They work well.. You still need a vang because the kicker only pushes up. (Assuming we're talking about the twin f/g rod style kicker)

I like to dispense with the TL because it avoids leech chafe from the topping lift flailing around. This is a relatively inexpensive way to accomplish that.

 

They work well.. You still need a vang because the kicker only pushes up. (Assuming we're talking about the twin f/g rod style kicker)

I like to dispense with the TL because it avoids leech chafe from the topping lift flailing around. This is a relatively inexpensive way to accomplish that.

http://http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail.htm?group=395

this is the one. it isn't supposed to be a boom vang replacement. i thought it sounded like the perfect solution to my topping lift problem. i just wanted a second opinion. looks like that'll be my next purchase. are you familiar with this model?

 

I can't tell about that specific model since I have no idea what model is on my boat, or my last boat, or the one before that. But the style, with two fiberglass rods acting like springs is very common on smaller boats (up to 30' or so) and work very well. Mine was strong enough to support the boom wi the mainsail and cover on, and did so for years with no issues.

 

another vote towards getting one!

 

I am looking at making the transition from topping lift to boom kicker or rigid vang this year.

The topping lift gets in the way while under sail (chafes the luff)... it works great to hold the boom up, but that extra weight aloft is not helpful either.

These kickers should work well for your Cal, just be aware some booms aren't perfectly shaped for the "standard" kit. Mine for example has a "lip" on the bottom which prevents directly attaching the bracket (catalinadirect makes a boom kicker custom kit for it).

But generally, if your boom is nicely round, and there is room at the bottom of your mast, and you already have a vang, then a kicker is a great addition. Keep in mind you'll want to move the mainsail halyard to the aft end of the boom once you secure the main... Also if you are this acutely aware of the problems related to the topping lift, you'll likely want to remove it completely from weight aloft. The price you link to seems quite good.

A boomkicker completely supports the boom for a VERY short period of time, when the sail is down, and you haven't moved the mainsail halyard yet to the aft end of the boom.

The ADVANTAGES of the boomkicker are easily seen when you are in extra light air, it allows the boom to come up some to keep the shape of the lower portion of your main (more draft). A topping lift can be used the same way, but in my experience that usually happens in variable air... and you need the top lift for a bit and then not...

A boomkicker HAS to work in conjunction with a vang. The vang works against the upward force of the boomkicker.

As an alternative to the boomkicker/vang combo, is a rigid vang. Garhauer Marine Hardware -7211578

 

Keep in mind you'll want to move the mainsail halyard to the aft end of the boom once you secure the main.

A boomkicker completely supports the boom for a VERY short period of time, when the sail is down, and you haven't moved the mainsail halyard yet to the aft end of the boom.

so, the boom kicker can't be used to completely replace a topping lift without the aid the the main halyard? is it just this type? i ask because:

Mine was strong enough to support the boom wi the mainsail and cover on, and did so for years with no issues.

 

I added the k1250 Boomkicker to our Olson and love it. It keeps the boom out of the cockpit when dropping the main, and since I single-hand quite a bit, that's a huge plus for me. It's also very simple to install.

 

I have one on my 23' and I love it

 

An alternative that is even cheaper to is to make your topping lift out of very light dyneema line (1/8" or smaller, 2mm stuff is good but harder to splice). It can be a fixed length about 12 to 18" shorter than your main's leech with a fixed very lightweight block at the end (<20 grams). Run a line from the end of the boom up to that block and then to a control point.

This lightweight topping lift will blow out of the way of the main in even the tiniest breeze. It costs about $40-50 total depending on your main sail size. There are two splices to make, but they are easy brummel splices in single braid. The dyneema is more than strong enough for the needs here.

You can see my topping lift blowing out between the leech of the sail and the backstay. You can also see that my mainsail could have a lot more roach, and the next one will.

I don't even adjust my topping lift very often. I leave it set like that so that when the main comes down the boom drops slightly until the topping lift goes taught. Occasionally in very light air I'll use the topping lift to avoid closing the mainsail leech and to keep shape in the sail.

 

Never had a topping lift, just used a pigtail to the backstay. Bought a boom kicker and installed it last year, it was a great upgrade. I love it.

 

yeah. that's my thing. my holiday has a topping lift. this boat only has the pig tail. every poster has been positive towards the boom kicker. i am going to check out that link for the rigid vang, though, before deciding. that might be a better option. my cal also doesn't have a vang, so, if the rigid vang is a good price, that would kill two birds with the same stone.

ok. wow. that's salty. i can make my own vang for much less. i am going to check around for deals, though, before i decide.

