Your offer should be based on what you think the boat is worth after looking at competing boats in the marketplace, blue book value, and boat condition.

There is no general rule on how much lower you should go.

 

I have always worked through a broker who helped me make a very good offer. I usually offer about 25% less than what I want to pay, I do not want to pay any more than I have to, and I do my best to drive a very hard bargain. I once bought a new Nissan Titan 4x4 four door pickup for $27,000.00 less than what the dealer was asking. It took three nights of negotiating until well after closing, and they finally took my offer, probably out of pure desire not to have me come back and stay until 1:00 AM another night, but no matter what the case I got the truck I wanted at the price I wanted to pay.

One key to negotiations on vehicles is patience and cash. If you are not going to finance the boat, car, semi-truck, house or whatever, or if you are not going to finance it with the seller, you have a much more firm position to bargain from and the seller has no hold on you. It is also common practice to post a surety or escrow with an offer in earnest to the seller while in negotiation. Using a broker who is working on your behalf will help with the legal paperwork, the offer in earnest, and the transfer and escrow of funds.

If you are buying from an individual you can still use the services of a broker, for a fee. If you would like to know more on this you can PM me here, I can check with my broker and have him put you in contact with someone from his company in your area, and they can help you if you are not working with someone already.

Remember the seller is going to try to get the best deal for himself, you should do the same.

Mark

 

.... Using a broker who is working on your behalf will help with the legal paperwork, the offer in earnest, and the transfer and escrow of funds.

If you are buying from an individual you can still use the services of a broker, for a fee. If you would like to know more on this you can PM me here, I can check with my broker and have him put you in contact with someone from his company in your area, and they can help you if you are not working with someone already....
Mark

While a boat buyer may (should IMHO)work with a broker on a search, for the benefits that you mention and more, that broker (referred to in the paperwork as the selling broker) is legally an agent of the seller and is always compensated by the seller from the sale proceeds.

Despite a number of other threads here on the concept of a "buyer" broker, namely a broker who is an agent of the buyer and is compensated by the buyer, no such real individual has yet appeared.

 

For anyone who endured with me through this last year, on an almost purchase, this will probably cause your eyes to roll back into their sockets.

The boat? Sabre 34. Yeah, the same make & model but not the same year. "Remember the chainplates!"

But this one isn't $12K. It's over 4 times that, asking price. It's only about 40 miles from here so I can actually see it without hopping on a plane.

I think the price is too high, based on the pics and info provided, but I don't want to insult the owners and that be the end of it. So I was just wondering what the typical seller is used to hearing for the initial offer.

 

....I was just wondering what the typical seller is used to hearing for the initial offer.

Absolutely, positively no answer to this. It depends on whether the seller has listed far above value, at value or, while rare, below value.

You should make an offer just a bit below what you think the boat is worth, whatever that relationship is to the asking price. Doesn't matter. Could be half. Could be asking price. Don't screw up your deal with averages. Know what you are buying.

Then sell yourself as a buyer! Do you have cash, can you demonstrate that you've bought before and aren't just a tire kicker, etc. They may jump on your offer, or you may need some wiggle room to come up to what you are actually willing to pay.

If one's self worth is based upon sitting at the bar and telling stories about how much lower than asking price you paid, then just make it up! Its no different than how big today's offshore waves and wind were.

Good luck.

 

HOw about an offer based on what I can afford (less then I believe the boat is worth) dont want to insult the seller but I really like the boat.. I will be cash in hand(ok bank) when I make the offer..

 

That's how I got all 4 of my boats (Catalina 25, Allmand 31, Albacore 15, Bombard AX3). I have always been completely honest about my situation, told them that I know the market stinks but I have cash (no financing that could fall through) and wished them good luck (in advance) if they decide not to take my offer. I've been cursed out by a few sellers, but in general people are polite, and occasionally you find one who will sell you his/her boat for the price you can pay.

 

In my world anyone selling anything used regardless of what it is knows that they will be countered on the price. No one gets asking price on a used boat, if it is what you want, and it fits your needs offer 15% to 20 % below asking price. If the seller is so sensitive to a counter offer that they tell you to never come back you likely don't want to do business with them, ever.

Happy hunting

 

No one gets asking price on a used boat, if it is what you want, and it fits your needs offer 15% to 20 % below asking price...

