Sounds to me like you have a case. It is all about taking measures to manage your boat in a reasonably sea worth fashion to ensure that your boat does not damage others property. Would an extra spring line on your neighbor's boat have been a reasonable precaution? No doubt. Would it have been reasonable for you to hang a fender between your boats? Perhaps. It would have been especially 'reasonable' for you to go down to your boat to check on it knowing that there was a storm approaching.
I hope your neighbor has insurance as it is my guess that you would be awarded at least half the amount of damages by his insurance.
Get a repair estimate. The damage does not sound as if the boat cannot be saved. Better yet, post some pictures of the damage and you will get plenty of advice about fixing it.
Sorry for your loss and good luck.

 

I'd say you have a good argument. Your neighbors boat hit yours and caused damage. It should be their responsibility no matter what the cause.

If a powerboat makes a wake near a marina they are responsible for any damage that the wake may cause. If your cars rolls down your driveway and hits the car across the street, it is your fault weather you had the parking break set or not....

 

I'd say you have a good argument. Your neighbors boat hit yours and caused damage. It should be their responsibility no matter what the cause.

If a powerboat makes a wake near a marina they are responsible for any damage that the wake may cause. If your cars rolls down your driveway and hits the car across the street, it is your fault weather you had the parking break set or not....

That is not exactly how the law works. What you are describing is strict liability. In the US, there must be negligence.

Here is an example. I am driving a powerboat through a marina at a safe speed. All of a sudden, I have my first ever epileptic seizure that I had no reason to think I was at risk of having. I cut your boat in two and send it to the bottom.

Do I have any liability? No.

If I had my 10th such seizure, then I am negligent for operating a vessel in my condition.

This case in the OP seems ripe for a negligence claim, but it depends on the exact circumstances. If the cleats pulled out through no fault of the boat owner, then no liability, etc.

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if the severity of the storm was atypical, then you'll have a hard time making a case against your slip neighbors. If your boat is the only one damaged, then maybe, but it's likely it will be blamed on the storm rather than your neighbors poor job of securing his boat.

Good luck.

 

As boaters we should secure our boats for the atypical storm, and I think that's what we all can expect of our neighbors. Atypical is an tricky word - a storm that didn't seriously damage the docks themselves wouldn't seem so severe, certainly not in the serious storm category - a hurricane does its damage by carrying away the floats, or lifting boats over the pilings. I would expect the other boater to cover any repair costs, and hopeully with out a lawsuit. (Several years ago I found my stern rail bent. Noticing a bent fluke on the anchor of the Hunter 34 on the next mooring over, I asked the owner if the two had a relationship. He admitted hitting my boat, but thought there was no damage, and agreed to pay the $900 for a replacement rail out of his pocket.)

 

If the storm wasn't some unforseen catastrophic event, then it was one of those unpleasant but expected bursts of weather that a vessel is supposed to be moored strongly enough to resist. Yours did, his didn't, and nothing failed except his stern line. Seems like valid grounds for a claim.

You may want to get insurance in the future (though sometimes the cost for old classic boats is prohibitive or coverage unavailable), then recovery against the other boat would be your underwriters' problem and not yours.

 

Thanks for your advice and comments. That storm must have come out of nowhere. All I knew is that it rained last night. I had intentions of enjoying a beautiful day with 13+ mph breeze when I discovered the damage today. I spoke to the Park Ranger who saw it and he agreed that the other boat should have been secured better.

Well, I've owned this boat for over 18 years and I really had some wild times with it! I figured if I lost it at this point, I would have gotten my use out of it. That's why I didn't insure it.

I'll be working on getting some photos posted

Thanks!

 

I won't be able to show photos until I have 10 posts.

 

Goto the song chain in off-topic and post up 6 of the worst songs you ever heard

 

Sounds like with pictures, you could take him to small claims court and win. Suggest you call him and ask him if he has insurance and if so...to notify them that his boat hit you and to contact you for a survey of the damage.
If he does not have insurance...tell him you will get a quote for the work and that you expect to be compensated since his boat caused the damage. If he objects...then you can bring him to small claims.

