Our beautiful 43' sailboat sank at the brokerage dock where she was listed for sale. Overnight. She was in great condition, and well maintained, at least when she was in our care. We've been all over her after the fact, while she was on the hard, and haven't been able to find the cause. (She was pumped out and re-floated, in the slings, and we weren't there -- boatyard gave us 3 hours notice to make the 3 hour trip, and the "notice" was emailed, so we had no idea ). Here's my question--do we have an advocate in this nightmare? Our insurance broker (who had been pretty good about maintaining contact over the last 10 years as long as it concerned us paying our premiums) has gone quiet. We seem to be at the mercy of the people to whom he sold our policy, and they're not giving us any love either. We're not sure how to handle this. I'd put the barfing smilie here but it's kind of annoying.
Boat sank at the dock
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I think the problem, perhaps better described as a misunderstanding, is that one believes can buy insurance and it will cover any loss, no matter the reason. That, quickly bluntly, is selfish. It's like placing a bet on 17 on the roulette wheel. You bet the ball will land on 17, the house bets it won't. The analogy is you bet your boat will sink, the house bets it won't. The ball lands on 18 and house won't pay. Then you get upset that it's so close to 17 they should pay anyway.
Where it gets fuzzy is all the technical language that defines the bet both sides are making. It never covers anything and everything. It can't really. Some risks are unmeasurable. Then comes the most frustrating part. Some insurance companies will argue the merits of most claims, hoping to reduce there payout to more meek clients. Others will write the check immediately. Guess which policy will have a higher premium.
You need a good agent/broker to help a layperson identify the difference.
Where it gets fuzzy is all the technical language that defines the bet both sides are making. It never covers anything and everything. It can't really. Some risks are unmeasurable. Then comes the most frustrating part. Some insurance companies will argue the merits of most claims, hoping to reduce there payout to more meek clients. Others will write the check immediately. Guess which policy will have a higher premium.
You need a good agent/broker to help a layperson identify the difference.
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I am really sorry to hear of your travails. I have been through some of these kinds of things either with some of my boats ( struck by lightning) or other people's boats, ( the yard winterized the boat and the yard did not put a hose clamp on a water intake and when the boat was launched it slowly filled the boat over a several hour period of time. That one was hard to find since the clamp appeared to be in place, and the water flow was very slow until it was submerged a few more inches since the top of the nipple was pretty close to the waterline.).
As others have pointed out your insurance broker is only a salesman, he is not your insurance company. Your actual insurance company should have issued you a written policy which lists your rights and coverages. It typically describes how to make a claim including a phone number to call to make a claim. Also, You typically get a wallet card with the name of your actual insurance company, your policy number, and the phone number for the claims department as well.
When I have had a claim, I have called the claims department number and they assign either some and /or all of a claims officer, marine surveyor, appraiser, and/or an investigator. On occasion these have all been one person. That person comes down and evaluates your claim. They are often authorized to pay to have the boat hauled, and to pay for mitigation, such as hauling out the engine and having it cleaned inside and out to prevent further damage, or force ventilating the boat to dry it quickly before mold can form.
That investigator will attempt to develop a likely cause for the claim, assess the cost of repairs, and issue a recommended settlement. In my case, I have always been offered what I thought was a fair settlement, but I know that I am probably an exception. I have also heard of terrible abuse by insurance companies which would require an attorney.
If other damage is discovered as the repairs are being made, the investigator is typically called back to look at the discovered issue, and may issue a 'supplemental' payment which is intended to pay for this additional work. The settlement that you will be asked to sign should include language that defines that supplementals will be issued if additional damage is discovered and how that process will work.
So the first place to start is to look at your insurance policy. Then call and make a claim as required. Most policies require that the owner file the claim in a specific period of time, and that the owner do what they can to mitigate further damage, such as washing the salt out and then drying out everything quickly in the case of a boat which sunk. You should ask the claims department about that since some companies want everything left as is until the investigation occurs.
While an attorney may ultimately be required, that is not the place to start. While a cause of the sinking may never be determined, the cause may be irrelevant to whether you whether or how much get paid depending on the language of you policy. Most policies pay the costs of a sinking unless the owner purposely caused it. It won't pay the cost of the defective element that caused the sinking but will pay all else less your deductible. If the cause was boatyard neglect, the insurance company will go after the boat yard's insurance and you will only be required to testify if that proceeds. If the boat yard loses, the only impact on you is that you won't have to pay your deductible.