I paid the asking price for my used boat. I had been trolling Craigslist, Yachtworld, and eBay for several weeks, and I knew the price was fair and the boat was what I wanted. I continue to check those sites (over a year now) and haven't seen an obviously better deal.

I am always interested in getting a good deal, but never interested in negotiating just for the sake of negotiating. I agree with Alex that your offer should be based on your opinion of the value of the boat, your own needs, and the current marketplace. If that offer is less than asking then so be it, but if it's the asking price (or higher, in some market situations) then that's OK too.

 

In this deal their are three parts. The buyer the boat and the seller. As the buyer you know all their is about the buyer but little about the boat and the seller. You do the best you can to learn about the boat, survey, sea trial etc. but at the end of the day the seller probably knows more about the boat.

If it is a hands off deal where you only get to talk to the broker it is hard to judge the real situation. If you can work it so you can talk to the seller you may be able to frame your offer to be more appealing.

Selling a boat is very emotional for a lot of people. Every situation is different. Some people are broke and think they need a specific number that is more than the boat is worth.
If you can show them with comps and repair estimates your offer is good you may get them to budge.
Other people are emotionally invested in the boat but have plenty of money. If you make yourself look like a younger version of them they may sell you the boat way under value just because they want to boat to go to a good home.

The more you can tailor your offer to the sellers real needs the better your chances.
Sometimes it is just about the money but often it is not.

 

When I purchased my W27 this year, I made it clear to the seller that I was going to make only one offer. My highest. That was it. They could then decide how my offer compared to the other offers in hand.

Based on our conversations, I knew that several others had inspected the boat and made extremely low offers. 25% of asking.

I offered 70% of asking price, and felt like I got quite a deal when they accepted.

 

Another one here that paid asking price.
As said before, you offer what the boat is worth to you. Fair value!
In my case the seller set his price, it was at my budget, and so the only thing that remained was to see if the value was there.
I belief it was and therefore made the deal.
In the end it paid big dividends as I got free use of the sellers dock for more than 6 months from the purchase to work on the boat.

I know I wouldn't have got that if I tried to haggle unreasonably.

What's your integrity worth to you?

 

First boat offered 70% of asking price, we settled at about 80% with some additional repairs done at owners expense.

Sold first boat at about 70% of my asking price but I took some gear with me.

Second boat offered 70% of asking price. Rejected, could not come to an agreement.
Revisited three months later and gave the broker the exact same offer, he called me back within three minutes to say we had a deal.

It's business. Never personal.

 

I'd agree with most posts so far. I will point out that it is still a crappy market for selling a used luxury item like a boat though. In my opinion a seller ought to be happy getting 70% of their asking price in this market.

I think that davidpm makes a good point in that it can help you a lot if you have some idea of the seller's motivation. In my case our PO had already bought a bigger boat and was motivated to sell his old gal as he was paying 2 yard bills concurrently. From an asking price around $7K my minions negotiated a final price of $4K.

Hopefully the higher asking price of this Sabre 34' reflects that it is in better condition and not the idea that the owner feels that their precious baby is worth more than what a Sabre 34' is really worth.

If many recent upgrades and new stuff (sails, running/standing rigging, engine, radar, fridge etc.) then that could also explain the higher asking price.

Good luck Julie.

 

I'd agree with most posts so far. I will point out that it is still a crappy market for selling a used luxury item like a boat though. In my opinion a seller ought to be happy getting 70% of their asking price in this market.

If the seller understands the market then their price is already lowered to be 70% of what the asking price might be in a stronger market.

I also find it hard to get involved in price comparisons across the US. Based on Sailnet and Yacht World the boat market is clearly different in the Chesapeake than in Puget Sound.

It sounds like this one might be price high, but that doesn't mean that all are. I bought my Pearson for about 10-15% under the asking price and feel like I got a good deal.

 

The Sabre in Waukegan is a nice looking boat but seventy percent of 50 grand is still 35 grand. Wow. It ain't the top asking price for the 12 available in the US right now but it's right up there.

 

I agree with the posters who say there is no single answer. The best negotiation advice I could give you is to figure out what is important to you and also to the seller. Sometimes what they need doesn't cost you as much as it benefits the seller.

