Hi all,

I have a question I was hoping folks could chime in on though: like the subject says, what comes next when a reefed main and the smallest headsail you have are still overpowered? Obviously we have to drop a sail, but I'm wondering which one is recommended and why?

SO: drop the main or drop the jib? One or the other depending on point of sail, or always stick with one or the other regardless of wind direction? And why?

Joe

Sailing downwind (>130deg off) on modern boats e.g Beneteau 47, Bavaria 49 in winds above 25-30kt I usually do without the main. I reduce the genoa area to maintain the log speed of max 8 kt (GPS shows up to 10kt).

Sailing upwind in those conditions is minimum jib (even 30sq ft) just to keep the balance and deeply reefed main.

My general rule of reducing the sails:

1. Keep heeling reasonable.
Reduce both sails appropriately to avoid more than 25-30 degrees heel.

2. Keep the boat self-steering (balanced between lee and windward) by trimming both sails and balancing sail area. Jib/forward sails generally have a lee effect and the main/mizzen windward effect.

Waves affect that balance of course. Seaworthy boat should stay, in my opinion, balanced on course (almost no work needed at helm) on 4-5ft waves.

Hope it gives some insight.

Grendler

 

If I'm heading downwind and getting overpowered I would generally drop the main and rely on a partially furled genoa, or a smaller jib flying off a inner forestay. Most yachts would be better balanced heading downwind with a jib / genoa.

For reaching I would generally drop the jib / genoa and rely on a reefed main.

For heading upwind it really depends on the yacht. To make meaningful progress to weather a lot of yachts would require a balanced rig ie the main and jib areas are proportionally reduced as you reef. However you really need to get out in windy conditions and work out what works best for your yacht.

Ilenart

 

I suspect that a C27 will go to weather better with just a jib than with just a main, however you'll need to be vigilant because you'll likely have lee helm. Off the wind we generally used main only as it's a much more stable sail. If it's too windy to gybe comfortably then we would 'chicken gybe'.. ie go the long way around in a 270 degree 'tack'.

I think part of the solution to your issue, though, is getting used to the idea of heeling and realizing that 15 degrees or more is quite normal, esp in a bit of breeze.

Keep practicing.. you'll get there!

 

If downwind you could of course go with just the small jib in most wind. To weather I agree that you need some main to balance the boat.

 

Along with all the other good posts, when reefed and still overpowered when going upwind open the traveller on the mainsail but not too much so that the boat does not develop a lee helm. Use the traveller to 'spill' wind (especially in gusts) and to keep the helm pressure correct -- very slight 'weather helm' so that the boat 'rounds up slowly' when overpowered. Use and constantly adjust the traveller to keep the boat at an equal heel angle --- if possible.

When reefed, and especially with a mainsail made from woven dacron apply a lot of tension on the mainsail halyard .... will force the point of maximum craft in the main to move forward and will 'open' the leech .... so that the leech section of the sail becomes flat and with essentially no camber. If the halyard tension is not set with this additional tension, the sail when hit by a gust will 'power-up'; and the point of maximum draft will move aft causing more heeling.

How to properly raise a woven dacron mainsail: How to properly RAISE a woven dacron mainsail - SailboatOwners.com

Simple answer, have a sailmaker add a deeper (second) set of reef points into the mainsail

 

My boat is similar in size etc as your C27, I find a 110 in upper winds is just fine. In fact, we've sailed on race with a 140 only after the slugs on the main broke in winds in the lower 20's, no adverse helm. I find a reefed or full main only with my boat is harder to handle than a main only. I've gone from Edmonds to Kingston in 20 to 30 knot winds with a 110 only did fine! better than a main about the same Sq footage, or reefed. 110 is 230'ish on my boat, main 195.

Another I would like to point out. Last fall after 4-5 yrs of "THINKING" I had tuned the rig up, I sent a person up the mast, made sure all four spreaders were equal distance to the deck, the mast was centered at the top, and both levels of spreaders, and my weather helm was calmed considerably!

