Our beautiful 43' sailboat sank at the brokerage dock where she was listed for sale. Overnight. She was in great condition, and well maintained, at least when she was in our care. We've been all over her after the fact, while she was on the hard, and haven't been able to find the cause. (She was pumped out and re-floated, in the slings, and we weren't there -- boatyard gave us 3 hours notice to make the 3 hour trip, and the "notice" was emailed, so we had no idea ). Here's my question--do we have an advocate in this nightmare? Our insurance broker (who had been pretty good about maintaining contact over the last 10 years as long as it concerned us paying our premiums) has gone quiet. We seem to be at the mercy of the people to whom he sold our policy, and they're not giving us any love either. We're not sure how to handle this. I'd put the barfing smilie here but it's kind of annoying.
Boat sank at the dock
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In forty years of boating, I've never worked with a broker, or stayed at a marina, where they exercised any responsibility for my boat. Although I am sure one can contract either to assume such responsibility, it seems pretty unlikely the OP did so.
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While someone may be liable for negligence itself, I would bet the slip contract and brokerage contract explicitly exclude their general liability.
I agree I used to work for a power boat dealer and broker when in college (high end go fast boats in the 80's) and I know for a fact we never did any maintenance on any brokered boats at all. We would mention it to the owners and they would take care of it or had us find someone to do it. All of the boats were very expensive and well maintained. Fun job in college to take out customers all summer, but not fun when the commission checks never really came in. Oh well I still had fun out on the water.
1. A large percentage of claims are fraud. The insurance company is not out to get you, but to protect the premiums of the rest of us.
2. Maintenance is the single biggest cause of sinking at the dock. It is not a covered loss as the insurance company will not cover a loss due to inadequate maintenance.
If you have any survey from the past, especially one given to the insurance company at any time, all items should be fixed, repaired, or mitigated in some way and keep proof of that. A maintenance log, receipts and pictures will go a long way to saving your butt when the time comes.
If you have any glaring issues like hose clamps, hoses, etc. They will cost you a fortune if they are the cause of sinking.
As stupid as it sounds, we use a pilots checklist on our boat.
Why is it not stupid? Just about any dock sinking can be attributed to a maintenance issue. If you walk into court with documents, receipts and logs showing you have maintained the boat as prudently as possible, there is not a judge or jury who would side with the insurance company unless the act was proven deliberate or a result of workmanship on a recently completed job by a yard or other hired professional.
3. This leads me to the "out" many yards and professionals are using in their work-orders. They ask you to sign away your right to allow the insurance company to subrogate on your behalf. This means if they cause the boat to sink, the insurance company would pay your claim, then go after the yard that was found to be the cause. If you sign away that right, your policy is null and void and you have to fight the yard yourself and their liability can be written as such they that they will replace the defective part only, and pay for the haul to do so. Leaving the rest of the boat ruined and possible hefty environmental and towing/salvage bill.
4. Document EVERYTHING. Times you called, who you called, who you talked to, what you did, etc. If you are ever asked a question in court and state that you kept notes on everything and if you may refer to them, then give exact details, you will impress a judge. Trust me, they will come in with those records of when you called, who you talked to, etc.
5. If you have good records, can document everything, the boat was in great shape, etc. Talk to a good attorney in a consult and have him at the ready if it starts to go south.
6. Same as #5 on shape and documentation, make sure you stop at nothing to find the reason the boat sank, if they can't find a reason, get the police involved with a police report if you think it may have been human caused, or pay the yard to keep the boat in a slip next to the yard until the problem is found if you think it was caused otherwise. Be more concerned with finding out why then who is going to pay or get paid.
A lot of people blast the insurance companies for failure to pay on the loss when they don't maintain their boats at all and then complain to the world about it. If there is a years worth of growth on the bottom and the boat looks like it was last cleaned when Carter was president, don't even bother putting a claim in.
It breaks my heart to hear the many stories about a boat sinking after a yard or mechanic made a mistake. Make sure not to sign your rights away and let the insurance company fight the yard for you.