Respectfully ,
Jeff
As others have pointed out your insurance broker is only a salesman, he is not your insurance company. Your actual insurance company should have issued you a written policy which lists your rights and coverages. It typically describes how to make a claim including a phone number to call to make a claim. Also, You typically get a wallet card with the name of your actual insurance company, your policy number, and the phone number for the claims department as well.
When I have had a claim, I have called the claims department number and they assign either some and /or all of a claims officer, marine surveyor, appraiser, and/or an investigator. On occasion these have all been one person. That person comes down and evaluates your claim. They are often authorized to pay to have the boat hauled, and to pay for mitigation, such as hauling out the engine and having it cleaned inside and out to prevent further damage, or force ventilating the boat to dry it quickly before mold can form.
That investigator will attempt to develop a likely cause for the claim, assess the cost of repairs, and issue a recommended settlement. In my case, I have always been offered what I thought was a fair settlement, but I know that I am probably an exception. I have also heard of terrible abuse by insurance companies which would require an attorney.
If other damage is discovered as the repairs are being made, the investigator is typically called back to look at the discovered issue, and may issue a 'supplemental' payment which is intended to pay for this additional work. The settlement that you will be asked to sign should include language that defines that supplementals will be issued if additional damage is discovered and how that process will work.
So the first place to start is to look at your insurance policy. Then call and make a claim as required. Most policies require that the owner file the claim in a specific period of time, and that the owner do what they can to mitigate further damage, such as washing the salt out and then drying out everything quickly in the case of a boat which sunk. You should ask the claims department about that since some companies want everything left as is until the investigation occurs.
While an attorney may ultimately be required, that is not the place to start. While a cause of the sinking may never be determined, the cause may be irrelevant to whether you whether or how much get paid depending on the language of you policy. Most policies pay the costs of a sinking unless the owner purposely caused it. It won't pay the cost of the defective element that caused the sinking but will pay all else less your deductible. If the cause was boatyard neglect, the insurance company will go after the boat yard's insurance and you will only be required to testify if that proceeds. If the boat yard loses, the only impact on you is that you won't have to pay your deductible.
Respectfully ,
Jeff
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Some clarifications-- it's been 3 1/2 weeks since the boat sank. The one and only time we have had communication with the broker/agent is when we called him to notify him of the accident. Since then no replies to emails or calls. Yesterday I tried hitting #2 when I called the office (the line for insurance claims)-- it leads to a dead end. No ****. Sure wish I'd tried that when we first called them for insurance.
Let me contrast our previous experiences with a GREAT insurance company-- ERIE Insurance, based in Erie PA, but available now in in many states. Through the years of our lives as well as our parents' lives, any insurance claims (including a major house fire) have been handled quickly, politely, and with great professionalism, always with the broker (the person with whom we always have contact, and who "knows" us) as the intermediary in the process. He/she is the person we call if we have questions or concerns about anything, and he/she responds quickly. I understand that the difference in this situation is that these brokers are representatives of Erie Insurance only, and that the guy with whom we have our boat insurance is not. But the overwhelming problem in this situation is that though we've paid our boat insurance faithfully for many years, and now that we come to the moment when we have a claim, there is NO ONE who represents or advises us in this situation. It's easy to say "get a lawyer," but lawyers are expensive, I'm think we've all noticed. I also resent that I should have to resort to that. The point of my dissatisfaction is simply this: In this unfamiliar and trying situation, we are surrounded by professionals (marina maintenance people, boat salespeople, surveyors, adjustor, all with experience in marine insurance losses, all fighting for their own interests. And unless we HIRE a lawyer, we stand alone, with no knowledge or experience, with a potential huge loss.