I suggest you start by deciding what the boat is worth to you. If you have been following sales sites like Yachtworld you know what people are asking, but may not know what boats sold for. If you work with a broker, he can probably access a database called "sold boats" that shows that information. It can be a real eye opener if there are a lot of the same model of boat out there, but may not help much if the boat you are looking at is less common.

Once you know what the boat is worth to you, find out all you can about what the boat is worth to the seller, and why he or she is selling. Find out how long the boat has been on the market, and if possible, find out if it has been reduced in price before you looked at it. All of these things might influence how the seller will respond to an offer. If the boat is newly on the market, and if there are no obvious indicators that the seller is in financial trouble, then the seller is less likely to respond favorably to a low offer. If the boat has been on the market for a long time, and the price has been reduced several times, the seller may be more receptive.

I disagree with the poster who said make one offer at top dollar and tell the seller it's a take it or leave it offer. The problem is, you may mean it, but sellers almost never believe it, and it makes a harder negotiation if you start at the top and refuse to budge. That is true whether you are trying to buy a car, a boat, a house, or anything else.

Besides, if you start at your top dollar, you don't know if the seller would have sold for less. If you want to pay the lowest price you can, your goal is to make the lowest initial offer that the seller will respond to with a counter-offer. That's where understanding the seller's motivation comes into play.

Two other recommendations: One is to make your offer subject to survey. It costs money to have a proper survey done, but it can save money in the long run if you find problems that need to be fixed. If there are problems, you can re-negotiate the price with the seller to cover the repairs (if he or she agrees) or walk away if the repairs make the deal not a good one after all. The second recommendation is to be careful working with a broker. They can be a source of valuable information and good advice, but if the broker is being paid by the seller (or out of the selling price) then the broker may have a duty to the seller to try to get you to pay the highest price possible. You can ask the broker who is paying him or her, and most reputable brokers will be up front about this part of their business. It may just mean you can't rely on the broker for advice about the price.

Good Luck.

 

Another angle on this. It is not uncommon for some owners to list there boat for what they paid, plus the cost of the improvements they've made. Even if they absolutely know that the improvements are not worth their cost, they figure nothing ventured nothing gained. If they get their money back, they will buy bigger. If they don't they keep what they have.

In those cases, if you offer a standard 15 or 20 percent less, you are grossly overpaying.

No standard answer.

 

Do your home work Offer 10% less than you will be prepared to pay, this gives you some wriggle room. GOOD boats priced right don't last and you can well lose a good boat. I have seen stupid offers made on good boats and the original prospective comes back a Month later expecting to put in a decent offer only to be told "Sorry under contract". Sellers are starting to realize that asking too much for their boat actually poisons it. as every couple of months they have to drop the price to what they should have originally listed it for. The buyers that have been watching this over priced vessel have either bought the better priced boat or waiting for this one to hit rock bottom. Pay a reasonable price that makes you and the seller happy, there have been some great friendships made that cover oceans.

 

You should offer the fair market value of a comparable boat.

A common issue is buyer fixation. The buyer decides one boat or one model is THE BOAT and he or she loses all objectivity. The seller then controls the transaction because the buyer will do pay or do anything to buy that particular boat or one of the limited supply of that particular model.

Why are you really buying a sailboat? What do you envision it will it do for you?

Whatever your reasons, there are likely plenty of comparable boats that would satisfy your purposes (that are not Sabre 34s). Offer what you believe you would have to pay to satisfy your boating needs.

Deciding on a Sabre complicates the process, because you will be paying for something beyond any real practical value for many sailors, for some element of owner satisfaction. Sabres are well-made, quality boats which display considerable craftsmanship, particularly in the interior. Racers describe these kinds of boats derogatorily as "furniture boats". Ultimately, this build quality and craftsmanship have little or nothing to do with getting from point A to point B, seaworthiness, cruising ability, sailing enjoyment, or sailing ability. To use a car analogy, you will be buying a Mercedes or a BMW, not a Toyota or a Honda, or even a Lexus or an Infiniti.

If you want a good value or a practical boat, there are any number of less expensive boats that will function just as well as a Sabre 34.

I don't begrudge anyone who wants to pay extra for the satisfaction of greater quality. If it satisfies your emotional needs, more power to you. Just understand why you are buying a particular type of boat and the costs that you pay for to satisfy that need.