 

Rigid Vang is kind of a racers option... they are usually quite pricey.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

that explains it. good option but out of my range. not trying to turn a $300 boat into a $3000 boat. i can't afford to. good thought, though, were i in a different financial bracket.

 

Depending on how you set it up (initial tension) will determine how effective the kicker will be at 'holding up the boom'.. and how much resistance it might offer the vang. However well it may provide support, though, if you're in the cockpit and stumble a bit and lean on the boom it will give under your weight.

So in the interests of stability at a mooring or dock, use the main halyard as a temporary topping lift. It will extend the life of the kicker, and at the same time avoid halyard slap as you're 'storing' the halyard well off the mast.

 

ok. cool. then i am getting one while the price is good. i have the necessary hardware to make a vang. i just need to get the line. that's a whole lot cheaper than a rigid vang. hell, the cost of a rigid vang is three times what i paid for the whole boat!

one question for you. i haven't heard from Michael in a bit. i was wondering if you had any idea how i should set up the main sheet. my holiday 20 has the sheet routed no more complex than my dinghy. however, i am sure i will want mechanical advantage for the bigger sail. not sure how much, though, and i can't find anything cal 27 specific, on line. you always seem to have good info, so i am sure you might have a good suggestion.

 

I'm sure you know very well you'll be putting much more money into this than the initial 'cost'

 

LOL. yes, but hopefully not on one small part.

 

Here's a link to a 'for sale' page.. this one has the traveler and sheet forward where I like it.. is yours similar?



Cal 27 "Firecracker"

 

no. that one is designed for outboard. see the cut ot in the transom? that's whay the traveler is forward. nice boat, by the way.

 

Low friction 4:1 will be fine.

Moving the traveler to that location would not be a huge job... long term I think it would be the best solution from a boat handling perspective. I've done it on previous boats before. You can see the little 'bridge' they put under the track where it spans the cockpit opening - all easily done.

Don't have much use for 'clam' cleats, not exactly sure what you mean by 'euro' jam cleats.. the standard Harken and similar 'cam cleats' work fine for me.. and can usually be setup for easy release.

What's doing on the motor front?

 

unfortunately, it's kind of hove to, for now. the motor is 5 hours from Michael, so it's really too far for me to ask him to go running to see it. i sent a message through this site and through email to ask the guy to take me some pictures. no answer. i have his number. probably call him after the holiday ( thanksgiving, not my other boat. lol ) and see if i can't get that back on course. i am a bit leary of buying it completely sight unseen...by myself or someone i trust.

there is a small issue of transporting it here. if Michael is five hour from him, in the same state, i can only imagine how far i am from him. so, i don't think i will be driving there to pick it up. he says he might know a long haul trucker that might get this way from time to time. i am going to get price quotes from UPS and FedEx. it may be a substantial cost to transport it. time will tell.

in the meantime, it's scraping paint, doing woodwork, getting my running rigging sorted, and a score of other things going on. no shortage of stuff to take care of. lol.

i have been thinking that i may need to see if the neighboring marina, who will be hauling her for me, will let me pay for extra time on the hard. between scraping barnacles, prepping for paint, painting ( probably doing the topsides when i do the bottom paint. the deck is fine but the topsides are faded and i don't think fresh paint would hurt ), inspecting the hull and all the through hulls, cleaning/ inspecting/working on the prop shaft, and replacing that one rub rail ( the one to starboard is cracked. also a better job done on the hard ), i just don't know if a week is going to do me. i know how to work hard ( been doing it all my life ) but a person can only do so much in a day.

 

if you are going to span the cockpit opening then use a Harken high beam track and there is no need for the bridge

 

i will have to check that out. that's an option. it depends on cost. it's not hard for me to build stuff so the benefits of buying something have to balance out the cost differences.

i see his point about having the traveler forwards, however there are two detracting points about that placement, for me.

first, i don't like the idea of the sheet being dead against the companionway opening. i can just see somene sticking their head out of the door at the same time an accidental jibe occurs. i always keep a vigilant eye, but stuff happens. not sure i want a potentially dangerous line running across the companionway opening.

secondly i was going to do away with the hatch board, once i sort out what i am doing about the pop top, and build a nice set of french doors for it. having the traveler right there wouldn't work out, if i do that.

then again, if i do build a permanent coach roof to replace the pop top, i could build it strong enough to mount the traveler there. that might take care of both things.

however, the traveler is better at controlling sail shape ( close hauled, of course ) if it is closer to the other end of the boom, as it is now.

i have some time to worry about that, but i like to have all, or at least most, of my plans done ASAP. changing one thing, midway through a project, can mess up other things. that can really set you back in time and money.

