More details of where it happened and the insurance company concerned?

Any recent work on seacocks, water pumps or prop shaft? I saw a boat sink because the prop shaft and not been keyed in properly and when they hit reverse parking her the shaft backed out and nobody noticed before they went home!

If she sank and you can't find the cause it is a good bet that someone hid the cause!

Phil

 

I would put some pressure on your agent to step up and give you some customer service. Of course, the agent is not liable, as he is just the "agent."

Really strange that no cause was found. Sounds like it should be covered, no?

 

I don't get it; your insurance agent sold your policy to someone?

 

That's what insurance brokers do, they are not insurance companies but trade around.

We recently had a case here in Norway.
Boat was insured through a broker in Lemma Europe Insurance Company Ltd
Lemma went bankrupt Lemma Europe | Liquidation | Insurance | business News on SuperyachtNews.com
A few days after the boat was a total loss ($ 5000000)

The boat owner had to drag the broker to court and won.
There where two reasons he won
1) The broker did not inform the boat owner about the bankruptcy
2) The broker had not made it clear in the paperwork that they only sold insurance..

In Norway we have security systems in place that will protect the customers if an Norwegian insurance company is going broke, but that was not the case for Lemma registered in Gibraltar.

 

They kind of farm them out. Not that I get it either. They put out bids-- who wants to make an offer to insure this boat?

 

Not going to go into names right now. Will be happy to later, though, if we get screwed.

 

Yikes, a terrible situation. FWIW, William Buckley relates a situation in his book "Airborne" where his yacht sank at a dock, and after recovery no cause could be found... on a cruise sometime later one of the guests stepped below and found a foot of water in the cabin. He discovered that the electric bilge pump was running hard - in reverse. If I remember the discharge line lacked a siphon break or it was blocked.

On some vessels, if the head water intake level is left up, the bowl will overfill and start to fill the boat.

A loose or defective sink discharge hose is another common source of flooding.

You (or the insurance company) may just need someone to play the Sherlock Holmes and find the cause.

Regardless the cause, I would expect the insurance company would have to pay up. The financial hit for you may depend on whether your policy has a declared value for a total loss, that figure then replacing any likely sale price.

 

Well you won't really know anything till they find the cause. That is likely the reason for your agents silence. There is nothing he can commit to until it is determined what happened. If they find it was something like a toilet that was left back flooding by someone who was looking at the boat, then they will likely try to charge your broker's insurance company, if it was determined that it was caused by lack of maintenance causing a seacock to break they may deny any coverage altogether (normally there are exclusions in the insurance for things like corrosion). Or if it is found to be a covered event then they may just write you a check for the covered amount. I am not saying any of the scenarios above is what happened, or even possible just that the insurance guy is likely waiting for an evaluation before saying anything. Is this your KP-44 you posted about in the past? If so I am extra sorry as it is one of my favorite boats of all time and likely what I want to get in about 10 or so years to prepare to cruise off into the sunset on.

Here is a thread to read:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/168849-i-hate-boats.html

It is a LONG LONG thread and about a different issue, but has a happy ending (well I don't think it has ended yet, but on it's way) but if you read it you will see what is involved in a major insurance claim. Not like a car accident where the guy has a laptop and a printer in the Gecko car and they pay you on the spot. Strange though it should be obvious what caused it. And if they do pay you, send me an PM and if it is located in the North East perhaps we could work out a deal if you buy it back from the insurance company. You may want to pay for a survey to be done so you know for sure what caused it and what needs to be done to bring the boat back. The surveyor works for the person paying the bill so the insurance companies surveyor may not find in your favor.

One last word, I have never heard of a broker that did any maintenance while they had a boat at there brokerage dock. So if it was there long, it may have deteriorated, but I doubt they are liable for maintenance at all unless specifically agreed upon ahead of time. I know when I have looked at boats, I have heard things like "Oh I should tell the owner that there bilge pump is out" or "we told them to replace that last month, thought they had already."

 

May I suggest , perhaps bit early, an attorney needs to time of ownership and liability. The insurance may string you out for months and months. Much like Medsailor thread.
Especially if it is a large claim. Remember insurance companies do Not like to pay. I am sure more facts will surface. All parties have liability insurance , even if they say they don't.
Good Luck

 

She was pumped out and re-floated, in the slings, and we weren't there -- boatyard gave us 3 hours notice to make the 3 hour trip, and the "notice" was emailed, so we had no idea ).

NO PHONE CALL???????

Sounds like your broker definitely dropped the ball

I wish I could say I was surprised. He and I would definitely be having a conversation...

 

Did you even read Medsailor's thread? I think that proves the benefit of having insurance if your boat is worth anything.

But I suspect that facts don't matter to you. You'll just go on your anti-insurance rants no matter what the facts say.

