SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!
21 - 40 of 40 Posts
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

I didn't say the term bothers ME. For months, I've seen a lot of nice people who frequent this forum who have taken offense to the use of the term. Even though the term doesn't bother me, I think their objections are understandable, but their objections keep falling on deaf ears. People who are unresponsive to the moods and feelings of others are, by definition, insensitive. I'm just asking the question out loud, "Why would anyone persist in saying something that they know to be offensive to a lot of nice people?"
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

ok back to bumfuzzle ..lol

I aplaud their "balls" to go out and "do it" instead of me dreaming it. They seem to be nice folks and certainly have written nice emails back and forth to the wildcat crew ...

3 years back I was with my wife in Annapolis at the show. Lookin at Cats for our "dream" It just might be that I have been in that exaclty wildcat they have now. Neiter me nor my wife was very happy with the construction quality we could see " walking" through the boat. But the stories we heard let us believe that the wildcat is excellent for long term cruising, very safe and overbuilt.. If the folks got the same story, than nobody can say that they didnt do their homework....

As for the surveyor... I think 500 dlrs is a lot of money, therefore I would suspect that the surveyor would have found delamination , especially THAT MUCH of it. Besides the water in the keels should have given a huge reading while checkin for osmosis.... Than the surveyor says: I dont like those cats,..... If he really dont like them, why doesnt he check them more dilligent than the ones he likes ??? ( Obviously he does know something about them in order to dislike the builder ) After all he signed the survey and found the boat in good order ...???? Cant blame the bummfuzzzles for not doing the right thing .
......
Of course its disheartening that these guys have a ball and living the dream, while at the same time they dont know how to tie a bowline...lol ...

Back to Wildcat. I didnt like the boat on the show, because of lacking quality ( I hope I dont get a letter from them now ) ANd I sure dont like it after I read all the ANSWERS from them in regards of their sloppy work.

You go guys and keep the itinery coming its refreshing ... and if you need somebody to make a bowline I am ready just email me ...

Thorsten

p.s. It doesnt seem that the two are too strapped for money , it would have been SOOO easy to come to a fair agreement between them and the builder .... Wildcat screwed them and in the process themselves .
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

ok back to bumfuzzle ..lol

I aplaud their "balls" to go out and "do it" instead of me dreaming it. They seem to be nice folks and certainly have written nice emails back and forth to the wildcat crew ...

3 years back I was with my wife in Annapolis at the show. Lookin at Cats for our "dream" It just might be that I have been in that exaclty wildcat they have now. Neiter me nor my wife was very happy with the construction quality we could see " walking" through the boat. But the stories we heard let us believe that the wildcat is excellent for long term cruising, very safe and overbuilt.. If the folks got the same story, than nobody can say that they didnt do their homework....

As for the surveyor... I think 500 dlrs is a lot of money, therefore I would suspect that the surveyor would have found delamination , especially THAT MUCH of it. Besides the water in the keels should have given a huge reading while checkin for osmosis.... Than the surveyor says: I dont like those cats,..... If he really dont like them, why doesnt he check them more dilligent than the ones he likes ??? ( Obviously he does know something about them in order to dislike the builder ) After all he signed the survey and found the boat in good order ...???? Cant blame the bummfuzzzles for not doing the right thing .
......
Of course its disheartening that these guys have a ball and living the dream, while at the same time they dont know how to tie a bowline...lol ...

Back to Wildcat. I didnt like the boat on the show, because of lacking quality ( I hope I dont get a letter from them now ) ANd I sure dont like it after I read all the ANSWERS from them in regards of their sloppy work.

You go guys and keep the itinery coming its refreshing ... and if you need somebody to make a bowline I am ready just email me ...

Thorsten

p.s. It doesnt seem that the two are too strapped for money , it would have been SOOO easy to come to a fair agreement between them and the builder .... Wildcat screwed them and in the process themselves .
 
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

OK, I am insensitive, opinionated and a number of other things I''d care not to mention. That is the way I am. I don''t suffer fools lightly, either.

I am also horrified by our litigous society here in the states, always looking for other people to blame for our shortsightedness. Yes there are people who were wronged in this world, and those few should be compensated for it. Hundreds of thousands of dollars for hot coffee spilled in your lap? Awe, come on...

If people spent less time worrying about being politically correct, and more time worrying about things that matter, maybe we could get somewhere.

