If your halyards are external I read somewhere that wire ties along the bundle with the tails sticking out will keep the wires from slapping.

 

That's the solution that Don Casey suggests, sounds like a simple solution.

At copacabana:
How do you hold the PVC against the wall of the mast for riveting? And why riveting, instead of some other method? ie screws

 

Travlineasy,

Your best option is a 3/4 inch PVC pipe conduit inside the mast, riveted to the inside of the mast wall. This way your wires won't interfere with your halyards and vice versa. I don't know why you think this will be expensive. I did mine last July when I hauled out. I bought PVC pipe at the hardware store and did the labour myself (2 or 3 hours). The hardest part is getting the pipe pressed against the mast wall to drill and rivet it in place. If your halyards are internal, there really is no other permanent solution that I'm aware of.

 

Thanks guys and gals--that will be one of the projects to complete before the boat goes back in the water in mid April.

Gary

 

Once you get the PVC close enough to grab, the rivet will pull it tight against the mast. Putting a screw in will always be trying to push the PVC away until/if it 'grabs'.

The 'wire straps left long' may even work with internal halyards, but best if the halyards are there first.. threading a new halyard or messenger through might be interesting...

Either method requires pulling the cables and refeeding them - either into the conduit or with the wire ties attached.

 

The issue is, that the best solutions require taking the mast down.

When I installed some extra accessories at the top of my Coronado's mast, I wrapped all the wires in closed-cell foam pipe insulation. This is not that nasty, black rubber foam that gets wet and disintigrates, this was a plastic-based foam that is extremely cheap at Home Despot, and very durable, and immune to humidity.

I had the mast at home on saw-horses where I covered all the cables, pulled them up into the mast, and voila!- Silence. No drilling, no PVC conduit.

 

First I removed some mast hardware to have a few free holes available. Then I used screwdrivers to push the pipe against the wall of the mast. It takes 2 people. One holds it and another drills and rivets. Start at one end of the mast and after the second fixing point the pipe stays pretty much in place, although you still need to push it firmly against the mast wall to rivet it. It's not exactly easy, but it's also not rocket science. It just takes patience. Riveting is the easiest and strongest method, but I suppose screws could work (or would they eventualy loosen in the pvc?). I suppose a good glue might also work (like 5200) if you roughened the PVC pipe with coarse sandpaper.

The problem with Don Casey's method is that you haven't eliminated the greater problem of having wires (and now a bunch of wire ties) and halyards loose in the mast together. Eventually the rope chafes the wires or something gets tangled. I replaced all my mast wires when I put in the PVC conduit and all had a few big chafe points. The PVC pipe protects the wires and is a smooth surface that won't chafe your halyards. It's a cheap and easy upgrade.

 

I did the conduit with pop-rivets as told by knothead were you drill one small hole to hold the conduit in place with a bent coat hanger and then drill the second through the conduit and rivit it

It worked really well and i was able to have a hole in the conduit at the combo steam/deck light were those wires exited the mast mid level

 

If you’re gonna install a PVC conduit, I think securing it with an adhesive like 5200 is a far simpler way to go, and it saves the drilling of unnecessary holes in the mast…

I did this about 15 years ago, mine’s held up fine… Simply assemble the conduit (I did one from the bottom, another from the top, to allow a break at the spreaders for spreader, steaming, and foredeck lights) and run a heavy bead of 5200 or similar along the conduit, then slide it in the mast (keeping the bead from making contact with the mast wall until you have it properly positioned, of course) Then, simply rotate the conduit to where you want it…

Don't forget to run some sort of messenger line inside the conduit, especially if you're leaving a break somewhere, as I did... You'll be happy you did so when it comes time to run the wires, you can trust me on this (grin)

Then, to insure you’ve got a consistent and adequate distribution of the sealant, slide an equivalent length of heavy, black iron pipe up inside the conduit to weigh it down, and ensure a good, solid connection with the mast wall…

Let it sit until the adhesive cures, remove the black pipe, you’re done…

 

I've got the same problem. Jon's method above sounds good. I've got a long length of rebar that could be used in place of iron pipe.