 

Here's my question--do we have an advocate in this nightmare? Our insurance broker (who had been pretty good about maintaining contact over the last 10 years as long as it concerned us paying our premiums) has gone quiet. We seem to be at the mercy of the people to whom he sold our policy, and they're not giving us any love either. We're not sure how to handle this. I'd put the barfing smilie here but it's kind of annoying.

Kind of hard to jump on the band wagon about poor response time from your insurer or insurance broker when you give us no time line.

The underwriter will send a surveyor to investigate and then make a determination based on the surveyors report. If you are unhappy with their determination, valuation etc. hire your own (better qualified) surveyor to argue against them.

 

I stopped doing marine insurance investigations several years ago because I was so frustrated and angered that ninety percent of the claims I investigated were either grossly exaggerated or outright fraud. Too often the underwriters paid out on these claims because it was cheaper than fighting them.

 

The OP used the term insurance broker. That may be how they refer to all insurance salespeople, however, it technically refers to an individual who sells insurance on behalf of an insurance carrier, but has no ability to act on their behalf. An Agent, on the other other hand, does the same, but can act on the carrier's behalf. Such as binding coverage. In the end, both brokers and agents typically represent several carriers and good ones can help you understand who provides the best coverage, claims processing, etc. Not just the best price, which is too often buying the worst coverage or claims support.

If your broker/agent isn't helping now, they should be kicked to the curb for any more of your business. Helping with claims is partially where they earn their keep.

You're going to have to determine the cause of the flooding, as it could impact your claim. Not every cause is covered in every policy.

Good luck.

 

no matter how ya look at it, it just sux.
sorryfor your woes, mate

 

You might wanna look into a private insurance adjuster,they usually work on a contingency fee and would certainly be in your corner and know the Ins games ropes.I've dealt with them in other ways never for boats,but I'm sure they're there.

 

I'm thinking good thoughts for you.

The broker is on vacation. On Monday he is going to make everything right.

The Insurance company just can't find your policy due to taking over another company but on Monday it will show up.

Then it is just a matter of issuing the check.

I'm thinking about Jan 1st.

That's the way it is going to go down.
First priority is to start checking out new boats you don't have any time to waste.


I know these things.

 

I think the problem, perhaps better described as a misunderstanding, is that one believes can buy insurance and it will cover any loss, no matter the reason. That, quickly bluntly, is selfish. It's like placing a bet on 17 on the roulette wheel. You bet the ball will land on 17, the house bets it won't. The analogy is you bet your boat will sink, the house bets it won't. The ball lands on 18 and house won't pay. Then you get upset that it's so close to 17 they should pay anyway.

Where it gets fuzzy is all the technical language that defines the bet both sides are making. It never covers anything and everything. It can't really. Some risks are unmeasurable. Then comes the most frustrating part. Some insurance companies will argue the merits of most claims, hoping to reduce there payout to more meek clients. Others will write the check immediately. Guess which policy will have a higher premium.

You need a good agent/broker to help a layperson identify the difference.

 

I am really sorry to hear of your travails. I have been through some of these kinds of things either with some of my boats ( struck by lightning) or other people's boats, ( the yard winterized the boat and the yard did not put a hose clamp on a water intake and when the boat was launched it slowly filled the boat over a several hour period of time. That one was hard to find since the clamp appeared to be in place, and the water flow was very slow until it was submerged a few more inches since the top of the nipple was pretty close to the waterline.).

As others have pointed out your insurance broker is only a salesman, he is not your insurance company. Your actual insurance company should have issued you a written policy which lists your rights and coverages. It typically describes how to make a claim including a phone number to call to make a claim. Also, You typically get a wallet card with the name of your actual insurance company, your policy number, and the phone number for the claims department as well.

When I have had a claim, I have called the claims department number and they assign either some and /or all of a claims officer, marine surveyor, appraiser, and/or an investigator. On occasion these have all been one person. That person comes down and evaluates your claim. They are often authorized to pay to have the boat hauled, and to pay for mitigation, such as hauling out the engine and having it cleaned inside and out to prevent further damage, or force ventilating the boat to dry it quickly before mold can form.

That investigator will attempt to develop a likely cause for the claim, assess the cost of repairs, and issue a recommended settlement. In my case, I have always been offered what I thought was a fair settlement, but I know that I am probably an exception. I have also heard of terrible abuse by insurance companies which would require an attorney.

If other damage is discovered as the repairs are being made, the investigator is typically called back to look at the discovered issue, and may issue a 'supplemental' payment which is intended to pay for this additional work. The settlement that you will be asked to sign should include language that defines that supplementals will be issued if additional damage is discovered and how that process will work.

So the first place to start is to look at your insurance policy. Then call and make a claim as required. Most policies require that the owner file the claim in a specific period of time, and that the owner do what they can to mitigate further damage, such as washing the salt out and then drying out everything quickly in the case of a boat which sunk. You should ask the claims department about that since some companies want everything left as is until the investigation occurs.