I agree with making your offer more attractive by showing your ability to close the sale. Offer to provide the bank statement showing liquid funds in your account, or your loan pre-approval if you will be financing the purchase. Expect information from the seller about what you are purchasing.

 

As James said Sabres are quality build boats. That's why the 84 Sabre you are looking at has a higher resale value. not because its a furniture build boat. The 34 Sabre is also a good handling well balanced sailing boat. The accompaniments of having a great fit and finish inside make it a sought after brand. In addition it standard comes with oversized equipment and quality winches. The build quality is also why this boat has retained more of its % value than say a comparable year hunter/ bene. You tend to find more of the Sabres around % to the number built than many other boat models, again going back to the quality of build. Yes both sail, but some sail better,. If you are using it for racing there is no value in the beautiful joinery, but your not so the joinery adds to the "feel" of the boat as a second place to be which is important to you. With Sabres you get the best of both worlds. A quick good sailing well designed boat with a superior wood finish inside.

As you look at making an offer as others have said there is no standard bid. In looking at the Waukeegan boat if that's the one I would say it looks in good condition from the pictures. It also doesn't have a lot of extra equipment on her. The way the sails are described ill bet the are original. The engine has very low hours for a 39 year old boat. If she has been kept on the Lakes her entire life it means she has been sailed and exposed lightly.

In negotiating first determine the price you will not go above in the end. What's its worth in the market and to you. This boat is listed at 49, way above its worth in the current market. Looking at comps I would say its 39-40is high end. Personally I would start at 32 and not go above 37. If there is apparently issues with the chain plates and have them fixed as a condition of sale or further reduction in price.

As James said don't get fixated. I would also continue looking and develop other potential boats so you don't feel pressured to not walk away.

 

Have you seen the NADA boat value guides, and are you aware of BoatUS's boat value service? BOth are free (though you have to give BoatUS your info, and they will hit you up to insure the boat), and are EXCELLENT ways of getting a sense of what an "average condition" version of any given boat will sell for. In my opinion, that's an easy, neutral way of finding a baseline for the price. Then you adjust up or down based on condition, equipment, etc.

In the end, I agree with most of the other posts here - YOU have to feel good when the transaction is finished. Become as informed as possible, and make the offer that a) you can justify and b) you think the seller will accept.

 

Honestly I think the NADA Guides are pretty inaccurate. If it is a common boat then I wouldn't give them too much credit. You can try to use them for negotiating, but I wouldn't take them too seriously.

Maybe they are just incredibly inaccurate for my boat because they are mixing up sales history for both models of Pearson 28. They don't even have the measurements correct for my boat. The list of optional equipment makes no sense for smaller sailboats either.

I also did an estimate for a Catalina 25 and it's a little more reasonable, though the option list still doesn't make any sense. There is also no consideration for condition.

 

While I agree with some of what you say, it must be noted that if you are financing a boat the lender will start here for a value. Survey may get you to another number, but the key word is "might".

Unfortunately, it's one of those numbers that sellers think is crap, but buyers and finance companies tend to use.

 

PHRF ratings are the best indications we have of relative sailing speeds of different boats in mixed fleet racing.

A Sabre 34 rates anywhere from 141 - 165
A C&C 35-2 rates anywhere from 123-139
A Pearson 10M (33 feet) rates anywhere from 141-150

There is a decent looking C&C 35-2 over on the Eastern Shore for $19K - the boat I would probably buy if I were moving up in size, suitable for my purposes: 1974 C&C MK II sailboat for sale in Maryland
It is probably 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of the Sabre 34 and is a clearly faster boat, good build quality, and a great-sailing boat according to all the reviews. You can also buy a decent, faster, Pearson 10M for less than $20K.

Again, I just can't see paying twice or three times as much for a boat that essentially performs the same purpose with basically the same accommodations for cruising, but to each his own. Personally, I would not pay a premium for a nicer interior and better build quality with no practical advantages for my purposes of day sailing and occasional coastal cruising.

This is not to criticize your choice at all, Julie. I think the Sabres are great boats and I understand why people buy them. Just consider your other options, because you are moving out of the realm of the purely practical into the more emotional reasons for buying.