Let me contrast our previous experiences with a GREAT insurance company-- ERIE Insurance, based in Erie PA, but available now in in many states. Through the years of our lives as well as our parents' lives, any insurance claims (including a major house fire) have been handled quickly, politely, and with great professionalism, always with the broker (the person with whom we always have contact, and who "knows" us) as the intermediary in the process. He/she is the person we call if we have questions or concerns about anything, and he/she responds quickly. I understand that the difference in this situation is that these brokers are representatives of Erie Insurance only, and that the guy with whom we have our boat insurance is not. But the overwhelming problem in this situation is that though we've paid our boat insurance faithfully for many years, and now that we come to the moment when we have a claim, there is NO ONE who represents or advises us in this situation. It's easy to say "get a lawyer," but lawyers are expensive, I'm think we've all noticed. I also resent that I should have to resort to that. The point of my dissatisfaction is simply this: In this unfamiliar and trying situation, we are surrounded by professionals (marina maintenance people, boat salespeople, surveyors, adjustor, all with experience in marine insurance losses, all fighting for their own interests. And unless we HIRE a lawyer, we stand alone, with no knowledge or experience, with a potential huge loss.
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I'm no expert, but it's the Internet so I'll pretend to be one:
If it's 3.5 weeks and you haven't gotten a visit from an insurance adjuster, something is seriously wrong, and you may even have a case of insurance fraud. A lawyer might be the only way out of this, and timing is critical at this point. You might also look into your state's insurance regulation agency - they might provide some guidance on how to proceed to protect your rights.
There are numerous issues that could dictate whether you are entitled to coverage, but at the very least you must be visited by an adjuster to begin the process of determining root cause and whether it is covered.
If it's 3.5 weeks and you haven't gotten a visit from an insurance adjuster, something is seriously wrong, and you may even have a case of insurance fraud. A lawyer might be the only way out of this, and timing is critical at this point. You might also look into your state's insurance regulation agency - they might provide some guidance on how to proceed to protect your rights.
There are numerous issues that could dictate whether you are entitled to coverage, but at the very least you must be visited by an adjuster to begin the process of determining root cause and whether it is covered.
Call the insurance company, not your agent or broker, and go through the claim process as described in the policy.
This summer I had a claim on my boat insurance, provided billing statement, estimates, photographs, but when I realized the claim was only slightly more than the deductable, called them back and canceled the claim, no problems.
Make your call to the insurance company in a relaxed and clear voice as if you are making a call on channel 16.
This summer I had a claim on my boat insurance, provided billing statement, estimates, photographs, but when I realized the claim was only slightly more than the deductable, called them back and canceled the claim, no problems.
Make your call to the insurance company in a relaxed and clear voice as if you are making a call on channel 16.
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Yes but, your broker/agent is not your insurance company. Making a claim with him or his non-existent claims department could be totally irrelevant. We're you ever actually issued a policy? Does it list the name of the actual insurance company?
You need to look at your policy and follow the procedures on your policy. You need to properly contact your insurance company as they define that within your policy. Three and a half weeks is a long time not to have properly filed a claim and that may be where you lose out.
If you have never been issued a policy, then as others have said, you may have been scammed and you don't actually have insurance. Or your broker/agent is not a broker/agent but a fly by night insurance company who writes policies and then may or may not find people to underwrite those policies. If that is the case then this may become consumer fraud issue and that will involve lawyers, who may take that case on contingency.
Jeff
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We have had contact with the adjustor. He sent us a letter telling us our claim number. Then we called him, and he told us to have our agreement with the sales brokerage forwarded to him. Not to beat a dead horse, but this guy is NOT on our side.
BTW, we appreciate all the input from others with experience with their own losses, as well as knowledge of others' losses. And yes, we know that the missing information is what exactly went wrong on the boat. Unfortunately, the boatyard's lack of timely notification on the re-floating of the boat has left us unable to (maybe ever) determine the cause. If someone was on the boat (a prospective buyer, for instance) and left something open that should have been closed, we'll never know.
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Yeah, no, we do have insurance, did look at the policy the day after the loss, did find the paragraph where they told us to notify them "in writing" of the loss, "immediately following", and did that as well.
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Sounds like so far you've complied with the notification terms.
Has the adjuster, or a designated surveyor, actually visited the boat to investigate? If not, then something's fishy after 3.5 weeks. You may think that there's nothing left to see, but a good surveyor can find a lot of things. And the surveyor would also say what work needs to begin immediately to minimize the consequential damages.