While an attorney may ultimately be required, that is not the place to start. While a cause of the sinking may never be determined, the cause may be irrelevant to whether you whether or how much get paid depending on the language of you policy. Most policies pay the costs of a sinking unless the owner purposely caused it. It won't pay the cost of the defective element that caused the sinking but will pay all else less your deductible. If the cause was boatyard neglect, the insurance company will go after the boat yard's insurance and you will only be required to testify if that proceeds. If the boat yard loses, the only impact on you is that you won't have to pay your deductible.

Respectfully ,
Jeff

 

Some clarifications-- it's been 3 1/2 weeks since the boat sank. The one and only time we have had communication with the broker/agent is when we called him to notify him of the accident. Since then no replies to emails or calls. Yesterday I tried hitting #2 when I called the office (the line for insurance claims)-- it leads to a dead end. No ****. Sure wish I'd tried that when we first called them for insurance.

Let me contrast our previous experiences with a GREAT insurance company-- ERIE Insurance, based in Erie PA, but available now in in many states. Through the years of our lives as well as our parents' lives, any insurance claims (including a major house fire) have been handled quickly, politely, and with great professionalism, always with the broker (the person with whom we always have contact, and who "knows" us) as the intermediary in the process. He/she is the person we call if we have questions or concerns about anything, and he/she responds quickly. I understand that the difference in this situation is that these brokers are representatives of Erie Insurance only, and that the guy with whom we have our boat insurance is not. But the overwhelming problem in this situation is that though we've paid our boat insurance faithfully for many years, and now that we come to the moment when we have a claim, there is NO ONE who represents or advises us in this situation. It's easy to say "get a lawyer," but lawyers are expensive, I'm think we've all noticed. I also resent that I should have to resort to that. The point of my dissatisfaction is simply this: In this unfamiliar and trying situation, we are surrounded by professionals (marina maintenance people, boat salespeople, surveyors, adjustor, all with experience in marine insurance losses, all fighting for their own interests. And unless we HIRE a lawyer, we stand alone, with no knowledge or experience, with a potential huge loss.

 

Some clarifications-- it's been 3 1/2 weeks since the boat sank. The one and only time we have had communication with the broker/agent is when we called him to notify him of the accident. Since then no replies to emails or calls. Yesterday I tried hitting #2 when I called the office (the line for insurance claims)-- it leads to a dead end. No ****. Sure wish I'd tried that when we first called them for insurance.
.

Yes but, your broker/agent is not your insurance company. Making a claim with him or his non-existent claims department could be totally irrelevant. We're you ever actually issued a policy? Does it list the name of the actual insurance company?

You need to look at your policy and follow the procedures on your policy. You need to properly contact your insurance company as they define that within your policy. Three and a half weeks is a long time not to have properly filed a claim and that may be where you lose out.

If you have never been issued a policy, then as others have said, you may have been scammed and you don't actually have insurance. Or your broker/agent is not a broker/agent but a fly by night insurance company who writes policies and then may or may not find people to underwrite those policies. If that is the case then this may become consumer fraud issue and that will involve lawyers, who may take that case on contingency.

Jeff

 

I'm no expert, but it's the Internet so I'll pretend to be one:

If it's 3.5 weeks and you haven't gotten a visit from an insurance adjuster, something is seriously wrong, and you may even have a case of insurance fraud. A lawyer might be the only way out of this, and timing is critical at this point. You might also look into your state's insurance regulation agency - they might provide some guidance on how to proceed to protect your rights.

There are numerous issues that could dictate whether you are entitled to coverage, but at the very least you must be visited by an adjuster to begin the process of determining root cause and whether it is covered.

 

I'm no expert, but it's the Internet so I'll pretend to be one:

If it's 3.5 weeks and you haven't gotten a visit from an insurance adjuster, something is seriously wrong, and you may even have a case of insurance fraud.

We have had contact with the adjustor. He sent us a letter telling us our claim number. Then we called him, and he told us to have our agreement with the sales brokerage forwarded to him. Not to beat a dead horse, but this guy is NOT on our side.

BTW, we appreciate all the input from others with experience with their own losses, as well as knowledge of others' losses. And yes, we know that the missing information is what exactly went wrong on the boat. Unfortunately, the boatyard's lack of timely notification on the re-floating of the boat has left us unable to (maybe ever) determine the cause. If someone was on the boat (a prospective buyer, for instance) and left something open that should have been closed, we'll never know.

 

Call the insurance company, not your agent or broker, and go through the claim process as described in the policy.

This summer I had a claim on my boat insurance, provided billing statement, estimates, photographs, but when I realized the claim was only slightly more than the deductable, called them back and canceled the claim, no problems.