 

Didn't know you were in the market James. I would part with my 35 MKIII k/c for the right price

 

James: I think it's a valid approach for you to maximize PHRF for the dollar, but I can also understand other people having different priorities. I also care about having a good performing boat (interestingly we've both ended up with different eras of the Pearson 28, both have a respectable PHRF for a cruising 28' boat) but also care about interior layout and comfort. C&C 29 and 30 were also high on my list when I was most recently shopping.

If you are maximizing PHRF for the minimum cost (ignoring quality) it seems like there would be even cheaper options than a C&C 35, like a San Juan 34?

 

Here's my thinking...

The boat was built in 1984, making it 29 years old. Most of the boats we've been looking at were built in the 80s. I know boats tire with age and use, some faster than others. Usually, the quality boat tires more slowly. So from that point of view, the quality boat is more appealing to me. And upon resale, it won't depreciate dramatically from age 29 to maybe the mid 30s.

Right now, we will use it as a weekend get-away and will most likely stay on it overnight a couple nights a week, maybe more. So sleeping, showering, cooking, etc. are important parts of the decision factor.

Sailing - We don't want a tub but we aren't going to race either. Fast and comfortable is ideal though. We want a boat that can sail in light winds just as easily as heavier winds. No constant looks over at the black start button wondering if we don't push it will we ever reach our destination thoughts.

Ideally, we'd like to take a week or two to make the trek up the lake, Mackinac Island specifically. That's a two-weeker. So it has to be able to handle the weather and keep two people reasonably comfortable. Anyone who knows the Great Lakes knows violent storms can jump on top of you quickly. So I don't want to be fearing our little boat will be broken apart when we get caught up in that. And if we travel, we will.

I need peace of mind when buying. You can't know everything about a boat, not even with a thorough survey by the most competent surveyor. There's always something about to break down, always something hidden trying to take your boat to Nature's original state. A better quality boat that is well maintained will increase the odds of not experiencing too much of that.

We're going to look at it this weekend. Right now, the boat is on the hard. We may have a motivated seller. But in the end, it's are we willing to commit to the cost of ownership? that will determine if we will become boat owners. This will not become an emotional decision.

 

Here's my thinking...

I need peace of mind when buying. You can't know everything about a boat, not even with a thorough survey by the most competent surveyor. There's always something about to break down, always something hidden trying to take your boat to Nature's original state. A better quality boat that is well maintained will increase the odds of not experiencing too much of that.

We're going to look at it this weekend. Right now, the boat is on the hard. We may have a motivated seller. But in the end, it's are we willing to commit to the cost of ownership? that will determine if we will become boat owners. This will not become an emotional decision.

You are the only ones who have to love it, and you should base your spending on your needs and desires, this is not an investment, it is a luxury. It is something you do not because you have to, like food, and so forth, but it is something you do because you love doing it. Spend wisely, use your head, but also use your heart. If you look at the boat and you love it and it is worth to you what you have to pay to get it, then buy it. It will be your responsibility, and your money that has to go to keeping it the way you like it. A good survey is much needed and if you see that the survey reveals things that would make the boat worth less, then show that to the seller, most times they will accept that and either repair it, or reduce the price, often by a lot.

Ten years ago I was looking at a boat, it was more than I could afford, but it caught my eye, and even though the owner was asking $65,000.00 I offered $29,500.00 not because I was trying to lowball him, but because that was all of my budget, plus a little. I made an offer in earnest through a broker, I put up the entire amount in escrow with the broker. He went to the seller and the offer was rejected, but then a survey done by the broker turned up some issues. It was six months later, but I got the boat at $20,000.00 and spent another $18,000.00 on it in repairs and replacing things that were needed. I sailed it for three years, and sold it for $29,000.00. Most people would say I lost money, I would say I gained something money could not buy, the experiences of not only sailing, but also working on the boat. I was happy, and I was the only one I had to please.

 

In my experience, when the seller is constantly pointing out how great the boat is, and how perfectly they have maintained it, and doing a hard sell, then they are pretty firm on the price.

When they stand back and just say - " there it is, check it out" then they might take less

Neither of which should really affect your offer, but it gives you some insight.

I once offered 90% on a sailboat and the seller said loudly " I''d put a hole in it and sink it first!" I breathed a sigh of relief and bought a bigger boat cheaper later that year. On the cheap boat I offered 100%, in cash, no dickering.