I've also toyed with getting a smaller ib in the 80% of foretriangle area too. If you do not have a 2nd reef, you may want to include that in the mod plans for the current main, or if older and blown out, have two with the new main. About $250-350 or so for a sail our sizes to add install a reef. North or Ullman in Seattle are great to work with.

 

I sail a C27 with a hank-on 150 and 2-reef main (kind of). I'm honestly surprised to hear about your lee helm with both sails up. Even with the 150 in 25 knots I've never experienced significant lee helm on my boat. It's been great. And our C27 points like a mofo...we even out-pointed a Bene First 30! Check it!

I agree with the guys above on heading downwind using the jib only. That's worked well for us. But I've had great luck beating into big wind with just a reefed down main (no jib). Here's a pic from a day we were having 30+ with gusts to 40:

We were under double-reefed main only on a beam reach here, then beat up into it to our marina. We had to really work the mainsheet with the gusts, but we never experienced lee helm. Of course, I'm still learning too - so take this all with a grain of salt.

We're lucky in this regard because we sail on a lake. So we can pretty safely get out in big winds and see what happens. And that's the key - keep at it in slightly more challenging conditions each time. You learn a TON!

BTW - when you DO dip that rail...post it in the BFS thread!

Welcome to SN dude.

 

We were under double-reefed main only on a beam reach here, then beat up into it to our marina. We had to really work the mainsheet with the gusts, but we never experienced lee helm. Of course, I'm still learning too - so take this all with a grain of salt.

Smacky,

Did I get this right - you were main only and are surprised you didn't have lee helm? I would expect you'd have significant weather helm without a jib to balance the main. Or did I misunderstand?
.

 

Excellent advice above.

Get your main as flat as you can--meaning haul in *really* hard on the jiffy reach outhaul/downhaul, and on the halyard too.

You'll need the vang downwind, but upwind ease it off so the sail luffs at the top first. Twist can help you here.

Same with the jib--slide the leads well back to open up the top, you'll still get pretty good drive from both sails, while easing the heeling forces some.

Beyond this, you'd need a storm trysail and storm jib, I guess, by which point most 27-footers (and especially their crews) would be much happier in port.

 

For smack

Smack,

From your pic it looks like your topping lift's a bit too tight. You might want to loosen that up a bit and you'll be able to flatten the main even more in those big winds you're so fond of.

Gary

 

Smack,

From your pic it looks like your topping lift's a bit too tight. You might want to loosen that up a bit and you'll be able to flatten the main even more in those big winds you're so fond of.

Gary

Cool! Thanks for the feedback imi. That TL is not rigged correctly at all so I have some work to do - and lots to learn on sail trim.

Nola - your summary is great. Time for some practice this weekend!

 

Wow, thanks for all the prompt replies guys! Looks like I'll have to do some experimenting... glad to see I was maybe on the right track about jib-only being fine downwind, with at least some main needed for balance upwind.

Tuning the rig is a good point - we got the boat in "ready to sail" condition, so to speak, had a pre-purchase survey done on it, but never had a rigger inspect it. So, aside from the assurances of the seller, we don't know much about how well tuned it might be. Probably something to have checked at some point, though I'm sure eliminating operator error is more meaningful for now. ;-)

I've been working on keeping the main flat in higher winds. We don't have a downhaul and only one set of reefing points (I think this is an older main), but I've really been cranking on the halyard tension and outhaul. (Thanks for that link RichH... good stuff.) One thing I haven't toyed with much is backstay tension - we do have one of those backstays that y's out above the helm, with the pulley tensioner contraption. I don't know how effective that may be on our masthead rig, but I see lots of them in the marina so I guess at least somewhat. Honestly I just keep forgetting to try it. Next time!

The traveler is something else I haven't played with much - this boat doesn't really have a quick adjustment for it. It has two separate blocks that slide separately on the rail and cam-lock down, so each adjustment means moving them both. Still, good idea to at least set something more reasonable than the middle. I'd swing it down to lee in higher wind right?

