My jib sheet cleats are all horns. They are more challenging to use quickly, but they are also very secure once tied. I contemplated adding some sort of jam or cam cleat, but never did. Eventually just upgraded to self-tailing winches, which as you note, solve the problem. But also as you note, are quite expensive.

I used winchers on a previous boat. They work reasonably well if you can get the coil tension on the winch just right. For the price they are definitely worth trying.

 

Horn cleats seem like the most trusted. They have been working fine for me, just not the fastest or easiest to work with. Thanks for your feedback!

 

My last boat had winches on the primary winches; they were ok. Mine were a bit old and weathered so I'm guessing they would have been better when new.

For a boat your size some good quality cam cleats would work well. They are easy to cleat and to release.

https://www.harken.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=390

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On my boat (24ft), I kept the horn (actually jam) cleats and added cam cleats. It made it a lot easier to handle the jib, especially when single-handed. When I upgraded to self-tailing winches I wanted to keep the cam cleats, but there was no longer enough room on the winch islands. Having both is good for different conditions, at least on a small boat like mine.

 

I like that idea. Maybe I will add cam cleats, but keep the horn cleats. If I find myself sailing more, then perhaps I will save up for some self-tailing winches

 

Cam cleats. Horn cleats are as obsolete for line tails as buggy whips.

Horn cleats can work... just not as well. That said, cam cleats much be located correctly, so don't just swap them without researching the angles.

 

Hi guys! New to sailing and new to sailnet. My grandfather has a 1978 27 foot sailboat that I am learning to sail. He is getting older and is passing the sailboat down to me. I have only taken it out a couple times, and always with someone else who knows what they are doing. I am still learning the basics: tacking, jibing, MOB drills, docking, etc.

One of the first things I noticed was how hard it was to tie off the jib sheets on a horn cleat. I have to take my hands off of the tiller (I try to keep the tiller tucked under my arm somehow) and tie the sheet on the horn cleat as fast as I can. But trying to keep hold of the tiller, tie off the jib sheet, pay attention to the wind, watch for other boats and amongst other things isn't easy! I saw some people use cam cleats for their jib sheet to so they can quickly tie trim their jib sheets and release them as needed. Perhaps this is a feature on newer sailboats... I wouldn't know.

Anyways, is it worth it to buy and install cam cleats? clam cleats? or just stick with the old reliable horn cleats? Thank you in advance for your help guys! Also i see some boats in my marina have self-tailing winches. Based on the price of new winches, I don't think i could afford them. I have also heard of people adding rubber Winchers to their existing winches but also heard they dont work great. I would love to hear about your experiences. Thanks!

Here's a video channel made for you.

Sail Fanatics

This channel is devoted to enjoying the sailing life! Tom and Ellen are life-long sailors who presently cruise the waters of the New England region of the US...

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I always put a clam cleat forward of the standard cleat for jib sheets, but if you have self-tailers they can accomplish roughly the same thing, especially if the winch and tailer are oriented correctly. I also use clam cleats on the centerboard pennant and main sheet. Before we get into the "best anchor" argument, the clam cleat has no moving parts. Period. I just installed NEW CAM cleats (garhauer) on my bridge deck for traveler control lines. I like them, but they have moving parts that can crap out on you. And boy, when you're putting them down on the deck, be very, very careful or you WILL get educated as to how they function and how you can screw them up. Especially when you remove the center bolt to thru bolt one to the deck. The spring lets go and you have nothing.

 

I always put a clam cleat forward of the standard cleat for jib sheets, but if you have self-tailers they can accomplish roughly the same thing, especially if the winch and tailer are oriented correctly. I also use clam cleats on the centerboard pennant and main sheet. Before we get into the "best anchor" argument, the clam cleat has no moving parts. Period. I just installed NEW CAM cleats (garhauer) on my bridge deck for traveler control lines. I like them, but they have moving parts that can crap out on you. And boy, when you're putting them down on the deck, be very, very careful or you WILL get educated as to how they function and how you can screw them up. Especially when you remove the center bolt to thru bolt one to the deck. The spring lets go and you have nothing.

Clam cleats are ok for small control lines, but I wouldn't use them on high load applications. They are more prone to accidentally releasing, and even though they have no moving parts, they do wear out.