2. Maintenance is the single biggest cause of sinking at the dock. It is not a covered loss as the insurance company will not cover a loss due to inadequate maintenance.
If you have any survey from the past, especially one given to the insurance company at any time, all items should be fixed, repaired, or mitigated in some way and keep proof of that. A maintenance log, receipts and pictures will go a long way to saving your butt when the time comes.
If you have any glaring issues like hose clamps, hoses, etc. They will cost you a fortune if they are the cause of sinking.
As stupid as it sounds, we use a pilots checklist on our boat.
Why is it not stupid? Just about any dock sinking can be attributed to a maintenance issue. If you walk into court with documents, receipts and logs showing you have maintained the boat as prudently as possible, there is not a judge or jury who would side with the insurance company unless the act was proven deliberate or a result of workmanship on a recently completed job by a yard or other hired professional.
3. This leads me to the "out" many yards and professionals are using in their work-orders. They ask you to sign away your right to allow the insurance company to subrogate on your behalf. This means if they cause the boat to sink, the insurance company would pay your claim, then go after the yard that was found to be the cause. If you sign away that right, your policy is null and void and you have to fight the yard yourself and their liability can be written as such they that they will replace the defective part only, and pay for the haul to do so. Leaving the rest of the boat ruined and possible hefty environmental and towing/salvage bill.
4. Document EVERYTHING. Times you called, who you called, who you talked to, what you did, etc. If you are ever asked a question in court and state that you kept notes on everything and if you may refer to them, then give exact details, you will impress a judge. Trust me, they will come in with those records of when you called, who you talked to, etc.
5. If you have good records, can document everything, the boat was in great shape, etc. Talk to a good attorney in a consult and have him at the ready if it starts to go south.
6. Same as #5 on shape and documentation, make sure you stop at nothing to find the reason the boat sank, if they can't find a reason, get the police involved with a police report if you think it may have been human caused, or pay the yard to keep the boat in a slip next to the yard until the problem is found if you think it was caused otherwise. Be more concerned with finding out why then who is going to pay or get paid.
A lot of people blast the insurance companies for failure to pay on the loss when they don't maintain their boats at all and then complain to the world about it. If there is a years worth of growth on the bottom and the boat looks like it was last cleaned when Carter was president, don't even bother putting a claim in.
It breaks my heart to hear the many stories about a boat sinking after a yard or mechanic made a mistake. Make sure not to sign your rights away and let the insurance company fight the yard for you.
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I would file a complain with your states insurance regulator. They may be able to provide valuable assistance. If nothing else if they get enough complaints they will shut down the broker or underwriter in your state. Looks like you are in New York, so that would be here: Insurance Information For Consumers
The insurance company has done nothing wrong yet. What are you going to complain about? They have an adjuster assigned and the adjuster will review the claim, speak with the yard, the brokerage, hire a surveyor to determine the ammount and cause of damage, etc. There is a lot involved and a process it has to go through.
You don't sink your boat, or wreck your car for that matter, and expect someone to cut a check a few days/weeks later, unless it is cut and dry. Let them work through it, but the OP should be prepared.
Again, the reason they do this is to keep people from using the insurance company as an out when they can no longer afford to keep their boat.
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Almost 4 weeks has passed, apparently without a visit from a surveyor. Does that seem unusually slow?
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I have to say that the behavior of the insurance company does not match any experience that I have ever had with a claim to a marine insurance company. In most cases the insurance company rep's have been aboard within days of the report.
They have done phone interviews with me asking detailed questions about my written report. They have wanted me there during their survey so that we both see the same things and can discuss them. They have interviewed the yard within a couple days of the claim. They have issued instructions on (and agreed to pay for) methods of mitigation where appropriate.
The idea that there has not been comparatively frequent contact from the surveyor/adjuster/ claims agent, seems very unprofessional, and unusual, especially in the case of a sinking where mitigation and protection is so time critical.