If they can't find the cause, then the insurance may have to pay out your claim. That seems to be what happened with Medsailor, and they're paying for his rebuild.
Where is the boat broker in all this? He would have records of all authorized visits to your boat, and if he's destroyed those it's a huge RED FLAG. Your insurance company should be ALL OVER HIM because his insurance company is their free meal ticket if they can pin it on him.
I'm not suggesting that the boat broker was responsible for maintenance (probably not unless agreed to in writing) -- I'm saying that he would have been with a possible buyer who may have done something to cause the damage, like opened a seacock, pulled off a hose, etc.
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You need to become a seriously squeaky wheel. Best guess is you're dealing with an insurance company that takes the approach of seeing who will just go away and limit their claims losses. Don't make an easy mark.
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I should think that if it sank in the care of a broker, at their dock, they would have at least a partial responsibility here.
I'd spend the money to get an attorney and let him do all the work. Insurance companies will try to bully you, but probably would not mess around with a competent attorney nearly as much.
I'd spend the money to get an attorney and let him do all the work. Insurance companies will try to bully you, but probably would not mess around with a competent attorney nearly as much.
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Whether or not the broker has any liability would be dependent on the brokerage agreement. Most broker's agreements leaves the boat owner with the sole responsibility to maintain their vessel. It would be very unusual for an agreement to make the broker responsible but it does happen which is why I would speculate that the adjuster requested the broker's agreement.
I don't see the advantage of bringing in an attorney until it has been determined that the insurance company is not performing in accordance with the policy or they otherwise stop responding.
Since QuestionsQuestions now has a contact person and a claim number it would make sense to call to request a description of the process and a timeline, trying to get that in writing, but at least taking copious notes and follow up with an email or letter summarizing their understanding of the process-timeline. Then follow up on the phone and with written summaries to make sure that the process is proceeding as agreed or they know why it isn't.
Jeff
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Good idea.
So sorry to hear of your situation. I can sympathize because I had a similar situation earlier this year. After being launched by the yard, out boat partially sank at the dock overnight. it turned out that the yard foreman had failed to notice that there were sea cocks under the sink in the head, and one of the sea cocks was open with no hose attached. It stinks.
But the yard immediately contacted me; I was a couple of hours from the boat and unable to get there immediately, but they immediately hauled the boat, pickled the engine, dewatered her with pumps and accepted full responsibility. They also removed anything that might hold water or dampness, installed a dehumidifier on board and kept fans running to dry out the boat for more than a week. I did contact my insurance company, Boat US, who immediately assigned a contact person and within a couple of days sent a surveyor to inspect the damage. We did a survey of the boat with the yard owner, myself, the surveyor provided by my insurance company and one provided by the yard's insurance company. Both surveyors seemed to go out of their way to make sure that anything in any doubt was to be completely replaced, especially all of the electrical doohickeys, such as VHF, stereo, wiring panels, wires, alternator, starter, batteries, etc. They replaced everything soft on the boat (mattresses, cushions, etc.). Since the boat had been in winter storage, much was not on the boat, such as the chartplotter and sails, and so was not affected. Fortunately, the pickling of the engine seems to have worked and they ran multiple oil changes through it and the analysis of the oil and fuel has been fine.
After the joint survey, I spoke to the surveyor from my insurance company in confidence and he said that the yard was quite responsible. Unfortunately, in his experience, there are many yards that would have simply reconnected the hose or closed the seacock, and then said the cause of the sinking was unknown. Makes one wonder about the "unknown" origin of your sinking.
In my case, my insurance paid nothing, I paid no deductible, the yard and yard's insurance covered everything, and we got relaunched about 2 months later (though there were a few parts that came in later). The boat is, I suppose, at least as good as it was before the sinking, since it now has some updated electronics, new batteries, and other electrical, new cushions and covers, and seems to show no ill effects. I was quite concerned about mildew or smell, but the efforts of the yard seem to have solved that; I was also concerned that some of the floor boards or cabin liners might have ill effects, but I have seen none.
I hope your ending is as happy as mine, but I would be quite concerned about the insurance company's silence. BoatUS was on top of it almost instantly, before there was any discussion of cause or cure, and the quick work on the boat surely reduced the loss dramatically.