Perhaps Garhauer cam cleats can fall apart when installing them but other makes do not. I would only use Harken or Ronstan on my boat! They may cost a few bucks more, but they aren't that expensive.

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on a 27' boat a Cam cleat would work very well if you have a place to mount it that has a good lead angle, you could also replace the existing horn cleat with a Schaefer Jam cleat.

Self Jamming : Schaefer Marine, Inc.

Schaefer Marine, Inc. : Self Jamming - Blocks Mast Hardware Cleats Shackles Deck Hardware Mainsail Genoa Rigging Rudder Hardware Sheave Winch Handle Powerboat Hawk Wind Indicators Sea Sure Products Schaefer Specials Jib Furlers and Accessories Tuff Luff Blue Wave marine, hardware, sailboat

hardware.schaefermarine.com

 

Genuinely curios @MikeOReilly , what kind of failure are you anticipating? Is it along the lines of someone accidentally knocking the line out of the self-tailer, or more like your winch literally ripping out of the deck?

 

self tailer and horn cleat? old habits die hard. what failure? the winch will still be there even after the sheet or sail blows apart so backup is not needed. I think of the winches as very well redesigned horn cleats.

 

Never heard of a winch being torn off?

The horn cleat is a simple, solid, backup. Not sure why this is so controversial.

 

Never heard of a winch being torn off?

The horn cleat is a simple, solid, backup. Not sure why this is so controversial.

Just trying to understand your reasoning thats all. If I were concerned about my winch being torn off my deck that repair would move to the top of my list PDQ! Your winch should be one of the strongest points on your boat!

If you have the sheet cleated on your self tailer, and then terminated to the horn cleat then all of the load is still going to be on the winch.

The downside of double cleating as you do would be the extra steps it takes to make adjustments, and the delay in casting off the sheet in the event you need to do so quickly.

One of the beauties of self tailing winches is the ability to make trim adjustments quickly and easily with one hand.

At the end of the day, whatever makes you comfortable is what you should do, I just think it is completely unnecessary on most boats thats all.

New boats don't even come with cleats for the sheets.

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never seen a winch that was torn off a boat , must not have been installed properly or way to small for the job. if it happens it can't be very often. even if it did happen it is only the jib sheet so not a disaster just wincht it on the other side have seen a few horn cleats that either were broken or were riped out of the deck but that goes back to my wooden boat days

 

I agree. Nailing down a sheet always gave me the heebie jeebies. I saw a Hinckley SW 42 run OVER a smaller Morris one day outside of SW Harbor. They couldn't free the sheet that was pegged to the cleat with a freakin' knot in the end of it. I've always just used the clam cleat for genoa/jib sheets, always with the cleat behind it if you ever really needed it. But NEVER put a knot in any sheet.

 

I thought you should always put a stopper knot at the end of a sheet so that you don't lose the line, no?

 

Better yet, do what works for you, thinking 3 steps ahead as to the ramifications . . .

 

One of the first things I noticed was how hard it was to tie off the jib sheets on a horn cleat. I have to take my hands off of the tiller (I try to keep the tiller tucked under my arm somehow) and tie the sheet on the horn cleat as fast as I can.

Have you tried doing two or more wraps around the cleat? I have found two hard wraps around the cleat, no figure 8s or cleat hitches, just two fast wraps will hold a jib sheet 'for now'. It allows you to get going on your new heading. If you have a little weather helm you can often steer with your leg while then fine tuning the jib and cleaning it properly if you feel the need. Although I often find on boat under 30' with some weathered sheets two wraps on a cleat holds a jib sheet fine.

 

I saw a lot of people with roller furlings in my marina but was shocked when I saw adding that to your boat will likely cost a couple grand. I am only in my 20s and still new to sailing so I plan to just stick with the old boat I have and then perhaps when I am older and a have a little more money in my pocket, then I will upgrade to a newer boat.

Haven't tried just two wraps around the cleat. Sounds like an interesting idea. In low winds that would probably work fine at least temporarily until I had the time to tie a figure-8 on the cleat. Perhaps I will give that a try when I go out on the boat this weekend. Thanks!

 

Did not mean to cause any tension here. I think it is awesome that everyone has different ways of doing it. It seems important that everyone picks something they are comfortable and confident with. To each his own.