In my life, my family has had a boat that was a total loss after being driven on the rocks in a late season tropical storm, and I had a boat which lost its rig, a racing collision that sliced open a brand new headsail and bent stanchions flat to the deck, a strange chemical leak that ate the sealant out of the keel joint and caused the boat to start leaking rapidly, and a boat that was hit by lightning. I have helped others through a number of claims. And while not all of these claims were paid or paid promptly, the one common occurrence in all cases is that the insurance companies were 'all hands on deck' from the first phone call to their sense of resolution of the claim.
The fact that a surveyor or adjuster has not been all over this boat is just plain suspicious. Even if the insurance company suspected fraud, they would have been all over that boat if for no other reason than to support their suspicions . Assuming we have been told everything accurately, there is no way to justify the lack of attention from this insurance company.
Jeff
They have done phone interviews with me asking detailed questions about my written report. They have wanted me there during their survey so that we both see the same things and can discuss them. They have interviewed the yard within a couple days of the claim. They have issued instructions on (and agreed to pay for) methods of mitigation where appropriate.
The idea that there has not been comparatively frequent contact from the surveyor/adjuster/ claims agent, seems very unprofessional, and unusual, especially in the case of a sinking where mitigation and protection is so time critical.
In my life, my family has had a boat that was a total loss after being driven on the rocks in a late season tropical storm, and I had a boat which lost its rig, a racing collision that sliced open a brand new headsail and bent stanchions flat to the deck, a strange chemical leak that ate the sealant out of the keel joint and caused the boat to start leaking rapidly, and a boat that was hit by lightning. I have helped others through a number of claims. And while not all of these claims were paid or paid promptly, the one common occurrence in all cases is that the insurance companies were 'all hands on deck' from the first phone call to their sense of resolution of the claim.
The fact that a surveyor or adjuster has not been all over this boat is just plain suspicious. Even if the insurance company suspected fraud, they would have been all over that boat if for no other reason than to support their suspicions . Assuming we have been told everything accurately, there is no way to justify the lack of attention from this insurance company.
Jeff
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Okay, to clarify and update: The surveyor hired by the insurance company was there to see the boat the day after it sank, and also the day it was experimentally re-floated. He too was given short notice on the re-floating, and arrived after the boat had already been in the water for a time (maybe 1/2 hour or so). We were informed too late and were not able to be there at all.
When we were first informed that the boat had sunk, we called the insurance broker, and the adjustor called soon after. We asked if he wanted it raised right away or did he want someone to see it first. He told us then that he couldn't tell us what to do. So great. We were informed last week by this same insurance adjustor that it was our responsibility to get someone to give us an estimate for repairs. We asked the yard to give estimates, they just called today to say that they will not be able to get started on that until "after the first of the year." Meanwhile, we're paying $350/month for them to keep the boat in the yard, as opposed to the $160/month it was costing for it to be in the water there, when it was for sale. So now we have to figure out who else to call to get an estimate from, in an area where we don't know anyone.
When we were first informed that the boat had sunk, we called the insurance broker, and the adjustor called soon after. We asked if he wanted it raised right away or did he want someone to see it first. He told us then that he couldn't tell us what to do. So great. We were informed last week by this same insurance adjustor that it was our responsibility to get someone to give us an estimate for repairs. We asked the yard to give estimates, they just called today to say that they will not be able to get started on that until "after the first of the year." Meanwhile, we're paying $350/month for them to keep the boat in the yard, as opposed to the $160/month it was costing for it to be in the water there, when it was for sale. So now we have to figure out who else to call to get an estimate from, in an area where we don't know anyone.
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We started tonight to seriously document-- I appreciate the advice. We also have about a hundred pictures taken last spring for a prospective buyer from overseas who wanted to see every thru-hull, bulkhead, hose clamp, connection, etc. It was a big pita at the time but I'm glad now we did it. I know every Tom Dick and Harry would come on here and say their boat was very well-maintained and up-to-date, etc, but this boat really was, and we have lots of pictures to prove it.
As far as finding out what happened to cause the boat to sink, that's easier said than done. By the time we got there the day after, seacocks were closed that had previously been left open for the showing of the boat (sink drains, etc.). The seacocks are Groco expanding rubber plug style, which few people seem to be familiar with.