One thing I question is how do you satisfy the AYBC requirement of supporting the wire every 18 inches (to satisfy you would need a wire tie support every 18 inches coming down the mast, otherwise all of wires weight is supported from one point at the top). With wire in the mast seems nearly impossible. And how do you adequately support 40 feet or more of wire from the mast head? My wire just swing around and rub inside the mast, surprised they still work and have not broken loose from the top of the mast.

 

"One thing I question is how do you satisfy the AYBC requirement of supporting the wire every 18 inches "
I suppose that means doing what the utility companies do on powerlines. Run a separate steel cable, secure the other wires to it every 18". Oh did I forget? To mention do that while the mast is down, now insert the whole bundle in your conduit and secure it from the top, let the steel cable take all the weight.

Sometimes there's no easy or practical way to retrofit.

 

Know as a messager cable. Good idea. Maybe use a 1/16 inch AmSteel line instead of steel cable.

 

No, a messenger cable is used strictly to move other wires from "this end" to "that end". It isn't used to secure them in place. A messenger cable needs to be at least twice as long as the wire run, so it can go back and forth, and still not be lost at either end. And available to move, without moving any existing wiring that remains in place.

 

You previous description was for a messenger cable:

Cable Construction Details

The above definition is for a cable puller:

Engineer's Corner -- Installing Communications Cable in Conduit: Pulling Lubricants, Blowing, Tension Calculations, Software, Fiber Optics, Friction Reduction

 

(snip)

I talked with a couple marinas and they recommended installing a PVC conduit in the mast, which would really be expensive.

(snip)

Has anyone else experienced this problem, and if so, I could sure use a solution.

Thanks in advance,

Gary

Yes I have had this problem. Dad always said "Anything worth doing is worth doing right". He was seldom wrong. Another sage once said to me "If you don't have the time (Or money) do do it right, when will you have the time to do it over?"

 

Just a thought for consideration- if you are ok with drilling some holes in the mast, maybe consider injecting some expanding foam insulation at various points to anchor the wires? Could easily be removed down the road if necessary. ??? Looks like my PO had done something similar. If foam is not exposed to UV should hold up just fine.

 

Casey, Belden ought to know their stuff but I've always been taught, always heard the usage, of a "messenger line" (cable, etc.) as being the line you string between here and there, and use to pull other cables or wires back and forth. By riggers, electricians, anyone who has run one.

And a "cable puller" from the electricians I know, is the thing (gizmo or single cable itself) you attach to one end of a cable, to pull it through. And then you need to run a new messenger line to run another new cable, because you've just pulled out the one that was there before.

Does a "northerly" wind blow fom the north or the south? Despite all the definitions both ways, a northerly wind blows TOWARD not FROM the north. A North wind blows rom the north. A "northerly" one doesn't. Same same I suspect, just as so many people have taken to saying they will "insure" that something gets done, when they mean "ensure". Go back 20 years and the differences were clear, but today the meaning has been largely lost.

Call me stubborn, adamant (two sides of the same coin) or simply wrong, but I'll stand by the only usage I've ever heard all these years and call Belden wrong on this one. Even if it is right in their internal industry jargon.

 

Looks like the minimum at the marina for a conduit installation and rewiring the mast will be somewhere between $800 and $1,000, which is a lot of money, at least to me. The same marina will be more than happy to send a bunch of foam blocks down the mast for about $150 if I buy the foam rubber. Think I'll end up with the foam rubber blocks.

Gary

 

I was looking at my mast last night. I have enough holes here and there to pull the wire out the side of the mast and attach a thick wire tie that is say 1 foot long. I would leave the tail on and that would restrict the movement of the wire some, and maybe enough to silence. Maybe you could try this.