Last question I have is do you guys advice I go with the winchers or the cam cleats. Seems like it will be about the same price either way.

 

Did not mean to cause any tension here.

Yep its all your fault.

Try the double wrap before investing any more on the boat. How do you sail it with your grandpa onboard or with a friend or by yourself?

I have had my eye on the Sun Yacht has been on my list of potential boats only because Robert Perry had a hand in its design. He is one the most prolific designers of great cruising boats of all time. Great first boat to own.

https://www.perryboat.com/

Does the boat have standing headroom below? What kind of motor does it have?

 

If it's a choice I'd go with the cam cleats first. Winchers can work well, but are even less secure.

 

I would agree. I seem to recall the sheet fell out of the winches pretty easily. I usually used the jam cleats instead of the winchers.

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Great, thanks for the feedback! I think that seemed like the consensus answer but just wanted to clarify. Happy sailing to all

 

Size of boat matters in all this, under 27 feet or so, I'd say regular winches, cross sheet, and use CLAM cleats (on an angle vertical below the winch). I've used cams, clams, horns, and jams for this, and the clams are the easiest to release and reset.

As the boat gets bigger, self tailing winches are a must, and yes if you are going to be on a tack for a long time then a horn cleat is a nice addition.

I always used horn cleats as a kid, we used them to race as well, and we did a single loop around the horn, then a figure 8, and never locked it.

My present boat has Barlow 28ST (32 foot C&C) and I like them, but they are actually a bit to big for the boat (require 3/4" line I think, I'm running 7/8 which feels way to heavy, and the STs still seem to slip a bit).

 

I think for now I might play around with wrapping the horn different ways and trying quicker knots because sometimes taking the time to do a full cleat hitch probably is not necessary, especially if I have to come back and trim them in a minute or so anyways. Then maybe next season I will look into adding cam or clam cleats. I appreciate hearing your take, thanks!

 

On this 25 foot (Capri 25) boat and up to a 27 footer, cross sheeting and a set of clams. This was fast, and easy to do. Trimming you grab the line between them pull, then take up the slack (on the high-side winch).

 

I'm a fairly new sailor as well. On my boat (San Juan 21) I have yet to use either winch, for anything. Jib sheets run to a track car with an eye and a cam cleat. Very easy to adjust, and the forces involved are easy enough for my 12 yr old to handle without need of a winch. If my wife and I are out by ourselves, she lays down on one cockpit seat and goes to sleep. I can tack single-handed by just giving the sheets a quick flip up to release, then haul in on the new working sheet.
So, is the larger jib on a 27' that much more force that a winch is necessary? Also, someone a way back mentioned never having a knot in a sheet. I was taught to put a figure 8 at the tail end to prevent the sheets flying free. I'm curious why that would be a bad thing? (Sorry to hijack the thread a bit)

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My first boat was a Hotfoot 20, and it had a very small jib, but I still found the winch was needed for upwind sailing in stronger winds. People just learning to sail often do not realize how tight the sails need to be for effective close hauled sailing unless they are racing. Even if you don't need to use the handles in the winch it is good to have a couple of wraps on it anyway. That way if the jib is flogging the winch will provide some friction to dampen the flogging a bit. It also acts as a fairlead to direct the sheet to where you are sheeting from.

In terms of stopper knots in sheets, the typical rule of thumb is to always put stopper knots in jib sheets, and never put stopper knots in spinnaker sheets.

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Skills, a 21 foot fractional rig sloop is going to have a handkerchief for a headsail, so I could see not using a winch at all, until it starts getting pretty snotty with wind (probably 20 knots).

To answer your question, yes, it becomes quite a handful as you go up in square footage of headsail. For example thanks to sailboatdata, your headsail at 100% is roughly 90 square feet (slightly bigger than a laser mainsail), whereas the Capri 25 (pictured above) with a 100% is roughly 150 square feet (due to it being a masthead rig, and larger boat). Add to that the picture is rigged for a 155% headsail, which puts it at nearly 225 square feet of headsail. The forces go up considerably with square footage, and its not linear.