But the yard immediately contacted me; I was a couple of hours from the boat and unable to get there immediately, but they immediately hauled the boat, pickled the engine, dewatered her with pumps and accepted full responsibility. They also removed anything that might hold water or dampness, installed a dehumidifier on board and kept fans running to dry out the boat for more than a week. I did contact my insurance company, Boat US, who immediately assigned a contact person and within a couple of days sent a surveyor to inspect the damage. We did a survey of the boat with the yard owner, myself, the surveyor provided by my insurance company and one provided by the yard's insurance company. Both surveyors seemed to go out of their way to make sure that anything in any doubt was to be completely replaced, especially all of the electrical doohickeys, such as VHF, stereo, wiring panels, wires, alternator, starter, batteries, etc. They replaced everything soft on the boat (mattresses, cushions, etc.). Since the boat had been in winter storage, much was not on the boat, such as the chartplotter and sails, and so was not affected. Fortunately, the pickling of the engine seems to have worked and they ran multiple oil changes through it and the analysis of the oil and fuel has been fine.
After the joint survey, I spoke to the surveyor from my insurance company in confidence and he said that the yard was quite responsible. Unfortunately, in his experience, there are many yards that would have simply reconnected the hose or closed the seacock, and then said the cause of the sinking was unknown. Makes one wonder about the "unknown" origin of your sinking.
In my case, my insurance paid nothing, I paid no deductible, the yard and yard's insurance covered everything, and we got relaunched about 2 months later (though there were a few parts that came in later). The boat is, I suppose, at least as good as it was before the sinking, since it now has some updated electronics, new batteries, and other electrical, new cushions and covers, and seems to show no ill effects. I was quite concerned about mildew or smell, but the efforts of the yard seem to have solved that; I was also concerned that some of the floor boards or cabin liners might have ill effects, but I have seen none.
I hope your ending is as happy as mine, but I would be quite concerned about the insurance company's silence. BoatUS was on top of it almost instantly, before there was any discussion of cause or cure, and the quick work on the boat surely reduced the loss dramatically.
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Not to get off the subject of insurance, but...
Isn't it interesting how often boats sink or partially sink immediately after leaving the boatyard.
It happened to me twice. The first time after having a new engine installed, it was twelve hours before I arrived and discovered ankle deep water in the cabin. The second time we were aboard and were able to deal with it immediately.
Lesson learned: Be there when the boat is launched and go aboard immediately to check everything.
Isn't it interesting how often boats sink or partially sink immediately after leaving the boatyard.
It happened to me twice. The first time after having a new engine installed, it was twelve hours before I arrived and discovered ankle deep water in the cabin. The second time we were aboard and were able to deal with it immediately.
Lesson learned: Be there when the boat is launched and go aboard immediately to check everything.
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when my boat goes in this spring (hopefully) I am going to pay a little extra for them to do what they do with the wooden boats.. leave them in the slings overnight. It has been a few years since my Sprite has seen the water and I did a lot of serious structural repairs to her keel.. so I want to make sure I do not find a mast sticking up out of the water that morning.
And yes, I will sleep aboard her that first night (if I sleep at all)
And yes, I will sleep aboard her that first night (if I sleep at all)
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I worried (and fretted, and worried some more) after launching our boat after the last haul out. Because of scheduling conflicts, and delays, my boat partner couldn't be there for the launch and I had to drive back to my office soon after I got the boat back in her slip. I did wait around for a half-hour or so once I tied the boat up (sure that at any moment something was going to bust loose and the bilge pump would start whirling away). everything looked fine when I left, but I wasn't really comfortable until my partner could check the boat thoroughly the next morning and give me a call.
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This is a best practice, but I get to be there mid-week about one in five. However, I always go the weekend prior to launch and personally close every thru hull, inspect the prop seal, and test the bilge pump and high water alarm.
To our yard's credit, they will not launch a boat without a working bilge pump. Some owners get cranky, when they haven't hauled their batteries back yet. I have seen several boats at the bottom of their slip in the spring. Seems to be a high risk time.
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I think the insurance company has to take responsibility, also the dock should give you more answers, hey where responsible for taking good care of your boat.
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