Have they at least pickled the motor and started drying out the boat with dehumidifiers? If not there is damage that may not be able to be repaired happening now. Wood rots, and mold will start to form in places that can't really be cleaned like behind the liner. Since you are waiting on them, it seems they should be charging the in water storage fees but that is small potatoes compared to any new damage that will unlikely be covered. How high did the water get? Just above the floor boards? Above the engine?
Where is the boat located? (IE Florida, or North East) That can play a big roll in what needs to be done. Things are just not adding up. 350 a month for a boat that size does not sound bad, but that depends on where it is.
Where is the boat located? (IE Florida, or North East) That can play a big roll in what needs to be done. Things are just not adding up. 350 a month for a boat that size does not sound bad, but that depends on where it is.
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Engine has been pickled, dehumidifiers run, the entire interior was washed down and sprayed with some sort of anti-mold stuff. Mattresses and cushions etc are off the boat. Water got above settees and berths, just below the electrical panel.
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Not that it will help you now, but maybe in the future:
I have an alarm on my boat that will alert me if the battery is on low voltage or the bilge water gets high. The alarm will send me a text to my cell phone. I think the monthly charge is about $20 a month for the cell use and the alarm unit itself was about $200. It is some money, but it gives me piece of mind and if water sets the alarm I should have time to get to the boat to stop the leak. My unit is no longer made:
My Boats Gear
I normally check the boat every few days. Last week I checked on it and found the bilge pump running continuously. The problem was the float switch had apparently developed a leak and even though it was down, the salt water allowed partially continuity and the pump was running at about 1/2 speed. If my battery had run down or the bilge level got high- I would have gotten a text.
You can also get alarms sent for things like freezing temp, intrusion, gps movement of boat, and just about whatever you like. There are many types of alarms systems now available.
Here is another unit now available:
http://aqualarm.net/bilge-alarms-sw...larms-switches-c-6/20240ca-high-water-alarm-with-cell-and-email-alert-p-70.html
I have an alarm on my boat that will alert me if the battery is on low voltage or the bilge water gets high. The alarm will send me a text to my cell phone. I think the monthly charge is about $20 a month for the cell use and the alarm unit itself was about $200. It is some money, but it gives me piece of mind and if water sets the alarm I should have time to get to the boat to stop the leak. My unit is no longer made:
My Boats Gear
I normally check the boat every few days. Last week I checked on it and found the bilge pump running continuously. The problem was the float switch had apparently developed a leak and even though it was down, the salt water allowed partially continuity and the pump was running at about 1/2 speed. If my battery had run down or the bilge level got high- I would have gotten a text.
You can also get alarms sent for things like freezing temp, intrusion, gps movement of boat, and just about whatever you like. There are many types of alarms systems now available.
Here is another unit now available:
http://aqualarm.net/bilge-alarms-sw...larms-switches-c-6/20240ca-high-water-alarm-with-cell-and-email-alert-p-70.html
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The only time I was required to provide a waiver of subrogation was at an airport, not a marina. However, it had to come from the insurance carrier themselves, as they are the party that is waiving their right. Then, of course, they charged me more, since their loss exposure was higher.
I've not looked to see if policies are typically void, if you waive that right. It would make some sense, but I don't know how you can waive another party's rights, without their consent.
What Is Subrogation ... and Why Is My Contract Waiving It? Will explain this to you.
Why it pays to read all the laungage on every contract you sign. A work order is an enforceable contract. Your insurance policy is an enforceable contract.
San Diego Log has a column on the website called 'ask an attorney' The Log Newspaper | California Boating & Fishing News
There you may find specifics on sunk at the dock cases and results. I think it should be required reading for all boat owners - along with all the contracts we sign daily...
So what is the problem, the yard did what it was supposed to do.
It is now up the boat owner to work with the insurance company.
If the incident is covered insurance pays, if not the owner is responsible.
All the broker does unless contracted otherwise is to facilitate the transaction between owner and buyer.
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There is nothing that requires that you get the estimate from the yard that you are in. You are completely free to ask another yard to come in and do an estimate with the understanding that their estimate should include the costs to move the boat to the other yard.
