Personally, I would not insure anything I could pay for with a credit card. Your thinking is sound.

 

I assume most have liability - but wonder how many self insure beyond that.

as long as you have liability in case you hit me I don't care if you "self" insure

My boat is 1/6 of current assets, I'm going to get real insurance.

 

In today's litigious age it would be insane not to carry the proper insurance and just liability alone is just not enough. Agree with Don... Real insurance is just slightly a little more for peace of mind... umbrella coverage on top of that is really smart. But what do I know... right?

 

In today's litigious age it would be insane not to carry the proper insurance and just liability alone is just not enough.

If you're worried about litigation, that would imply some liability to someone else. Liability insurance covers that, so I don't see why it would be "just not enough."

Other than liability, you are insuring for your own loss. If you would rather take the risk than spend the money on insurance, for your own loss, I'd say that's a choice each person can and should make for themselves. If the boat is not a major portion of your total net worth, then it might make more sense to take the risk.

One of the boats that I own is a 15' daysailer. It's total value is well under $2,000. I have an umbrella liability policy, so that's not an issue. I carry no insurance on that boat, because it would make absolutely no financial sense to do so.

 

I called BoatUS about insurance because I am looking at buying something. It really isn't that expensive. I was looking at coverage for a boat costing around 7-8k. The most expensive option was just over $200 a year.

 

IMO self insurance works until something unexpected happens, as was said it gives you a little more piece of mind, personally, I think that is worth it, having said all of this I just got my first boat, so I have a long way to go to learn everything I need to, so I would rather be safe than sorry.

 

I assume most have liability - but wonder how many self insure beyond that.

my thoughts for my circumstances for a future boat purchase for sailing Caribbean from Florida - pay cash for boat , self insure - then no worries about where I go or when. Of course I won't have mucho dollars at risk ( 10K) possibly - worse case scenario - boat is a total loss , while it would be a bit of a financial ding - would be tolerable - vs getting a full survey and paying $700 a year for coverage -

Although don't have the boat yet - but it would be something like an older Cal 29.( which you might not be able to insure anyway)

I self insure.

$10k boat crackers to insure (except liability)

 

I carry insurance because we can't pay the fuel spillage fine. Also, self insured people, do you have the means and expertise to rise a sunken vessel?

 

Wouldn't those expenses be covered by liability?

 

I've got two million liability, I don't understand how you guys are thinking replacement value insurance is going to help you if you hurt 2, 3, or 6 fictitious people.

 

Liability insurance - no problem - just damage coverage to the boat. I have owned larger, financed insured sailboats, had a claim and no real problem - but going forward - I want to keep things as simple as possible - 30 feet or under - tiller steering , able to be easily sailed solo, my wife is OK daysailing but she would not do any passages - bit fraid of the water - I tell her you can drown just as easily in 8 feet of water as 800 - but somehow does not buy my logic ( although she will hop on the back of a moto with me which is 10 times more dangerous)

Simple boat , older but good design, sailing mostly solo in Caribbean from Florida ( and around FL) - if I self insure - would be a cost saving - I can bank the money from insurance and put it in rainy day fund + don't have to worry about restrictions as far as where I can keep the boat.

The ideal boat would be a Cal 29 - possibly early 70's model, I am not sure you could get damage coverage on something that old anyway -

I owned a Cruising Cal 36 in the past , late 60's model, I like the Cal's sailing ability and construction - had insurance on it. But with the consolidation of insurance companies - which I believe will continue - there may be very limited choices in the future - expect rising premiums and more restrictions. Insurance companies are a bit like banks - very highly regulated - tough to survive unless you are very large.

 

The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry... simple yet concise!

 

From the boat US page;

Five Ways Your Boat's Insurance Policy Can Fail You : BoatUS Press Room

Liability-only policies: Looking through the claims files, injuries make the top ten list for payouts not because of their frequency, but because settlements tend to be expensive. Having no insurance could leave you open to a six-figure settlement. If you have a liability-only policy, the better ones will cover injuries as well as salvage, wreck removal and fuel-spill liability.

So as with any insurance policy, bank or legal document, make sure you read the fine print.

goat

 

I have full coverage right now, but that's b/c it's cheap in my home waters. Once we leave here we'll be liability only. Hull is our problem.