 

That's what I intend to do. By small claims you mean up to $500 damage?
I don't know what fiberglass guys charge, but I would think the cost would exceed $500...I'm taking the boat out of the water tommorow, and will try to get some quotes...

Thanks

 

Cam-

From the description, it may be more than a small claims court case can go for. In many states the limit is $5000 or less.

 

You could be right dawg...but I figured $5k for a repair on a 40 year old 20' boat probably would cover most damage. I am NOT familiar with the boat...would love to see a picture of better days too Whitewater!

 

It is probably fixable.

Whitewater7,

First of all this was not catastrophic event as in a hurricane, flood or earth quake. It was a predicted storm that had some nasty effects so the owner should have kept his boat in the best reasonably docked status he could. He did not.

2) Keep posting to this thread until you get to the point where you can upload pictures.

3) If you can see that much water through your hull you need some serious repair work. I would cut out some fiberglass heavy cloth and epoxy it in place using a 5 min. epoxy and pins to hold it in place. Then I would start coating it with regular marine epoxy and adding layers of cloth as I built it up. For the outside of the hull above water (freeboard) I would use some 1/8" plywood (poplar, luan or whatever) to create a mold as you have suggested. You will have to get creative about making clamps that will hold the mold in place. As it turns out, wood is still cheaper than fiberglass so you can make your mold from wood.

4) I am assuming that your boat is made out of plastic, aka; fiberglass, FRP, GRP etc. Get the West System how to manual about using their product. http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|9489|145953&id=805686

5) You are in some ways lucky that you were un-insured (if you can fix your boat up with monies that are coming your way) as insurers will condemn a boat as a complete and total loss (CTL) if the damage reaches above about half of the boats value. Once you place a claim they will then own your vessel and all the equipment on board if they condemn it as a CTL. In this case you will have to buy it back from them and they will write a check for the amount of the policy minus the amount you paid to buy it back. If your boat neighbor has insurance this could be important to you.

6) It is not that difficult to repair these kind of damage. You will learn a lot in the process. Pictures would help, so keep posting.

 

Whitewater7,

First of all this was not catastrophic event as in a hurricane, flood or earth quake. It was a predicted storm that had some nasty effects so the owner should have kept his boat in the best reasonably docked status he could. He did not.

2) Keep posting to this thread until you get to the point where you can upload pictures.

3) If you can see that much water through your hull you need some serious repair work. I would cut out some fiberglass heavy cloth and epoxy it in place using a 5 min. epoxy and pins to hold it in place. Then I would start coating it with regular marine epoxy and adding layers of cloth as I built it up. For the outside of the hull above water (freeboard) I would use some 1/8" plywood (poplar, luan or whatever) to create a mold as you have suggested. You will have to get creative about making clamps that will hold the mold in place. As it turns out, wood is still cheaper than fiberglass so you can make your mold from wood.

4) I am assuming that your boat is made out of plastic, aka; fiberglass, FRP, GRP etc. Get the West System how to manual about using their product. http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|9489|145953&id=805686

5) You are in some ways lucky that you were un-insured (if you can fix your boat up with monies that are coming your way) as insurers will condemn a boat as a complete and total loss (CTL) if the damage reaches above about half of the boats value. Once you place a claim they will then own your vessel and all the equipment on board if they condemn it as a CTL. In this case you will have to buy it back from them and they will write a check for the amount of the policy minus the amount you paid to buy it back. If your boat neighbor has insurance this could be important to you.

6) It is not that difficult to repair these kind of damage. You will learn a lot in the process. Pictures would help, so keep posting.

CalebD....thanks for your reply. What kind of pins am I going to use to hold that 5 minute epoxy in place?

THNXS!!

 

Well, I've owned this boat for over 18 years and I really had some wild times with it! I figured if I lost it at this point, I would have gotten my use out of it. That's why I didn't insure it.

I am not sure I understand. The boat is not worth insuring and you feel you have gotten your use of it but.... it is perfectly acceptable to sue another boater who had some bad luck. I must be missing something...

Many marinas require insurace before slip rental is allowed.