Point taken on getting used to heeling. It's more the people I'm usually sailing with than me, but extra caution isn't a bad thing for now. We're getting them there though... I need to get one of those stick-on bubble-level heel gauges so we know what we're actually seeing; hard for us to estimate with no experience.

Smack, cool pics... clearly this boat is pretty seaworthy in competent hands lol. Awesome pointing, I hardly see any angle at all! Since you're on the same boat, how far back do you move your jib leads in higher wind (110 jib)? Just in front of the winch, to the winch, behind the winch??

Thanks again guys...
Joe

 

Tuning the rig is a good point -

There's a good article on this site that will help you do that.

I've been working on keeping the main flat in higher winds. We don't have a downhaul and only one set of reefing points (I think this is an older main), but I've really been cranking on the halyard tension and outhaul. (Thanks for that link RichH... good stuff.) One thing I haven't toyed with much is backstay tension - we do have one of those backstays that y's out above the helm, with the pulley tensioner contraption. I don't know how effective that may be on our masthead rig, but I see lots of them in the marina so I guess at least somewhat. Honestly I just keep forgetting to try it. Next time!

The backstay will make a huge difference when you have the headsail up. Not so much under main only, but you should have it pretty cranked on in heavy air.

The traveler is something else I haven't played with much - this boat doesn't really have a quick adjustment for it. I'd swing it down to lee in higher wind right?

Yes, and change the hardware so it is quick adjusting. You'll use it more.

how far back do you move your jib leads in higher wind (110 jib)?

I move my 155 jib leads back about 1-2" in 12-15 kts depending on crew weight. The #3 I have (a 100%) doesn't get touched until we reef the main and it's steady over 25 true.

Where do you sail?

 

Thanks ZZ, all good advice. We sail on Puget Sound... well we will eventually lol. Right now we're practicing in a big deep inlet called Sinclair Inlet that our town is on. It's big enough to get some open wind, but we're never more than a mile from shore if things go really wrong. Soon we'll take the plunge on a nice day and head out Rich Passage into the open Sound.

 

See if you can't get a local sailnetter to come with you. One daysail of lesson's for free beer, should be enough to make up for weeks of trail and error! Good luck, and have fun.

 

You may be surprised what tightening your backstay will accomplish. Here is a helpful video on mast rake basics.

You may also just need to build your comfort level on the boat. Heeling is normal.

 

John, thanks for the video. Informative. I'm on a masthead boat, which he seems to think will not benefit from backstay tensioning, but I've seen other comments suggesting that it will, so who knows.. I'll try it lol.

Smack, nice pic. Our blocks for the 110 are about where you describe. That heeling angle is about where I'd start easing the mainsheet to level us a bit - in response to the yells from the rest of my crew lol.

 

Re. tensioning backstay on your C27, you will not bend your mast, so forget about shaping the main. However, the tension in the backstay is transmitted to the forestay and jib luff, so it can help to bring the draft in the jib forward. Or so I'm told.

Okay can we talk about twist for a second? I have heard two seemingly contradictory things about it:

In lighter winds, you can use twist to get the sail's angle of attack to be correct all the way up the luff. Without twist, in light winds, the upper portion of the sail will stall. So, twist in light winds increases drive.

In heavier winds, you can use twist to "spill wind" and depower the sail.

So, which is it? Or are they compatible? Also what is really going on when wind is spilled? I understand the angle-of-attack issue in light winds, but this wind-spilling sounds a bit hand-wavy to me.

 

If you have some serious heel on, and too much sail up, yanking the traveler over will put enough twist up near the head that you will bastardize your foil shape and lose a lot of drive/heel. It really is what it sounds like. I used it to great effect on my IB24. That said I try to only sail in "full sail" conditions.

 

Smack, I have to admit, you are improving your trim especially considering that you don’t have a class mast or boom. A good rule of thumb on beginning lead block placement is to set it so when you sight up the sheet, it would bisect the headstay halfway up the luff. On windier conditions, move the block back. This puts tension on the lower portion of the sail and twists off the top part. To “power up” move the lead forward, to close off the top. This will give you good acceleration and power to plow through heavy chop or waves. Racing, we will move the lead forward during the tack and slowly trim it back as the boat gets up to speed.

