through the water, the soft outer surface of the paint ablates away, always revealing a clean, fresh paint surface to the water. This is the theory anyway. In regions of moderate to high fouling, ablatives do not self-clean. Modified epoxies are a tougher, more durable paint, that work solely by leaching the copper toxin into the water around the boat.

A newer type of anti fouling category is the "foul release" type. Foul release anti foulings tend to be non-toxic and work by providing a surface that is so slippery that organisms cannot readily attach to the hull.
I would only add that most if not all hard modified epoxies can not be hauled and re-launched. The hard paints become ineffective if hauled then re-launched.

Many, most of them actually, of the copolymer ablatives can be hauled and dry stored with no loss in efficacy when you re-launch..
 

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I would only add that most if not all hard modified epoxies can not be hauled and re-launched. The hard paints become ineffective if hauled then re-launched.

Many, most of them actually, of the copolymer ablatives can be hauled and dry stored with no loss in efficacy when you re-launch..
Pettit claims that Vivid is good for tailored boats, can be relaunched and is multi-season. But they say it is some kind of hybred between ablative and hard.

Still, I think he should just sand the boat, paint it, and see what happens. What is the worst that will happen? He was thinking of blasting it anyhow...
 
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