This may be a great time to make a new friend. Have him pick up the repair materials and you both do the work together with knowledged learned and shared form this site.

 

That's a nice thought, but why should I bite the bullet for this persons negligence?

I am not going to rake this guy over the coals, and I am not the court room type either..

Our (PA) State run marina does not require insurance. I met my neighbors parents down there today. They told me he only paid $2K for his boat.

It's hard to place a value on my boat due to it's rarity, but odd boats genarally aren't generally worth much. I doubt if I could sell it for $3K with the motor, and that was before the damage.

 

Mentalfee,

What is the difference between self insurance and brand name marine insurance? If someone damages your property (be it floating or on land), why are they not liable for damages caused by their property?

Perhaps you are right though and it is a "time to make a new friend" and have him help you with the repair. I sincerely doubt that and I don't want someone's half a$$ed attempts at repairing my boat when I can do it better.

Perhaps I disagree.

 

Photos

Has anybody ever seen another Severn 20?
This photo was taken in 1992. We both got heavier…

THE DAMAGE
My boat is on the right;

Port Side

Inside Starboard

Inside port (not as bad)

 

Whitewater...small claims court lets you go up to $5000 bucks without a lawyer. You should be able to recover the full amount of the damage repair cost if you win BUT the boat may not be worth what the repair will cost. Hope you have pictures of HIS boat in YOUR slip...otherwise it will be tough to prove fault. Hopefully you can just give him the quote and collect a check without the court deal.

 

Umm... that's not damage to the rubrail. Those photos basically show that he destroyed the hull-deck join, which is not a simple repair on most boats. Chances are more than good that that repair job, done properly, is more than a couple of grand.

As Cam said, you do need photos of his boat and the way it was secured.

 

MOst surveyors do insurance work, I would contact one in your area. State explicitly during the conversation that you want a insurance claim valuation. It'll probably run $250-400 bucks. He can tell you what a insurance company will most likely do in this case as insurance companies typically follow lead on surveyors recommendations.

You can use that survey to negotiate with the boatyard a fixed cost for repair. If you go in with no insurance or valuation of what the cost of repairs should be, you'll be TMI for sure and from the looks of it the damage for owner paid and no counter insurance will be in the 5-8K easily.

Above said advice is for you dealing with his insurance company, or if you are trying to validate whether the boat is worth the cost of repairs, or if the owner of the other boat has no insurance but is willing to pay for the repairs.

Best wishes...

 

I think it is pretty safe to assume that the other guy likely doesn't have insurance. He has a boat that he only paid 2k for and is in a public state owned/run marina that doesn't require insurance. It's not going to happen. If he only paid 2k for his own boat, how much do you think he is going to be willing to pay for someone elses boat? (Or have the ability to pay for that matter.)

I think you are going to have to approach they guy with the problem and see what he is willing to do, but I think you are likely going to be doing the repair yourself on a shoestring budget. Jody- I think your idea is sound in reguard to the survey, but only if you can get it done pretty cheap. The Surveyor may not cost as much if they are only looking specificly at the damage. I can't see spending 10% of the value of the boat for the survey alone, before the repair is even started.

Just my $.02

 

Based on the photo's, SD has it - cost to repair exceeds value of the boat (other than sentimental value), if the repair is done professionally. If the boat is done as a DIY project it becomes a larger issue of doing it correctly as it does indeed appear to be the hull deck join that is broken. Structual integrity has been compromised.
Not a deal breaker, just saying.

As to the legal issues, talk to the marina managers, read your contract with the marina - I'd be willing to bet that all the info you need is right there. Your slip rental agreement most likely has words detailing your responsibility to fix /compensate for damage your boat causes, so will his, end of story until it comes time to collection.

 

First, you should have had insurance, if the boat was rare enough to make it stand out.
Go to your marinia office and I will bet you, there is a statement in the slip contract saying that each boat owner is responsible for damages their boat might cause if it isn't moored right and with forethought to possible storms that can come up this time of year.

Good Luck,

Chief
s/v Blue Bayou

 

If I had a more expensive boat, yes, I would have insurance. Now that this situation happened, I see the need for insurance, just in case I ever get sued.