Insurance is simply one way of mitigating risk. There are many other methods, most of which I value much higher. For me, I'd rather anchor near someone who has invested well in skills and equipment over a hefty insurance policy.

BTW, I've said this many times, but if anyone cares to look at the real risks involved in most sailing/cruising activities, you'll see they are exceedingly small. Most people who insist on full insurance see one part of the risk equation; they see the potential impact. They ignore the odds of something happening.

Risk ~ impact of event X likelihood of event.

If either factor is is small, risk is small.

For most cruisers where money is not infinite, the cash spent on insurance would be better spent investing in better boat systems and skills.

 

The risk is too small...?

We've heard this before... people who don't insure property, vehicles, homes, boats, aircraft, etc. UNTIL that day comes when the home burns down, the alcohol stove burns the boat and marina down, the car gets into a wreck and maims or even kills passengers... what then? Ask for public help, raise everyone's insurance premiums because some selfish person didn't insure or insure properly to avoid costly mistakes not only for them but the injured in their wake.

If you want to self insure or not have insurance then please avoid contact with my boat, others boats in the anchorages or moorings... of course you can't slip your boat without proper insurance.

Good luck when the worst happens and lawsuits come your way. There are some lawyers on this forum... seek advice!

 

The risk is too small...?

We've heard this before... people who don't insure property, vehicles, homes, boats, aircraft, etc. UNTIL that day comes when the home burns down, the alcohol stove burns the boat and marina down, the car gets into a wreck and maims or even kills passengers... what then? Ask for public help, raise everyone's insurance premiums because some selfish person didn't insure or insure properly to avoid costly mistakes not only for them but the injured in their wake.

I see you fail to understand my post, or perhaps risk assessment eludes you? Life is a risk. Everything we do comes with some risk. By your calculus you should have meteor impact insurance. But you don't b/c you think the risk is too low.

If you actually looked at the stats (which are all online, publicly available) you would see the real risk to most sailors/cruisers is beyond miniscule. For most activities, it is a rounding error. And yes, that includes the actual risk of an alcohol stove (or any fuel) destroying your boat.

You can pull out as many individual examples you want, that doesn't change the actual facts. If you truly can't live with this level of risk, then how in the world do you do truly risky things like drive, walk down a city street or eat most prepared foods? These carry far greater risk than most activities cruisers undertake.

If you can live with no risk, then by all means, hand your money to the insurance companies. Unless money is no issue for you and you can maximize everything, then I personally would rather see you invest it in better anchoring gear. I'd certainly feel safer when you anchor close to me. But that's up to you.

 

If you read my postings its in regard to hull coverage - not liability insurance, everyone can make their own financial calculations if it makes $ sense to have hull coverage. I would think that the cost of the survey plus the annual premiums might not make financial sense for a boat valued $10K or less - which nowadays includes lots of old classic plastic boats.

 

Two of my three boats are covered by policies from the same company that covers my home. They are separate boat policies, specific to the boats. Premium is $50, no survey required. They also include replacement value, only because the minimum premium is $50, so liability-only would not save me any money.

So I think that your argument that the boat is worth too little to make it worth getting any insurance is a weak one. If you can't afford $50 a year, boating is not the right hobby for you.

 

Now I'm wondering what the difference in cost would be between liability only and full coverage. We can afford the lost of the boat but, as I said before, not fuel fines and salvage. Right now the boat is parked in the driveway, yea Nor'sea 27, and is not insured. When we re-insure I'll have them quote liability only and full coverage. Got to wonder what a few extra millions in liability coverage would cost.

 

Good question on the liability and what the extra millions in umbrella would cost you... The extra cost for umbrella coverage is when you reach the maximum liability coverage of your regular insurance then the cost to cover per umbrella kicks in... normally this is not a lot of money... for us it's an extra ~$550/yr coverage above and beyond what we pay for normal coverage... while some may bulk at the cost it covers the homes, cars, and the boat.

I won't state the umbrella coverage amount but we know we are safe from large lawsuits which for those that have significant property you might want to keep... other way is to incorporate and list the boat/home/aircraft/etc. as an asset and protect it this way.