There are way smarter people on here than I and could tell you all the forces involved, I can only give you anecdotal evidence, but on my fractional rigged S2 7.9 (a 26 footer) I could man handle the jib (105%) on it with no winch, but the jib (130%) of my masthead rigged Capri 25 (25 footer), always required at least a wrap on the winch, even in only 10 knots wind.

Presently on my C&C 32 (also a masthead rig), I really cannot manually trim the headsail (granted its a 155%) once winds get over 5 knots. However, with the winch, its easy as pie.

References sailboatdata:
San Jaun 21: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/san-juan-21
Capri 25: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/capri-25-catalina

 

Indeed, forces go up with the square. So it's an exponential growth, not linear. I started sailing on a 22-footer. Here there were tiny winches on the main, but they were never needed. Then I went up to a 26-footer. Here the mains are still pretty small, and were occassionally needed, but most of the time one wrap and a manual pull was usually more than adequate.

On my 34-footer the winches became larger, and more important, but still often one or two wraps and a pull got the job done much of the time. The winch handle came out more often, but not always.

Now on my heavy 37-footer, it's rare to be able to do anything without many wraps and cranking of the winch handle. Even light airs easily overpowers puny human strength. This, BTW, is why I choose to secure the tail ends to my horn cleats once trim is stable. It provides an easy backup should a failure occur.

 

Twas a spinnaker sheet and a pro captain for Hinckley. Very embarrassing. This was a long, long time ago, and they paid for the damage. But I never put a stopper knot in a sheet. I'd rather recover a free sheet than get hauled somewhere I don't want to go.

All of this discussion can be qualified by the boat you're sailing. I wrap the (non ST winch) on the old Bristol 35 yawl, clam cleat it and toss it around the horn cleat. I don't WANT to have to work it off the horn cleat on short notice if it's tight as a drum. Now I have ST's on the Tartan 37, no need for clam cleats, and a standing cleat aft.

I have cam cleats on the companionway with traveler control lines led aft. But I also have a couple clam cleats either side of the companionway. Contrary to what I read above, none of my 40-50 year old clam cleats show significant wear and hold a line nicely, release when I want. But there's always a horn cleat nearby.

 

I will argue semantics with jephotog...
I'd never wrap more than 1 wrap around the leeward winch on a tack (overrides above a single wrap happen frequently in a tack if you do, which can be dangerous under load to untangle).

I solo sail - a lot. So its wrap a single wrap around the leeward winch, start your tack (release the cleat or self-tail, but not the whole spool yet), wait until the jib/genoa backs wind. In one motion, flip the stack of line off the former windward winch (if you practice it a lot, you can use a lasso motion and flip it off), and sheet the coming windward winch with the other hand. Take up the slack and follow through into the tack. If you are coming close on the wind again, as soon as practical, add 1, 2 or 3 wraps (and if you have it the tail around the ST). Trim your main, and then trim your jib/genoa. Remember overshoot your tack a bit, your aim is to power up and harden up (direction, and sails) as you gain back your lost speed to the tack.

This is how you do it solo. Obviously if you have crew, you can synchronize your crew by teaching each member a step and timing, and then you can focus on your smooth turning through the tack such that you lose less speed. This is how we'd train new race crew. Forcing one crew to "always release," one to "always sheet" the one wrap method, and then the releaser became the extra wrap and tailer while the always sheet crew would winch.

Training mainsheet trimmers is way more involved, but you get the idea. There are tons of books on all this, and are way more precise than I. Of course timing to puffs/lulls is a job, and dumping and pumping the traveler is a task, and sometimes you break up mainsheet trim, and traveler (depending on size of boat).

Can get into all kinds of other trim duties, such as vang, and genoa cars, and backstay, but above are the basics.

 

I've always used cam cleats for jib sheet control. I sail in a small bay and am rarely on a long tack... so there are very frequent tacks. Rather than using horn cleats/jam cleats which require a wrap around, I've found the cam cleats easier to use. The V-cleats/clam cleats can work, too... but I've always found with V-cleats the line often falls back down into the V and locks the line down when I need it to be free.
Also, I've found cam cleats easier since I sail single handed most of the time. I usually get swivel cam cleats or extreme angle cams so that no matter where I am in the cockpit, I can control the jib.

Experience will teach you what works best in your situation. Just get out there and do it.