I don''t give a damn who''s feelings I hurt. I just don''t want to have to pay for it when some fool pushes the envelope way beyond practicality. How do I pay? By the higher insurance premiums I have to pay.

I have not had a car accedent in over 30 years, I have not had a "boating incedent" in all my years of ownership. Not ONE!!!! I am a cautious person by nature, but I am by no means a wimp. Funny thing is, when I raced cars, I never had a costly wreck, either, yet placed highly in all events I participated in. I always knew the limits of my equipment, always competed with everything in top condition.

I suppose all the hurt BHLB owners are looking to sue me for their potential shame the wrongly feel. No shame in the boat you own. You are on the water, sailing, and capturing those fleeting moments of oneness with nature and the ocean. Bravo! But PLEASE know the limits of your knowledge and don''t expect others to pay for your ignorance.

In boating, there is the phrase "More money than brains". As I said earlier, I admire the moxie of the Bumfuzzle crew. But geeze, how about starting out with more modest goals, building a good base of knowledge, building on that, and THEN taking it to the next level.

This whole instant gratification thing is getting out of hand. It actually takes work to achieve things in life, not just an endless bankroll. The "V Tailed Dr. Killer" comes to mind. (But DAMN those Mooney''s look sweet)
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

Silmaril, right on!!!
I also admire their moxie and the fact that they are out sailing while I''m still earning and learning to go but...
There are already places where insurance or a guaranteed sum is required just to go legally. The main reason is ill-prepared sailors entering these areas then hitting the panic button to have their asses saved.
This will only get worse as systems improve allowing larger boats to sail w/ smaller crews. Fine when things go well but bigger problems when things go wrong. Thats o.k. Improved comunications means help is a call away. Fleeting are the days when a good captain was reserved to drown like a gentleman if this fickle mistress deemed his efforts and equiptment unworthy. I''m not saying a vessel in distress should not call out but I have read so many stories of gps failures or lumpy seas resulting in a call to the Coast Guard. Mandatory auto insurance. How long before we see this happen w/ boats? Don''t think it can happen? You better wake up and see the real world.
If a section of the population imposes too heavily on another there will be repercusions. Throwing caution to the wind is cool if you are ready to take resposibility for what the wind blows back, and it will. I wish the crew of Bumfuzzle the best of luck as that seems to be mostly what they are sailing on.
fair winds to all
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

I dont get it folks ..

They are NOT suing anybody ( I would sue the manufacturer of the boat, after all he is selling a 5 year warranty with it )

They are NOT in distress and do not need help from any of those "correct" cruisers, although they are thankful of all advice given ... so whats the problem

I can see a little bitterness here, from all the armchair circumnavigators who of course know everything and would go well prepared and knowledgeable of all anchorages and so forth ... Point is with a very few exceptions ( I think Whoooosh is actually on a boat in europe ) we are sitting here at work and are jealous ...

while bumfuzzle has a great time...

I dont have that kind of dough to make it, even if I would live the "regular" cruissing lifestyle, but that doesnt mean i have to diss the folks ...

Thorsten
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

Ittykitty I can''t get www.bumfuzzle any longer either, can someone else block anothers webs site? is the tinfoil hat meaning dashit may have hit the fan for what they were posting aout the manufactorer?
 
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

Yeah that''s what my inner Oliver Stone was suggesting.

I did some further digging and their entire DNS record has been wiped out. Again not sure what the deal is. I''ve emailed Pat and Ali and will let you know if I hear something.
 
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

Just a short observation that hasn''t already been made: The easy part of Pat & Ali''s intended Circle is just about finished. Given their limited effort & success in mastering sailing and the complexities of their boat, I''m hopeful that by the time they reach the Coral Coast, they will begin to hear enough about what lies ahead to wonder about the rest of the passage. The Coconut Milk Run is almost over, and there seems good reason to suspect that neither they nor their boat would be suitable for a run around a great southern cape or the Red Sea. They seem like nice kids and not deserving of that kind of ''adventure''.

Jack
 
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

I tend to side with the owner on this one.

Firstly, Charter Cats was, to put it very politely, extremely lethargic and sloppy about addressing some serious problems with a very new boat which they had manufactured.