 

Smack, I have to admit, you are improving your trim especially considering that you don't have a class mast or boom. A good rule of thumb on beginning lead block placement is to set it so when you sight up the sheet, it would bisect the headstay halfway up the luff. On windier conditions, move the block back. This puts tension on the lower portion of the sail and twists off the top part. To "power up" move the lead forward, to close off the top. This will give you good acceleration and power to plow through heavy chop or waves. Racing, we will move the lead forward during the tack and slowly trim it back as the boat gets up to speed.

Man - this kind of stuff is priceless! Thanks George.

 

Which marina do you sail out of? Also, you will find that the winds etc out of sinclair thru rich are not much different than where you are at, probably less current issues at times. Elliot bay does not have too many currents to speak of as compared to sinclair.

Waves might be a bit larger, as Sinclair is like Lk washington in most place, no fetch for the waves to enlarge, where as east out of Rich in the main channel, waves can get larger, and if you do have a south wind and flood tide, things can get shorter and choppy, an ebb and south is not too bad, Opposite for a north wind. Flood and north wind is not too bad, ebb and north can get choppy.

Marty

 

Just saw Georges post, I took my Genoa's and jibs, and drew a sharpie line on the clew up about 2' or so where this line should be. IE jib on the ground, measured half way up the luff, took a string then followed the string up from teh clew. This helps with the visual a bit quicker. Much easier to then adjust the jib cars.

marty

 

Here are the steps I take to reduce heal and weather/lee helm

Disclosure: I am by no means an expert. I have never taken a sailing class (other then at boy scout camp as a kid). What I am saying is just what I have learned through experience and experimentation and what I have read. So again, please correct me if anything I say is wrong or confusing.

When reaching through sailing close hauled, weather helm is typically caused by the power point on your rigging being too far aft. Lee helm is caused by the power point being too far forward (any of us that go out for the lazy evening sail and just roll out the head sail have seen this). Typically the power is too far aft because most of us have a tendency to over sheet our sails.

So when I have weather helm, or excessive heal, the first step I take is checking my sail trim. I start with the head sail and trim until all tell tales are flying correctly. I follow the three rules of head sail trimming for that. Then I let out the main sheet until it starts to get back winded. The traveler is typically over the center of the boat if you have one. My C&C did not but many of my friends' boats do that I sail on frequently. My main halyard, out haul and Cunningham are typically a little loose at this point.

If I still have excessive weather helm (because you do want a small amount of weather helm) or the boat is healing too much, then I flatten out the main by hauling the main halyard, out haul and Cunningham tight. This depowers the main sail by reducing the sail pocket. If you have a back stay adjuster, you can also tighten this to flatten the sails and depower.

If I still have excessive weather helm or heal, I try moving the traveler to leeward and let out sheet until the sail is back winded to the maximum extent possible. This depowers the main by changing the shape of the sail pocket and "spilling" wind.

Now the sails have been trimmed to the best extent possible. If the weather helm continues, now I will start to think about reefing.

On our C&C, before we added the roller furler, we typically used our 100 jib. We also had a storm jib and 150 genny. We never carried the genny and only had the storm jib when heavy winds (over 18-20 kts) were predicted. So our only option was to reef the main typically. I also did not like changing a hank on sail in the conditions that were typical when it came time to reduce sail.

But when we went to the roller furler, we had the 150 genny cut down to fit on the furler, so it was around 135 to 140 genny. With this set up I found that the full genny was typically causing the back wind on the main earlier then it should be happening without the influence from the genny. So I would furl in the head sail to approximately 75-80% of the head sail area. Now I would retrim the mainsail with the sheet and traveler. This typically would cure the weather helm and excessive heal.

If I had to furl the head sail in to less then 40% of the head sail area, then I would think it is time to reef the main.