I'm not an insurance broker so any advice seek the help of your insurance broker or legal counselor, as one that has been in these types of litigation all I can offer is what I've learned through the process and eye opening info regarding what could have been.

 

And this is why you should have millions in liability insurance. :eek

Action starts around 1:40

Video: Cruise ship crashes into Ketchikan dock - Alaska Dispatch News

 

More like something in the order of these yachts burning at the slips:

Fire rips through boat at Stock Island marina, smoke fills the Key West sky | News | KeysNet

Sailboat catches fire at Fort Myers Yacht Basin | WINK NEWS

Or maybe low liability limits (to save $$$) is going to save the boats owners here from huge lawsuits?

4 dead in boating accident off Dinner Key Marina

This is fun... wonder if the limits of their liability were met or exceeded?

Sailboat sinks after collision 080714

Fun... fun... fun... at the insurance office and or the courts... you pick!

 

For those thinking about cruising without any insurance remember most marinas and boatyards will insist on seeing proof of insurance [ liability ] when you check in.

Some countries now insist on seeing proof of insurance when you check in.

 

Not sure where you can get boat insurance for $50/year in Florida - that's a pipedream - and my discussion is not about if you can afford hull coverage - just if it makes financial sense to have it on an older boat - if you have a $10,000 boat ( that's paid for) and to insure it - you have to have a survey - probably $500 - plus yearly premiums -that would cover sailing in the Caribbean - probably $500 /year minimum, that seems a stiff price to pay to insure $10,000 investment
Really no different from carrying collision on a car - does it makes sense to pay extra to cover an older inexpensive car?

Again my thoughts on the boat is to have a smaller less expensive older cruiser , that I would not be restricted by insurance to where I can sail and when.

 

And what is the magic number for liability nirvana? Most policies are $2M. What happens when your boat causes $3M damage? If all you carry is $2M then you are essentially "self-insured" for anything more than that.

Many things "could" happen. That doesn't mean they "will" happen. That's what risk assessment is all about. But the insurance companies sell fear and only focus on what "could" happen.

Wait! Do you work for an insurance company guitarguy56? :laugh

 

And what is the magic number for liability nirvana? Most policies are $2M. What happens when your boat causes $3M damage? If all you carry is $2M then you are essentially "self-insured" for anything more than that.

That's not an argument for $0 insurance.

Even in the highly unusual example that you cite, your liability policy gets you a team of lawyers representing the insurance company, doing all the negotiating to minimize the award while you can go on with your life. You're not just buying peace of mind. You're buying the ability to continue to do normal things, like earn a paycheck, without destroying the rest of your life defending yourself. And that is important, because a distraction like defending a million-dollar lawsuit on your own can disrupt your life and create stress in ways that could lead to loss of job, divorce, and other bad things. To many of us, it's worth the premium to be able to pick of the phone to your insurance company and say, "This is what happened. Please take care of it."

By the way, there really is no such thing as "self insurance" for individuals. Large corporations with vast resources and a huge pool to spread the risk may self-insure for many liabilities, including employees' medical coverage, but if you're an individual you can't self-insure because you don't have the assets to cover the risk. Multi-millionaires may have the assets to self-insure, but I'll bet you anything that they're the first ones to protect their assets with insurance, for the reasons that I explained above.

 

Yes... the family who left Mexico just recently with the baby who had to be recused by the coast guard because they lost power and/or steering was disabled 500 miles off the California coast... Yes... NO insurance on the boat... risky... YOU BET... to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars for the rescue... who pays this.. the invisible insurance policy or we the tax payers or is this family on the hook all their lives paying this off with that limited self funded risk fund many speak of here?

 

As far as I know, USCG does not charge for rescuing people ... unless things have changed. So yes, taxpayers pay for this service. It's part of being a citizen.

But once again, you keep raising individual cases. How many people sailed across the Pacific that year without a problem? Hundreds, perhaps thousands? Why not cite those, instead of the rare individual events you keep pointing to? You say you're not basing your argument on fear, yet all your examples do just that.

Once again, why don't you have meteor impact insurance?

 

But I wonder if you get hull insurance on an older classic from the 60's or 70's that has a value less than $20K
Liability probably - but hull coverage?