If you jam in the foam, what if you need to run wire in the future. Can they be removed? What about internal halyards?

 

My halyards are all external, so that's not a problem. And, the foam is soft enough and remains attached to the pull line so you can remove it at any time to install another wire if needed.

One of the reasons the conduit would be quite expensive is first all wiring must be disconnected, then the mast must be removed and placed on support stands, which in many instances are nothing more than saw horses. Next, all wiring must be removed from the mast interior, then the conduit is measured, exit ports for spreader and mast light must be drilled at the correct locations, then the conduit is positioned outside the mast and pop-rivet holes are drilled in both the conduit and mast--all of this prior to inserting inside the mast. Once all the holes are drilled, then the wiring is installed inside the conduit and anchored at 18-inch intervals. Naturally, the original wires would be replaced with NEW, tinned, marine grade wire, which adds tremendously to the expense.

The next step is to insert the entire assembly into the mast, which requires 3 to 4 people to pick up and walk the conduit to the end of the mast so it can be inserted. Once the conduit is inside the mast, someone holds each end in place while another person pop-rivets the conduit in place. The person doing the riveting is usually laying on the ground beneath the mast.

Finally, the wiring is reconnected to the mast lights, antenna, etc..., then the crane lifts the mast, reinserts it through the cabin top, the rigging is reattached, the mast boot and seals are reinstalled, then the wires exiting the base of the mast are reconnected to their appropriate connectors and resealed with silicone cement.

Now you have an idea why the cost of installing a PVC electrical conduit inside a mast is cost prohibitive. Most of the marinas I talked with said they would not even quote a price for this, saying the only way they would undertake the task would be on a time and materials basis. Some facilities said they would not consider doing the job at all.

After considering all the options, the foam rubber blocks strung inside the mast seem to be the most economical and logical solution.

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions everyone,

Gary

 

Gary, wait until you have to take down your mast at a future date and do it right with the PVC pipe then. It's something you can do yourself with one helper. It's not quite as complicated as you describe. In the mean time the foam blocks should do the trick, especially as you have all external halyards.

Cheers!

 

The last boat we installed a conduit in was a Pearson 33'. The mast was to be painted so we stripped the mast and installed the conduit. That took four hours. At 75.00 per hour, plus the conduit and rivets that came to about 300.60. Add in the crane fee, 150.00 each way, that comes to about 660.00.

We ended up doing a complete rerig, complete rewiring, added a led anchor light, spartite and a bunch of extra stuff so the final bill was more like 4 grand.
FWIW.

 

You don't need pipe at all. Just take some zip ties and wrap them around your bundle of wires about every 3'. Leave the protruding ends of the zip ties on, and point them in different directions. You can even do this with the mast still on. Just pull all the wires out the top of the mast, and add the zip ties as you push the wire bundle down the mast again.
Zip Ties.

These will keep your wires from knocking against the inside of the mast. I've done this and it worked perfectly.

 

You don't need pipe at all. Just take some zip ties and wrap them around your bundle of wires about every 3'. Leave the protruding ends of the zip ties on, and point them in different directions. You can even do this with the mast still on. Just pull all the wires out the top of the mast, and add the zip ties as you push the wire bundle down the mast again.
Zip Ties.

These will keep your wires from knocking against the inside of the mast. I've done this and it worked perfectly.

Sure that works for silencing the wires, but it doesn't prevent the possibility of chafing between the halyard and the wires. It also doesn't allow for the possibility of running a wire up later without dropping the mast again and removing the whole bundle.

By the way, the foam idea is a really bad one. I drilled into a mast once to install a cheek block for lazy jacks on a Morgan 41' OI about thirty feet up the mast. Water streamed out of the 3/16" hole for about five minutes.
Turns out the guy had squirted foam into the mast to stop the slapping wires and it created a dam. In a number of places.
And talk about a nightmare to remove the stuff if you ever decide to do it right.
Bad idea.