 

hmmmm i almost think it would be good for a mod to just merge this thread in with the one i was previously using to communicate with folks about this boat.

 

The Boom Kicker needs something pulling down against it otherwise the Kicker will come off its track at the boom attachment when the boom moves up and down. I have the Boom Kicker and a block and tackle vang installed. You need to keep the slack off the vang to keep the Kicker from coming off the track. Other than that it works great.

 

cool. a fellow marylander! funny. if your name is an indicator, we share the same finances, too:laugher

cool. i have all te hardware for a vang. it's ben my plan to hae one, since the beginning. the boomkicker does seem to be the solution to a problem, though.

 

Broke sailor, they have an improved boom fitting for the boom kicker. I retrofitted mine and the attachment no longer pops off. Big improvement when racing as the old slide would pop off at the most inopportune times.

 

If you are broke then just do the topping lift. It is a lot cheaper and just as effective in 95% of situations (the lightweight design the I described really gives nothing up). I prefer having a boom that doesn't bounce around when I'm flaking the sail and putting the mainsail cover back on. Of all of the places to spend money on running rigging a boom kicker or rigid vang is near the bottom in my opinion.

My boat has the traveler forward at the bridge deck and has french opening doors. The bridgedeck on my boat is fairly deep (about 1') and this provides the clearance to allow for both the doors and traveler without any interference. It looks like that might be harder to do on your boat, but it is something to consider. I went from a boat with transom-mounted main sheet to having it in front of the companionway and the latter has much better ergonomics. The traveler is easier to access and you don't have a sheet to dodge on every tack.

 

If you are broke then just do the topping lift. It is a lot cheaper and just as effective in 95% of situations (the lightweight design the I described really gives nothing up). I prefer having a boom that doesn't bounce around when I'm flaking the sail and putting the mainsail cover back on. Of all of the places to spend money on running rigging a boom kicker or rigid vang is near the bottom in my opinion.

the boomkicker is on sale. it's a great solution to the problem of having no topping lift. has benefits over the topping lift and at a discount. broke is a relative term. you can often come by more money, than you think you have, by juggling your expenses, going without other things, or scoring some side work. if i was rock bottom broke, i couldn't have come up with the 300 for the boat, to begin with. yes, i did have to do it in two payments but i wanted it so i worked it out. of course, it doesn't always work that way. some things just can't be done in the time frame you want. but i can squeeze out the funds for this. 35% off is good.

My boat has the traveler forward at the bridge deck and has french opening doors. The bridgedeck on my boat is fairly deep (about 1') and this provides the clearance to allow for both the doors and traveler without any interference. It looks like that might be harder to do on your boat, but it is something to consider. I went from a boat with transom-mounted main sheet to having it in front of the companionway and the latter has much better ergonomics. The traveler is easier to access and you don't have a sheet to dodge on every tack.

that does seem to be the consensus.

speaking of money, i have those sails for barter. what about winches? i have three nice ones, i don't actually need, from that boat i scrapped out. can those be bartered , too?

hmmmm for that matter, what about the rails from the stern and bow of that boat? i was going to use them for the holiday but it's been fine, without, for 17 years. it might be a better use of potential capital to barter them for stuff for the boat that actually needs stuff.

and, hey, i have a cute younger sister....lol. no. just kidding. i don't have a sister and i doubt my brother's wife would let me pimp him out. he might not mind, though. lol.

seriously, though, what about the winches and guard rails? can they be bartered like the sails? and by bartered i mean sold to one of the places in annapolis, that deals in used sailboat hardware and sails, and the capital used to buy what i need, also used.

 

What are the benefits that you see over a topping lift?

There is only one that I'm aware of. It lets you lift the boom for light air sailing by adjusting only one line (the vang) instead of two (vang and topping lift). 35% off is still in the $150 ballpark, which is about 3x the cost of a lightweight topping lift.

I'd personally rather spend $100 discretionary income on high quality blocks for the main sheet, a nice winch handle (like the Lewmar One Touch), free running traveler cars, new jib sheets, an adjustable backstay, or new genoa track cars. All of those have a much bigger effect on sailing than a rigid vang.