On the way back from the marina today, I was lucky to get an estimate on the fly at a local boat dealer. An official written estimate costs $115, their hourly rate (they were nice to not charge me).

Roughly, the repair which includes a replacement rub-rail will take about 15-20 hours labor; $1795-$2300. That's about what the boat is worth (without the motor)

Thanks for your help. I'll let you guys know what happens.

 

Roughly, the repair which includes a replacement rub-rail will take about 15-20 hours labor; $1795-$2300. That's about what the boat is worth (without the motor)

Keep in mind an estimate is just an estimate - and usually designed to just get you in the door. Actual bill will most likely differ, as they start to tear things apart and discover other issues. Having been a appraiser for a shop - you are looking at a much higher out the door bill of 5-8K IMHO.

 

boat damage

Sounds like an Act of God. Big storms happen and boats get damaged, it happens. You are going to prove that his boat did "more" damage to you boat, HOW? What percentage did your boat incur on it's own? How are you going to determine that?

You have an old boat in "good shape". From an insurance settlement perspective old boats in good shape do not have much $ value.

How much are you talking about? You could easily find an attorney to take a lame case if you are willing to front the dollars. But what are you going to net out. Definitely an alienated neighbor. The reputation along the docks of being an .............

Fix the boat if it is that important to you.

DW

 

An act of God?..It looks like some negligence helped this occurance.
Not having a springline on the other side contributed to the break too.
It wasn't fastened to the dock properly and look at how it is attached to his boat:

His stern line wouln't have frayed and broke if he had a springline.

 

incompetent vs. negligent.......

So you get your day in court and everyone is riveted to your discussion of springline deployment.......................... If we took all the incompetent people out of boats where would we be then.... Be all the room in the world at the dock now. That would be my defense, incompetence. You have to know what you are doing to be negligent. He can plead stupidity.

If you are looking for some sympathy, you got a fair amount of it. I just read the original post and all the replys and thought to my self you got to be kidding. You need more in your life to occupy yourself than taking pictures of frayed rope and comiserating about your neigbor's boating incompetence.

Get over it. Sell the boat and get something else if the sight of it is going to upset you about the injustice of incompetent neighbors, big unexpected storms, and boats that go bump in the night.

I recall a client I had when I was in the insurance business. Someone had put a glass on his $40,000 dinner table and it left a ring. He wanted the table replaced. We offerred to fix it. "He could not live knowing when he had guest that the table was repaired". You don't have a brother in Denver?

DW

 

So you get your day in court and everyone is riveted to your discussion of springline deployment.......................... If we took all the incompetent people out of boats where would we be then.... Be all the room in the world at the dock now. That would be my defense, incompetence. You have to know what you are doing to be negligent. He can plead stupidity.

If you are looking for some sympathy, you got a fair amount of it. I just read the original post and all the replys and thought to my self you got to be kidding. You need more in your life to occupy yourself than taking pictures of frayed rope and comiserating about your neigbor's boating incompetence.

Get over it. Sell the boat and get something else if the sight of it is going to upset you about the injustice of incompetent neighbors, big unexpected storms, and boats that go bump in the night.

I recall a client I had when I was in the insurance business. Someone had put a glass on his $40,000 dinner table and it left a ring. He wanted the table replaced. We offerred to fix it. "He could not live knowing when he had guest that the table was repaired". You don't have a brother in Denver?

DW

Duck, I gave you Pos reps for your first post but the system wouldn't let me give you any more for the second. So I have to respond.

If you don't have insurance for your boat then you damn well better make sure your neighbors have good dock lines.

I am no fan of insurance companies but they aren't your fairy god-mother for Pete's sake.

Take responsibility.

 

Duckwheat-

There's a big difference... the OP doesn't want his boat replaced... just repaired. If this happened to your boat, and you didn't have insurance, I'm pretty sure that you'd be looking at the owner of the other boat to make good the damage to your boat.

 

Duckwheat, those pictures will come in handy to prove my point. I'm lucky I have time to chase down all of this stuff.

No other boats on the marina were damaged that night.

Your comparison of a water stained table top doesn't have a corellation here.