 

Knothead, not quite. You can pull the whole wire bundle out the top, cut the zip ties and then drop a new bundle down again, if you ever need to add or change a wire. I've done this.
Because the wires are still free inside the mast, I can't see much chance for chafing with a halyard. they will just move out of the way.
I've used this method for 7 years and have not faced either of the problems you mentioned. Perhaps someone else has.

 

You're right of course. I don't mean to say that your method won't work on certain masts and be a good answer for a lot of people. However, many spars out there just don't lend themselves to that method. A lot of mastheads are welded and not bolted and it would be next to impossible to remove a bundle of wires from the top.
Then you have your steaming light wire, your deck light wire, your radar cable that I assume are also ziptied to this bundle.

I'm just used to working for other people and I know that I can't get away with doing it your way. For diy's it may make sense. From my standpoint, it's just better to contain the wires in a conduit, not connected to each other. There are advantages to this method that may or may not be important to the boat owner at some time in the future.
For instance, if the anemometer acts up and the process of elimination leaves only the cable, it could be important to be able to pull a replacement cable through without having to go aloft, remove the masthead, and pull all the wires out of the top of the mast.

It's kinda like why I advise my customers on certain pieces of hardware over another. The likelihood of a problem or failure is small, but the problems that I've observed over a couple of decades in the business has been associated with one type more than the other so that's what I recommend.

I've observed way more problems over the years when shortcuts and "creative" methods have been employed to silence wires inside a mast.

 

Why not put the wires in some PVC conduit and then wrap the zip-ties around the conduit to keep it from rattling? You would have to use more and/or heavier zip-ties because of the mass of the conduit. But, the wires would be protected from the halyards and you wouldn't have to drill holes in the mast. Might be awkward getting the conduit into the mast without dropping the rig to do it, however.

Oh, and leave a messenger in the conduit for any future additions.

EDIT:
Oops. Never mind. I forgot about getting wires out of the conduit at intermediate places along the mast (spreader lights, steaming light, radar). Anytime a wire came out of the conduit, if the conduit wasn't firmly anchored to the inside wall of the mast, the wire would be subject to chafe.

 

Gary,
My mast is down and I'm going to do the same thing I did on last boat that I was very happy with. I have internal halyards too and slapping wires and halyards keep me awake. So I bought 50 feet of black poly spiral wrap from McMaster Carr and wrapped the cables in that making a nice neat bundle. Then I got so 2" thick Ethafoam polyethylene foam 2" thick. Its used for packaging things like LCD TVs and such on the corners. It is NOT styrofoam which is ridgid and breaks. I hold it against the end of the mast and trace around the mast with a marker, Then I use a sharp knife to cut out the oval to the outside dimension of the mast. I cut a small notch at the front edge for the wire bundle. I sharpen the edge on a sink tailpiece pipe to cut a round hole in the middle. The halyards all go up the center holes. I then use my whisker pole to push them in from both ends, spaced about 3 feet apart.

Ahhh! Silent halyards! Life is good.

Gary H. Lucas

 

Ethafoam is great stuff and I use it for lots of things, including lining my music keyboard cases, camera cases, and other things that I want to anchor in place and not have to worry with the Styrofoam beads. Never thought about using for this application, and because I just had the standing rigging replaced last summer, I don't want to undergo the expense and troubles of pulling the mast again.

Thanks for the tips,

Gary

 

I got a dumpster full of that stuff. You can have it but we are 5,000 miles away from each other. One thing I question, the foam seems to be open cell. This would absorb water and stay wet for a long time. Could also get salt water for the blue water sailors. Once it gets salt in it, it will stay damp, and potential corrode your mast in the areas the foam is located.

 

My halyards are external (I made them that way during the refit). I went with expanding foam every two feet. Solid as a rock, and I can "yank" them out whenever/if the need arises.

Worked out great (so far). I made sure not to fully fill the areas so water will drain down..