Try sailing with both and see what you think. I've sailed with both (two boats that I sail on regularly have either rigid vangs or boom kickers) and I don't find them to be beneficial.

Winches are easy to sell on eBay or Craigslist, and they are often listed there so you can get an idea of what they are being sold for. #14 and up ones, especially Lewmar, Harken, or Andersen, normally sell for good prices ($200+ in good condition). #6/7/8 are all a lot simpler and thus cheaper (under $100) but will still buy you some upgrades.

Sails are harder to evaluate and sell, but still possible. Just get some good measurements and photographs. If they'll fit on your boat then you can get an idea of how blown out they are.

 

well, it already has an adjustable backstay. i have nice harken performance blocks for the jib ( and am getting equal quality harken hardware for the main ). i have nice hardware for a vang, too. i got these nice blocks, including the ones for the vang, for free from that boat i scrapped. the traveler parts, already on the boat, function very well. they don't seem to be cheap, at all. so, i am ahead of the game, there. that saved me a bit of money i would have had to spend, otherwise.

there is no topping lift, however. the boomkicker, if nothing else, will be simpler to install than a topping lift, simply because i won't have to go aloft. i have never had issues with the topping lift on my holiday20 but posters, here, have listed some benefits to the boomkicker and they seem to make sense, to me.

to be honest, looking at the boomkicker, it's not a complex unit. i could fabricate one. i have been consdering it. then again, i do have enough other stuff to do on the boat so, maybe, it might be more time effective to buy while it's on sale.

i will look on ebay and craigslist for an idea of how much i might get for those winches. that was a good idea. thanks.

 

i do have a question. does anyone know how the interior is bult? i need to replace one of the plywood panels. the cabin flood and interior benches are plywood. one that runs back, beside the cockpit, is old enough to be soft. plywood does that, in time, and i am surprised there aren't more of them bad.

right now, i can't tell if those panels are glassed to the hull, or not. so, i was wondering if anyone knew how they were installed.

i was looking at the traveler. it isn't supported in the middle. it spans the gap between the benches, just as it would behind the campanionway door. so, it would be fairly easy to move it. however, i'm not sure i really want to. i think i will sail her with the sheet as it is set up, now, and see what i think. if i move the traveler, perhaps i will consider moving it to the cabin roof, rather than against the companionway door.

 

It's likely that your plywood panels are mainly glassed in, it's probably not a 'liner' type of boat (where the furnishings are a separately molded fg piece dropped into place)

You could cut out the old, grind it fair, replace and 'retab' back onto the hull if necessary.

I wouldn't go so far as to move the traveler to the coach roof.. it won't work well with the poptop, and if you proceed with your lifted headroom idea, you'll likely end up with too little distance between boom and traveler. Add to that the loss of mechanical advantage of another 2-3 feet forward, extra stresses on the boom etc etc.

Have you tried any of the Cal owners' group sites? There should be some first hand knowledge specific to these boats there.

 

It's likely that your plywood panels are mainly glassed in, it's probably not a 'liner' type of boat (where the furnishings are a separately molded fg piece dropped into place)

exactly. it's not a FG liner. so, that answers my question. they are glassed in.
thankfully, it's only one.

You could cut out the old, grind it fair, replace and 'retab' back onto the hull if necessary.

got you.

I wouldn't go so far as to move the traveler to the coach roof.. it won't work well with the poptop, and if you proceed with your lifted headroom idea, you'll likely end up with too little distance between boom and traveler. Add to that the loss of mechanical advantage of another 2-3 feet forward, extra stresses on the boom etc etc.

good point. and i am definately doing the permanent coach roof. i can lift it 10" and it will look good. i checked it out, today, to be sure. and i would have more than enough head room. i'm already tired of walking bent over, inside.

Have you tried any of the Cal owners' group sites? There should be some first hand knowledge specific to these boats there.

you know, i have posted on a cal forum. i got one response. not a very helpful one, either, and it took a long time for that response. here, although only Michael has the same boat, i have gotten tons of advice and help. guess that says something about the quality of the folks, here

hey, i have a question about hatches. the forward hatch is FG. it's not see through and it's not a gasket seal. it locks tight but it wouldn't be really water tight, like some of the hatches you see.

i'd like to have one that is see through, for the extra interior light. i, also, would like it to seal. i was thinking i could cut out the center and glass in some plexiglass or lexan, then add rubber gasket on the inside. but, i was wondering if i could replace it with a new hatch. i'm not sure a new hatch would work with the lip that is built into the hull for this hatch. most of the hatches, you see, are flush. do you know anything about that sort of thing?