 

Interesting responses. All are good and I'll only add one thing that I haven't yet read. Buying or selling an item is not a contest of wills. A successful negotiation is a meeting of goals or intentions. As such, it should never be viewed as a zero-sum game where you have to lose for me to win. I run my business this way and it's what's kept us in demand for 26 years. Do your research (BoatUS is a great resource for valuation), and offer a fair price a bit below where you intend to settle. If it doesn't happen, then my mom's advise applies - there is always another "good deal".

Ok, I'll add a second response. Yes, Sabres are well built but so are Catalinas. The reason why a Sabre is so much more pricy is the interior and the cost of the components, not the quality of the hull itself. IMO, Catalina makes an excellent boat. But Garhauer is much cheaper than Schaefer and there is no such thing as a stock Sabre sail. The interior is piece-built by hand and there are virtually no moulded components (except for the shower on newer Sabres). That all costs. Each Sabre is semi-custom.

I agree with jimwilson that we're not as fast as others, but we can go almost-fast in great style and comfort! As for a 1984 Sabre's longevity...um, if it's maintained, it can be a gem. I know, I have an '84 and had an '82 Sabre 28 before this. PM me if you have any specific questions.

NOTE: Sabre no longer manufactures sailboats. If you own one, you own a collector's edition.

 

There's another factor I'm looking at - resale. There's a never ending list of production boats for sale so when it comes time to sell, to either go up or out, if you have a production boat, that you want to sell quickly, you will most likely have to sell it at a much lower than value price. I've seen production boats priced in the $30-50K range that have been for sale over a year. I wouldn't want to get stuck there though I know there's no guarantee I won't by buying up. It's always a roll of the dice.

I'm an avid woodworker and being surrounded by beautiful woodwork and joinery can be soothing to me. The boat is my escape. When I see interiors filled with white fiberglass, it hurts my eyes. I'm just finishing up a cabinet refacing in the kitchen, my first time working with sapele. It's absolutely gorgeous! Salepe has such beautiful chatoyance. I think I like it better than figured maple.

And I need that. Yes, NEED. My friends joke, telling me my house looks like a boat. Gee, I wonder why... So I'm willing to pay extra for that. It's worth it to me.

I got this from BoatUS today:
Resale value is estimated to be $35,796.00, although, noting the age, the specific vessel could easily be properly priced significantly higher (or lower).

We would, therefore, encourage at least an informal "sense of things" inspection and consultation with a marine surveyor prior to making an offer, to be followed up by a thorough pre-purchase survey upon acceptance of the offer.

In any case, it is recommended that you avail yourself of a sea-trial, to include flying all sails in the inventory, a complete rigging and hull survey, and a separate engine and engineering survey of the mechanical propulsion components, preferably by an experienced technician certified for that brand of machinery, and including a spectrographic analysis of the engine oil.

The owners are asking $49,900. If lenders start at the BoatUS number, it seems a stretch to get to almost $50K, especially with the original motor. At least it's not an Atomic!

We'll take a look at it this weekend. We'll be looking at other boats too.

 

Julie as a wood geek I'm just thrilled that you used chatoyance in your post

Seriously as I read through this thread I kept coming back to something a wise broker once told me - A well loved boat, in good condition will always sell quickly regardless of the market.

From what I've seen over the past few years he was right. If this is the boat on YachtWorld that others have mentioned it certainly looks well loved, and in a boat this age a well maintained boat really stands out from the crowd. It won't last long on the market.

Is the price too high? Well you said it yourself, you'll know when you step aboard if this is the boat for you. Make what you think is a fair offer contingent upon a survey and test sail. Tell the broker why you think it's worth X so they have something to go back with besides a number. That can make a difference. No need to beat the seller over the head.

And as for the brand/boat, well you keep coming back to Sabre. Even if you can't exactly put your finger on it there's a reason those boats appeal to you. That's all the reason you need. Best of luck and hopefully she's the one.

 

Julie - I just went through this purchasing my Hunter 40.

Smack, The Boys & Their Yacht

Offered 22% below asking. Purchase price ended-up about 25% below asking after settling on some work that needed to be done. Everyone's pretty happy.

 

Smack Congrats!

Best of luck with her.

 

Offer $30k and see what happens?