I am hoping this same approach will work on my new boat, Catalina 310. But I won't know until she is splashed at the end of the month.

Good luck and I hope this helped.

 

Yeah, no doubt Smack... great advice everyone!

JK, nice concise rundown - it's about what I had loosely in my head (so maybe some of this is starting to embed lol) but I've never had it all laid out so clearly in one spot. I honestly may print that and throw it in the boat next time out, just to make sure I don't forget about something easy.

blt2ski, we're in Port Orchard. Thanks for the advice about rich... I was thinking either slack tide, or wind going with the current for the first time. Other than watching the chop with the wind against the current, anything else to know about rich? Any significant eddys to watch or anything?

Oh, and yeah... plenty of free beer if anyone local wants to show me a thing or two!

Thanks,
Joe

 

Gary is right. You also should consider increasing your out-haul and downhaul or halyard tension to further flatten the main.

A wonderful practice that I used with my sailing students was to have them let go of the tiller and steer the boat with the sails... It is best to do this with the boat on a gentle reach in low to moderate winds... It teaches volumes in teamwork to the helmsman and crew (assuming the helmsman handles the main-sheet). This exercise will also teach which sail needs to be depowered to maintain control of the boat.

 

Joe,

As far as getting thru richp goes, look at tide charts etc. Here is a page I look at a lot, has forecast, tides and current links on it.
National Weather Service - NWS Seattle

Watch yourself with RP as the currents can get into the 4+ knot range. If you have an outboard like smacky, not sure if he has a larger or smaller, but if on the smaller side of things, you could find yourself going no where fast. Before heading out, try to go out say 2hrs before ebb slack, come back after the flood starts, or maybe a bit before as the current dies a bit. Going north to Agate, that pass on some days can hit 6+, so if you have the underpowered outboard, or even a strong inboard, you could find yourself going backwards!

I should be at Bremerton over Mday if things go right, May do the race out there that weekend as part of the Kitsap day celebration. last few years club has gone to POYC and stayed there, but they are not going anywhere, so the swap we do with them does not work, so we have 40 or so slips reserved for Bremerton. Sloop tavern YC is also going to be in Bremerton that weekend too.

Another thought on the main, do you have a cunningham? this helps depower the main a bit when fully up too. Along with halyard tightness.

Marty

 

Watch yourself with RP as the currents can get into the 4+ knot range. If you have an outboard like smacky, not sure if he has a larger or smaller, but if on the smaller side of things, you could find yourself going no where fast.

4 hp. Barely enough to move the boat. Came withing 30' of hitting the rocks when my buddy was at the tiller into 20 knots on the way out of the marina, let her drift off the wind, turned us beam on, and completely stalled the rudder trying to correct.

I want an inboard on my next boat....and a bigger margarita/fog machine.

 

What I do top point in this situation is to flatten the jib hard and have it backwinding the about 1/3 of the main, also flattened. When it gusts I partially luff the jib. This isn't a real shaking luff it's just the forward part of the jib slightly pushing to windward, you feel it more than see it more by feeling the boat ease up and sorta' riding on the edge. Takes experience because you're not far from tacking which you don't want to do.

Going off wind or reaching just ride on the main or jib. Better visibility with the main down

Annother upwind strategy is to drop one sail and run the engine for better control.

I live in Kingston ad overlook the Sound. Seeing boats on one sail up in a blow is the norm unless they're racing.

 

What do boats with with only one sail up do to balance the rig?

 

If your heading downwind most yachts are effectively "balanced" by using a headsail rather than a main. It's when heading upwind that I see it is normally a problem, which is why I think a lot of yachts need a combination of main and jib for upwind work. However each yacht is different and people need to get out and find how their yachts perform.

For helping balancing a yacht with jib only I find using an inner forestay rather than flying sails off the forestay goes along way to balancing a yacht in strong breezers. On my old cutter / ketch I used to fly a small jib off the staysail in 30kt plus winds, which certainly helped balance the yacht and was far easier to control than a partially furled genoa.

Ilenart