Just my two cents and yes I have learned CN is that a sextant is not an essential bit of kit to have on board any more. Even in the unlikely event, that all GPS system on board fail, the boat is not going to sink because of it and you are not going to die just because you are now left with DR and a compass, pilot charts and a log. Chances are that you are going to get to shore, maybe not in the exact place you wanted, but you are going to run out of water at some point.
I am not trying to discourage anyone from learning or using a sextant. I think that it is good to keep these traditional skills alive and still like to lite a camp fire with a bit of tinder and a few sparks as well but on a day to day basis I find using a lighter just more convenient.
Then there is the argument I sometime hear, that in some places a GPS fix is out by up to 2 miles because the time the area has been charted, it was done by CN. That does not mean, that I am going to be more accurate with a sextant in those areas by adding my mistakes to the ones the folks made when they drew the charts of those places. So I rather be a mile or two out using GPS then 5 or ten using a sextant.

Just my two cents worth.

Michael

 

Yes there is going to be the odd black spot here and there, but they are going to get it sorted out because the military depends on the system. even with the odd black out, GPS is still going to be more dependable then CN on a cloudy or clear day for that matter.

 

I'd stick with having no time constraints or deadlines, and heaving to well offshore while waiting for the right conditions, over relying on any electronic devices.

I'm old fashioned though, and my boat heaves to very well...

 

I would never enter an unfamiliar harbour at night or in restricted visibility.

+1

Words to live by, literally.

 

Probbly the best lesson I have taken from all the fine sailers here at SN is thissin " RULE 62 " lesson after all once looked at in the light it was just plain common sence ...Yes there is everything in the world going on to persuade you to a different answer but fall back on rule #1 = keep your cool and do the right thing ! Thank you RULE 62 & crew & Sailnet!

That said my brain tells me you crawl before you walk,,,I just bought a damn good watch for CN in future now looking for what everyone thinks is the best "accurate" with in reason of the watchs abilitys 2 sec per month..

I was thinking getting a "used" Mark 25 Davis Sextant and getting a new mirror for it ...make since ??? if not hammer away plz...

 

Quote:
I would never enter an unfamiliar harbour at night or in restricted visibility. Quote:

When I was working commercially, this is what I've had to do many times.
It got to the point that every time I'm entering a new port it is always dark thirty or thick fog. Was sucessful every time. Mainly due to the fact that I read Coast Pilot for that port and studied the charts carefully. Time contrains and company expectations were the main reasons. But I've been sailing Commercially since Feb. '79 after retiring from the Navy Jan. '79 after 21 years as a Boatswain's Mate. So you could say that I've had a tad amount of sea time.

NO I don't recommend a boat skipper who goes sailing as a hobby to try this. The reason is the high pucker power down south on your body.....

 

Large commercial ships tend to have a bit more power and deal with heavier seas a good deal better than a small recreational sailboat. They also are generally better crewed.

Quote:
I would never enter an unfamiliar harbour at night or in restricted visibility. Quote:

When I was working commercially, this is what I've had to do many times.
It got to the point that every time I'm entering a new port it is always dark thirty or thick fog. Was sucessful every time. Mainly due to the fact that I read Coast Pilot for that port and studied the charts carefully. Time contrains and company expectations were the main reasons. But I've been sailing Commercially since Feb. '79 after retiring from the Navy Jan. '79 after 21 years as a Boatswain's Mate. So you could say that I've had a tad amount of sea time.

NO I don't recommend a boat skipper who goes sailing as a hobby to try this. The reason is the high pucker power down south on your body.....

 

If I never entered an unfamiliar harbor or inlet at night I would have spent most of my life at sea waiting around for better weather and daylight. My first trip through Oregon and Hatteras inlets were damned well frightening--both are nothing more than slots in the surf. I've been through both several times since, and while it's always a bit exhilarating, there has only been a few times that I opted to remain a few miles offshore until the tide slacked. The wind never seems to slack at the Outer Banks, though.