Make your call to the insurance company in a relaxed and clear voice as if you are making a call on channel 16.

 

You need to become a seriously squeaky wheel. Best guess is you're dealing with an insurance company that takes the approach of seeing who will just go away and limit their claims losses. Don't make an easy mark.

 

I should think that if it sank in the care of a broker, at their dock, they would have at least a partial responsibility here.
I'd spend the money to get an attorney and let him do all the work. Insurance companies will try to bully you, but probably would not mess around with a competent attorney nearly as much.

 

Whether or not the broker has any liability would be dependent on the brokerage agreement. Most broker's agreements leaves the boat owner with the sole responsibility to maintain their vessel. It would be very unusual for an agreement to make the broker responsible but it does happen which is why I would speculate that the adjuster requested the broker's agreement.

I don't see the advantage of bringing in an attorney until it has been determined that the insurance company is not performing in accordance with the policy or they otherwise stop responding.

Since QuestionsQuestions now has a contact person and a claim number it would make sense to call to request a description of the process and a timeline, trying to get that in writing, but at least taking copious notes and follow up with an email or letter summarizing their understanding of the process-timeline. Then follow up on the phone and with written summaries to make sure that the process is proceeding as agreed or they know why it isn't.

Jeff

 

So sorry to hear of your situation. I can sympathize because I had a similar situation earlier this year. After being launched by the yard, out boat partially sank at the dock overnight. it turned out that the yard foreman had failed to notice that there were sea cocks under the sink in the head, and one of the sea cocks was open with no hose attached. It stinks.

But the yard immediately contacted me; I was a couple of hours from the boat and unable to get there immediately, but they immediately hauled the boat, pickled the engine, dewatered her with pumps and accepted full responsibility. They also removed anything that might hold water or dampness, installed a dehumidifier on board and kept fans running to dry out the boat for more than a week. I did contact my insurance company, Boat US, who immediately assigned a contact person and within a couple of days sent a surveyor to inspect the damage. We did a survey of the boat with the yard owner, myself, the surveyor provided by my insurance company and one provided by the yard's insurance company. Both surveyors seemed to go out of their way to make sure that anything in any doubt was to be completely replaced, especially all of the electrical doohickeys, such as VHF, stereo, wiring panels, wires, alternator, starter, batteries, etc. They replaced everything soft on the boat (mattresses, cushions, etc.). Since the boat had been in winter storage, much was not on the boat, such as the chartplotter and sails, and so was not affected. Fortunately, the pickling of the engine seems to have worked and they ran multiple oil changes through it and the analysis of the oil and fuel has been fine.

After the joint survey, I spoke to the surveyor from my insurance company in confidence and he said that the yard was quite responsible. Unfortunately, in his experience, there are many yards that would have simply reconnected the hose or closed the seacock, and then said the cause of the sinking was unknown. Makes one wonder about the "unknown" origin of your sinking.

In my case, my insurance paid nothing, I paid no deductible, the yard and yard's insurance covered everything, and we got relaunched about 2 months later (though there were a few parts that came in later). The boat is, I suppose, at least as good as it was before the sinking, since it now has some updated electronics, new batteries, and other electrical, new cushions and covers, and seems to show no ill effects. I was quite concerned about mildew or smell, but the efforts of the yard seem to have solved that; I was also concerned that some of the floor boards or cabin liners might have ill effects, but I have seen none.

I hope your ending is as happy as mine, but I would be quite concerned about the insurance company's silence. BoatUS was on top of it almost instantly, before there was any discussion of cause or cure, and the quick work on the boat surely reduced the loss dramatically.

 

Not to get off the subject of insurance, but...

Isn't it interesting how often boats sink or partially sink immediately after leaving the boatyard.

It happened to me twice. The first time after having a new engine installed, it was twelve hours before I arrived and discovered ankle deep water in the cabin. The second time we were aboard and were able to deal with it immediately.

Lesson learned: Be there when the boat is launched and go aboard immediately to check everything.

 

Not to get off the subject of insurance, but...

Isn't it interesting how often boats sink or partially sink immediately after leaving the boatyard.

It happened to me twice. The first time after having a new engine installed, it was twelve hours before I arrived and discovered ankle deep water in the cabin. The second time we were aboard and were able to deal with it immediately.

Lesson learned: Be there when the boat is launched and go aboard immediately to check everything.

I worried (and fretted, and worried some more) after launching our boat after the last haul out. Because of scheduling conflicts, and delays, my boat partner couldn't be there for the launch and I had to drive back to my office soon after I got the boat back in her slip. I did wait around for a half-hour or so once I tied the boat up (sure that at any moment something was going to bust loose and the bilge pump would start whirling away). everything looked fine when I left, but I wasn't really comfortable until my partner could check the boat thoroughly the next morning and give me a call.