As posted, the chronology of the Charter Cat email responses spans months, it is rife with lack of follow-up, poor internal communication and a seemingly wilful inablility to address the problems in a concise, logical and professional manner. They also seek to excuse their tardiness with bizarre explanations (he hasn''t seen it / our email is down / they''re at a boat show abroad / the exchange rate sucks) - apparently the only one they missed was the dog eating their email server. Though the dog excuse may be their ace in the hole.

Even I, by casually parsing the correspondence, have a pretty good grasp of what the owners are trying to convey:

1. It is a 2 1/2 year old boat which they''ve owned for about a year and a half.

2. It was surveyed in Florida, without defects being discovered at the time of survey which was about 1 year after the manufacture date.

3. Problems became apparent in Panama, and critical in NZ some few months later. So critical that it required repairs in order for them to feel comfortable to continue their voyage.

4. CC apparently has a warranty programme which shouldn''t preclude a second (or third) owner of a fairly new boat from follow-up service. Warranties usually accrue to the product not the owner.

5. And, I don''t recall anything in the owners correspondence suggesting it had been struck by lightening. And presumably, the previous owner would have had an insurance claim if that were the case. Not to mention a bit of charred glass somewhere on the boat.

In my opinion Charter Cats actions should have been first and foremost to be prompt, attentive and timely in their response.

They failed abjectly on that count.

To my thinking, a conscientious builder would have undertaken the following actions:

1. A timely response which identifies the person in the company who will be responsible for following up. And, in this era of email, being at a boat show in Miami or wherever, doesn''t excuse not making a timely response to a customer.

2. Upon ascertaining the location of the vessel, the original surveryors comments and the owners assessment of the problem, Charter Cats should have proposed a course of action. Which, IMHO, would be to nominate a local surveyor (and other experts as required) to inspect the boat.

3. And based upon those findings, a course of remedial works and compensation should be agreed upon. Or not, in which case there''s at least ground work for a negotiated settlement.

In fact, it looks like CC simply pushed the issue to the back burner, despite the owners correspondence - over months - indicating that they needed to proceed with remedial works. When the final bill was tallied, CC seemed to conjure up a lightening strike out of thin air (is if it were ever any other way) as a straw man argument to walk away from the problem. They even "wrote off" their own product for insurance purposes without ever obtaining an independent assessment of the problem - how professional is that?

The owner was naive in not seeking an independent assessment before commencing remedial works - but - as the builder and expert in these matters, CC should have had a very quick and logical response to the owners very valid concerns. And a suggested course of action for the owner to follow.

Instead, CC let events take their course rather than steer their own ship as it were. And their subsequent "lightening strike" theory makes them look like a bunch of weasels. And not terribly clever weasels to boot.

Much has been said concerning the owners inexperience and naivete in regards sailing. But, in my opinion, that is not germain to the issue of a builder refusing to stand behind his product.

Flaws in workmanship happen, but what defines a great boat builder is how they act to rectify their mistakes.

And hands up, how many out there would ever consider buying a Charter Cat after reading this sorry saga?
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

Not I, If I drop up to a quarter of million dollars on a product I don''t want to hear excuses after asking the same question 10x. Unfortunately the company probably won''t suffer severe sale loss due to this. But they won''t ever see a sale from these pockets ever. To boot I wouldn''t mind stopping by the booth next boat show (maybe Annapolis in Oct) to mention to them that they build a bueatiful looking product to bad they don''t stand behind it. The one thing I couldn''t get over is they do have a waruantee and numerous times they stated well it''s almost 3yrs old? As if the waruantee is pro-rated based on close to the end it is? Unprofessional to say the least.
 
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

As someone new to this discussion who is also researching cats, I have a couple of observations.

One, the Bumfuzzles are certainly not risk-averse, which has some appeal for adventure, but I wouldn''t crew for them.

Two, from looking at their most recent posting (engine overheating, which was not detected due to the temp sensor not being connected, thus leading to, at the least, a cracked block if not a completely thrashed engine), it is apparent that they aren''t doing routine inspections or they don''t know what they should be inspecting. The disconnected sensor should have been caught a long time ago. While it might not have prevented the first overheating, it might have prevented it from going to the point of the loss of the engine.

Three, Charter Cats'' response to the hull problem shows us what sort of company they are. While their Jaguar 36 at least caught my eye for consideration, they are now definitely off my short list. If their response to the Bumfuzzles cost them only three sales, assuming a 10% profit on a $300K boat, their unwillingness to do the right thing (which might have cost them $20K), has cost them $90K in profit. Of course, since lots of potential buyers browse the ''net and forums like this, the true costs to the company may end up being much more.