Good Luck,

Gary

 

If you do not think the mimitary messes with your signal,

FAA warns of ongoing GPS issues in southeastern US due to Defense Department 'tests' -- Engadget

What are our chart-plotter friends going to do?:laugher
mark

 

These tests have been going on since GPS became available. While they can last up to 45 minutes, most of the time the test lasts less than 5 minutes, and very few people seem to have noticed. Aircraft using GPS have lots of backup systems, including transponders, which are linked to ground radar control systems. To my knowledge the tests are never conducted at night, and most occur in the middle of the day in the middle of the week, times when most boaters are too busy watching the horizon.

Rarely, even in war zones, is there a complete outage of GPS. Granted the accuracy isn't pin-point, but it ain't 20-miles off! Now, I don't know about most folks on this form, but I'm going to avoid war zones and other locations where I would put myself or others in harms way. If you want to sail the Somalia Coast using your sextant, knock yourself out. I'll stick to the sunny shores of the U.S. and countries where sailing is fun--not a life-threatening challenge of everyday life.

Good Luck,

Gary

 

And another example of the increased reliance on technology being 100% accurate and not using the ol' common sense noggin...

LINK

 

You can't fix STUPID.

 

Lets see now--should we blame the GPS? Or, should we blame the idiot that was so stupid that she drove into Death Valley during the height of summer (120 degrees f) with a 6-year-old kid, and wasn't smart enough to carry food, water, etc.., which is posted on signs everywhere you drive in this area?

Blame the GPS, of course. Now you can bring a class action suit against the manufacturer, and sue them for millions. Whoops, better also sue the USGS for not updating the maps and telling everyone that road was closed. (She probably didn't read that sign either.) What the Hell was on her mind. Driving alone with a a 6-year-old kid, in the middle of the nation's largest,hottest desert just isn't real smart.

My long deceased father had some pretty neat sayings that I would like to pass along. "The average person is well below average." And, "Common sense isn't very damned common these days."

Ironically, the idiot that wrote that story had to search long and hard to come up with this one. There are probably 50-million people using GPS systems every day without encountering a problem. He managed to find one and tried to make a front-page story out of it. I guess he was looking for some sort of blood and guts sensationalism type of story that was really unique, instead of the regular, daily blood and guts stories like car wrecks, homicides, wars, rapes, floods, earthquakes, volcano eruptions, plane crashes, etc...

Cheers,

Gary

 

I say (and will myself) use a combination of GPS and traditional navigation techniques (celestial) once we get underway next fall.

I think as long as you have the know how to back up your high tech with "low" tech in a pinch, and verify both against each other, you're all good.

I really look forward to using celestial navigation though

 

The case that the "idiot author" of that article is trying to make is that unskilled people who encounter technology tend to believe it makes them more skilled than they really are (i.e. more than native skill + skill through technology). This happens because the technology gives them access to activities they once thought (correctly) were out of their reach.

In any case I don't see the "idiot author" anywhere actually blaming the GPS, or making any sort of annoying calls for legislative action to protect us from technology or ourselves, though I only glanced through the article. It seems like more of a "I see this disturbing trend in my society, just thought I'd letcha all know," article.

 

First and foremost, look at the article's title "Death By GPS in Desert," thus leading the reader to immediately assume the GPS was the cause of death--not stupidity. Next, some of the sub-titles add to the headline "Not All GPS Units Reliable," a statement that is not really as accurate as the GPS units themselves. Most GPS units are extremely reliable, but like computers, they only do what you tell them to do.

GPS units are no more complex than a cellular telephone that has all the bells and whistles. The problem is that most people don't take the time to read the instruction manuals that come with them. Of course, some people cannot read at all, or they're just too damned lazy to read the manual, then wonder why something doesn't work the way they want it to work. Hmmmmm! Kinda like trying to use a sextant without first reading the book and learning how to use it. Imagine that!