The worst that can happen is that you get turned down by the other yard. The more likely is that you will end up with two independent estimates from two separate yards making it harder for the insurance company to deny the cost estimates for the repairs.
The best that can happen is that the yard that you are in gets nervous and prepares a claim more rapidly. By the same token, it takes quite a bit of time to prepare a proper estimate for the sinking of a 44 footer. So losing a week or two is not the end of the world as far as things like this go. The difference in price between land and water storage while awaiting repair may be covered in your policy, you will need to check. I know that my insurance paid to keep my boat on land while they assessed the damage and while she was repaired after the lightning strike.
Jeff
It is a painful process, but make sure when you talk to your adjuster to set expectations at the end of the call of what the process is, next steps, and what they need from you.
It sounds like the yard is the problem right now. Are there other yards in the area?
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Not knowing what state the OP is in, or what the laws of that state might be...
I would comment that "insurance" is a highly regulated industry, and insurance companies often violate those regulations. It is always worth calling your local (city, county, state) insurance commission or consumer affairs department and finding out what the actual laws governing your insurance are.
For instance, with auto insurance, in many states the insurer has 30 days in which to make an offer and/or payment, no matter how ridiculous that offer might be. If they don't respond in 30 days, they simply have to pay out in full , without protest, and the means for valuing the loss are also dictated by the law. Insurers often find creative ways to pretend they don't know how the required valuations must (MUST) be made.
So that's one question, which can be answered locally for free on the phone. What is the insurer required to do, in terms or timely payment and payment amount?
The other question goes to contract laws, for the yard contract and the insurance contract. I'd bet the yard contract says "Not responsible for anything in this universe, especially unsupervised..." BUT contracts are also governed by state laws and precedents from the state courts.
Launching a boat, without checking for leaks and water ingress, could easily be construed as "gross negligence" and sometimes, the change from simple negligence to gross negligence voids the waivers in the contract, and makes someone like the yard responsible anyway. The insurer would then regain the rights to subrogation, if they wanted to pursue the matter. often, they just raise premimums and just don't care. But again--that's something to explore either with the local Consumer Affairs depaterment, or by spending a hundred bucks for a short conference with a lawyer.
None of this is new, from the regulatory/business side of things. And all of the ansers will depend on local/state laws.
Stick a boat in the water, don't look at the waterline an hour later to see how it is floating...How hard is it to LOOK at a boat? I'd push for the "gross negligence" button.
I would comment that "insurance" is a highly regulated industry, and insurance companies often violate those regulations. It is always worth calling your local (city, county, state) insurance commission or consumer affairs department and finding out what the actual laws governing your insurance are.
For instance, with auto insurance, in many states the insurer has 30 days in which to make an offer and/or payment, no matter how ridiculous that offer might be. If they don't respond in 30 days, they simply have to pay out in full , without protest, and the means for valuing the loss are also dictated by the law. Insurers often find creative ways to pretend they don't know how the required valuations must (MUST) be made.
So that's one question, which can be answered locally for free on the phone. What is the insurer required to do, in terms or timely payment and payment amount?
The other question goes to contract laws, for the yard contract and the insurance contract. I'd bet the yard contract says "Not responsible for anything in this universe, especially unsupervised..." BUT contracts are also governed by state laws and precedents from the state courts.
Launching a boat, without checking for leaks and water ingress, could easily be construed as "gross negligence" and sometimes, the change from simple negligence to gross negligence voids the waivers in the contract, and makes someone like the yard responsible anyway. The insurer would then regain the rights to subrogation, if they wanted to pursue the matter. often, they just raise premimums and just don't care. But again--that's something to explore either with the local Consumer Affairs depaterment, or by spending a hundred bucks for a short conference with a lawyer.
None of this is new, from the regulatory/business side of things. And all of the ansers will depend on local/state laws.
Stick a boat in the water, don't look at the waterline an hour later to see how it is floating...How hard is it to LOOK at a boat? I'd push for the "gross negligence" button.
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