 

Please don't move the traveller. It MAY be doable, but it very well could compromise the boom. Going to a cabin top traveller increases the sheet loads massively, and if the boom isn't strong enough to handle the loads can cause it to snap in half. It also may result in the traveller and associated blocks not being strong enough to handle the loads.

Just some rough guesses on numbers....

The Cal 27 has an E of 10.25' so the mainsheet is probably attached at around 10' from the mast. Assuming this in 20kn of breeze your mainsheet load would be in the 475lbs range. If you move the traveler to 4' behind the mast instead those loads jump to 1,200lbs.

It is possible to make this type of move, but it takes more than just shifting some deck gear around (though going the other way is easy).

 

Please don't move the traveller. It MAY be doable, but it very well could compromise the boom. Going to a cabin top traveller increases the sheet loads massively, and if the boom isn't strong enough to handle the loads can cause it to snap in half. It also may result in the traveller and associated blocks not being strong enough to handle the loads.

Just some rough guesses on numbers....

The Cal 27 has an E of 10.25' so the mainsheet is probably attached at around 10' from the mast. Assuming this in 20kn of breeze your mainsheet load would be in the 475lbs range. If you move the traveler to 4' behind the mast instead those loads jump to 1,200lbs.

It is possible to make this type of move, but it takes more than just shifting some deck gear around (though going the other way is easy).

actually, it's going to be 10' from the mast, on a bail. right now, it's directly on the end of the boom, held by a piece of relatively thin bar stock. so thin that i'd almost call it a think strip of sheet metal. i take that back, if it had a seet/blocks, that's the mounting point they'd have.

i do not like that. it's the same set up you see on a furling type boom. the boom does, in fact, rotate freely; something i may have to deal with when i install the boomkicker.

i wasn't going t move it til i have sailed it, anyway, but Faster already warned me about the coach roof being too close to the mast. as an outboard version, it would have had the traveler by the companionway door. of course, it wasn't designed to be an outboard version.

to be honest, i have always dsailed boats with the sheet at the end of the boom. i am used to it. i wasn't thinking about changing it, originally. discussion, here, brought the idea to my attention. however, i hadn't come to any decision on it, just toying with the idea, really.

in other news....i found that thread, about the hatch, and, seeing how the hatch was originally designed, i am going to do it asFaster suggested. now, the question is: clear or tinted? acrylic or lexan?

 

Here is the one that came with my boat. it has a quick release cord hanging I can turn it into a Vang with a throw of the switch.
I have grown to love it. I still have the topping lift attached as you can see in the photo. I have not taken it down because its wire and mounted to the mast with 1/4 machine screws. Next time I go up I will take it off.

"The vang is a latching boom support.. it has an internal tackle (very powerful.. something like 16:1) The sliding knob with the orange/green under is the support latch. If the knob is in the orange zone it's a boom crutch/support and will not allow the boom to drop. Slide the knob to the green and it's a vang. If you're leaving it in the orange zone that's part of your problem."
FASTER

 

nice. what's the cost?

 

Jack, I don't believe those are made by Spinlock anymore.. I have one too, and have had some trouble with the internal tackle. One of these could come up on the various for sale sites used, I suppose, but I think for what you want the boomkicker would be better.. it's more 'automatic'...

Re boom gallows... not really 'apropos' on a Cal 27, don't think

 

You could build a BOOM GALLOWS.

 

Re: Boom Gallows. Why not 'apropos' as you said ? Do you mean the appearance
or the design and fit on a Cal 27 ? (I am not that familiar with his boat) If it works for him it would /could be the Cheapest route.
He can make it fancy or not. 2x4s or teak & glitter
..."Practical Sailor" mag has article Boom G for long booms and more modern short booms.
With drawings...http://www.practical-sailor.com/marine/Boom-Gallows-10484-1.html
...................

 

Re: Boom Gallows. Why not 'apropos' as you said ? Do you mean the appearance...................

Sidney.. yes, I was mainly thinking of the appearance, boom gallows are more typically seen on what most would consider 'blue water' boats.. rarely on smaller coastal cruisers.. (though today's 'arches' come close, I suppose)

A boom gallows doesn't address the sail trim issues that the boomkicker or an adjustable topping lift can do.. and even during a reef these two items would deal with boom support better than a fixed position gallows, IMO...

However it's not as if Jack will be jeopardizing a large investment, he's already planning to make the boat very non-standard so maybe that option will appeal.