Gary

 

Doesn't matter if you know how to use the GPS and if you know its limitations. If you have lived a life where you put your trust in technology without thinking twice, then you'll drive off into the desert, trusting your GPS to make it a safe thing for you to do. In fact I would bet that even if the manual said "CAUTION: DO NOT DRIVE OFF INTO THE DESERT RELYING SOLELY ON YOUR GPS UNLESS YOU HAVE WILDERNESS SURVIVAL EXPERIENCE", and even if the woman had read the instructions carefully, she still would have made the decisions she did.

It's the black-box nature of GPS and all sorts of technology. If I can press a button and get a result, then I am unstoppable. I don't see the type of person who puts all their faith in a magical black box to be the type to rely on a sextant for navigation, so statistically it will come up less often. A sextant makes a terrible black box since you must be intimately familiar with its workings in order to use it. A person who is not accustomed to dependence on black-box type devices is more likely to carefully plan their activities, consider contingencies, etc.

So while "Death By GPS" may be a bit sensationalist, the author is really getting at a behavioral trend in humans that is permitted by black box technology. Is it a reason for hardened cruisers to avoid GPS? Probably not. Is it a reason for society in general to think twice about grabbing every gadget they can? I would probably have to agree.

 

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree that the woman in the story probably wouldn't have gone to Death Valley had she not had the GPS. So, in that sense, the GPS did cause her death. However, the real cause of her daughter's death was the mother's complete stupidity about a very hostile and dangerous environment.

The same thing has happened to sailors with GPS...and those that relied on its "accuracy and infallibility" and gotten into trouble because they didn't understand the basic environment that they were in-the ocean. Rule 62 is a good example of this.

 

Some time ago I posted a story about an elderly couple who drove down an unplowed road in the winter and got stuck. They survived.

There is also a story about a yacht using a GPS that hit a charted reef in Australia.

SD - you could make a fortune selling Mark I eyeballs.

 

Unfortunately, using Mark I eyeballs requires a modicum of common sense and intelligence to work... and that's become pretty rare.

 

Geez, there you go with that common sense thingy again--ain't it amazin'!

Gary

 

Common sense seems to be an all to uncommon. Not long ago we heard someone hailing the CG. We switched up to 22A to ease-drop on the ensuing conversation which involved a concerned boater that wanted to let the CG know that, according to his GPS, they had put the outer marker at the mouth of the Manatee River in the wrong place! The CG watch stander patiently thanked him for the tip.

FWIW...

 

Actually; Mark I eyeballs come as a set with a Working Brain.
I believe that the key word there is "Working".

 

Heehehehehehe so eloquently put Boasun ....

 

Sextant Choice

I am not sure if this is the right place to ask, but do any of you have experience with the Freiberger Yacht Sextant or the ASTRA III B sextant. I realize the the Freiberger is smaller and somewhat more expensive but it is not from China, (products from which I prefer not to buy). Any thought about the quality and functionality of these. Thanks

 

I am not sure if this is the right place to ask, but do any of you have experience with the Freiberger Yacht Sextant or the ASTRA III B sextant. I realize the the Freiberger is smaller and somewhat more expensive but it is not from China, (products from which I prefer not to buy). Any thought about the quality and functionality of these. Thanks

The Freiberger is smaller, better built, nicer materials, but IIRC, not made anymore. It is also usually more expensive than a new ASTRA III B sextant, which is a current model and has parts easily available.

I'd imagine the accuracy and functionality is mostly dependent on the design, and an older Freiberger may not be as accurate, especially if it is a vernier rather than a micrometer drum design, and may not be as functional.

 

Sorry if this has already been asked... but didn't read the full 15 pages of posts... although I should.. LOL

Was thinking about picking up a platic training sextant.... what are your thoughts on it for training and possible usage in the lifeboat afterwards. Is it worth the money?

 

Provided you check the sextant very carefully for alignment and such to minimize errors related to those problems and make sure the sextant hasn't warped. Don't leave plastic sextants out in the sun, as Tania Aebi can tell you.

 

A plastic sextant is better than nada. So go for it.