 

Yes Mike... Our Coast Guard rescues are thankfully paid by taxpayers but it does not mean in certain circumstances the rescuees may have to foot some of the cost. The problem here is that the Coast Guard has no way to issue the cost of rescue based on their words.

Total cost to taxpayers: $663,000 and probably more hidden costs not shown on this tally... Now suppose you had to pay for this rescue if the Coast Guard did not do this sort of thing and must be paid by your insurance... you think that 'self funded' fund you have would take care of this?

Cost for sailing family rescue: $663,000 | SanDiegoUnionTribune.com

Do what you wish and those that have your way of thinking... doesn't hurt me or my pocketbook... but many who choose to make their homes on the boat and make it the only home are in for a surprise when the home sinks and are left with nothing to show for it but memories and hopefully a hefty environmental spill fine and clean up. My insurance covers over a million dollars in spill clean up and is a separate rider on the policy.

I'm sure there is a meteor insurance policy somewhere I'll have to locate it!

Couldn't help posting Mike:

http://www.iii.org/insuranceindustryblog/?p=3162

AIR Worldwide reports that in many countries with developed insurance markets, a comprehensive multi-peril insurance policy generally will cover all risks that are not specifically excluded, meaning that meteorite damage would generally be covered:

The dwelling portion of the homeowner policy is very broad and if damage from falling objects is not listed in the exclusions, it is generally covered.�

The Insurance Information Institute (I.I.I.) also reminds us that while the likelihood of actually getting struck by a satellite, a meteor or an asteroid is extremely rare, the good news is that if one of these falling objects does hit you, your home or car or place of business, the resulting damage would be covered by insurance:

Not so if you have NO INSURANCE!

 

Total cost to taxpayers: $663,000 and probably more hidden costs not shown on this tally... Now suppose you had to pay for this rescue if the Coast Guard did not do this sort of thing and must be paid by your insurance... you think that 'self funded' fund you have would take care of this?

Yes ... would be devastating I'm sure. But once again, all you're seeing/presenting is the impact of an event. You're ignoring the likelihood. The odds of any serious event happening to any of us while on the water is tiny. The stats are clear. Look up USCG marine accident stats, or some such thing. There's a great online database where you can do all sorts of personal research on the subject.

The point I'm trying to make (if there is much of a point here), is that people need to think rationally about the actual risk, and not just be driven by fear of "what it" scenarios. Risk is proportional to both the Impact and the Likelihood of the event happening. The fact is, most of the boating and sailing most people do is, by actual measure, exceedingly safe. The number of people injured, drowned or blown up in alcohol fires (or any fuel fire) each year is a rounding error. The amount of actual damage to boats due to accidents and negligence is also very small. This means the real risk to most of us is very small.

If you can't live with this level of risk, or if money is no issue, then by all means, purchase lots of insurance. But for most of us, resources are not infinite, and we all need to make choices as to where best to spend our boat bucks. Money spent on improving your boat will more likely result in a safer boat, compared to wasting it on an insurance policy.

But you're right, of course. If you're so lucky as to sink, crash, or get blown up in a fiery alcohol fire, then you'll win the insurance lottery. In that case, you'll be happy to have lots of insurance.

Couldn't help posting Mike:

Meteors and Insurance | Commentary and Insights on the Business of Insurance

Fun. Thanks. I feel safer now :wink

 

Umbrella liability, right now through Geico, sailboats up to 27' are covered for liability. Its right there on the policy.

Many people have a fender bender or small claim and they see it covered quickly. They think that someoen else's liability coverafge is going to be their ticket to a new boat. Large claims are not like that, not matter who, or what you policy limits are. They try real hard to avoid paying that $300k.

Just something to think about for those who happily think their neighbor's insurance policy is just going to replace their boat and who disparage someone who doesn't have insurance. You may well have to sue either person. Its just that insurance will defend them. And in some cases admiralty law will limit the liability.

Like most things,I take the middle path - just get some insurance, whatever you can afford and be careful.

 

Everyone!!!!! please stay safely tied at the dock until you have at least $660 Milion of insurance coverage.

 

Maritime law is a far cry from the United States conventional litigation. Shop for insurance and choose carefully.