Richard
 
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

I''ve also read the logs, and the most recent reports that their engine may need $5,000 in repairs. I''d like to cruise, but I doubt I could plan so much financial latitude into the trip.

At the risk of sounding obvious, I''d be tempted to think the following:

1)Multiple-year cost containment plans may be critical to boat and equipment choice.

2)An older boat, most likely a monohull, with more of a "history" of cruising may be a safer bet that something one year old but untested.

3) Not being able to maintain and field-strip your engine sounds like a recipe for disaster.

4) Having simplier systems (larger, well- maintained tanks instead of a water maker) seems a safer bet in terms of cost containment.

5) Starting with a smaller boat (perhaps with a diesel), for several years of coastal cruising, could be a solid investment in experience.

One last thing I don''t understand-- why the move to larger boats overall for crusing? I understand that living aboard for several years may really lead to the desire for refrigeration, water makers, pressurized hot water showers, better lighting systems, etc. However, it seems like the expense and complexity could really cut into the reasons for being crusing to begin with.
 
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

PDX...in answer to your last question about the move to larger boats. Many of us go cruising to enjoy other people and places but have no desire to go "camping". Our boats are our homes and we want to be comfortable and not have to forego "luxuries" like cold drinks, hot showers and even the internet! You are correct in stating that every new complexity costs money and results in more potential breakdowns and we need to weigh each addition to our boats in light of this. We also like to have guests join us so need space for them and storage for our personal items. As bigger boats have become easier to handle shorthanded over the years it has become possible to have all of this and I believe this is one of the resasons so many more people are out cruising today...unlike the dedicated minimalists who led the way years ago and who still populate many anchorages. In short...now there is a choice!
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

Hi - this is my first post as the weather is too crap to sail today. I can''t believe all the yacking that goes on in this board about their boat!! Me and my wife are also young in our late 20''s and are in the 1st year of our circumnavigation. My wife had never sailed and I have some experience and we have managed. The schionning designed Wildcat is not a bad boat for a circumnavigation and @ 35 ft is a good compromise. All boats are compromises - after all ours is a steel 38 footer bullet proof but slow. The Wildcat has the ability to maintain a higher speed and thus has the ability to avoid storms where as we are forced to run or punch our way through them. I have personally sailed a simular sized cat over the Tasman Sea in 7 metre seas and 55 knots of wind without any problems - we just set the sea anchor and went to bed. I think some of you guys in here need to get a life and actually start a circumnavigation - it takes balls - especially if you are new to the game
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

Hi - this is my first post as the weather is too crap to sail today. I can''t believe all the yacking that goes on in this board about their boat!! Me and my wife are also young in our late 20''s and are in the 1st year of our circumnavigation. My wife had never sailed and I have some experience and we have managed. The schionning designed Wildcat is not a bad boat for a circumnavigation and @ 35 ft is a good compromise. All boats are compromises - after all ours is a steel 38 footer bullet proof but slow. The Wildcat has the ability to maintain a higher speed and thus has the ability to avoid storms where as we are forced to run or punch our way through them. I have personally sailed a simular sized cat over the Tasman Sea in 7 metre seas and 55 knots of wind without any problems - we just set the sea anchor and went to bed. I think some of you guys in here need to get a life and actually start a circumnavigation - it takes balls - especially if you are new to the game - also we also enjoy our beer and mackers burgers!
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?

Hi - this is my first post as the weather is too crap to sail today. I can''t believe all the yacking that goes on in this board about their boat!! Me and my wife are also young in our late 20''s and are in the 1st year of our circumnavigation. My wife had never sailed and I have some experience and we have managed. The schionning designed Wildcat is not a bad boat for a circumnavigation and @ 35 ft is a good compromise. All boats are compromises - after all ours is a steel 38 footer bullet proof but slow. The Wildcat has the ability to maintain a higher speed and thus has the ability to avoid storms where as we are forced to run or punch our way through them. I have personally sailed a simular sized cat over the Tasman Sea in 7 metre seas and 55 knots of wind without any problems - we just set the sea anchor and went to bed. I think some of you guys in here need to get a life and actually start a circumnavigation - it takes balls - especially if you are new to the game - also we also enjoy our beer and mackers burgers!
 
21 - 40 of 40 Posts