WW7...The estimate you got was WAY low...you have significant hull deck damage...not rub rail replacement. Your damage exceeds the value of the boat. You will most likely get the value of the boat if you go to court and win but you will need to document the repair cost...spend the $115...and also document the value of your boat.
Have you talked to the other boat owner yet?

 

I spoke to him tonight. He's a nice guy and said it's his first boat.
He does have insurance; he mentioned a $1K deductible.

I hope I can convince his insurance company (Erie) to help me out.
What do you think my chances are of them giving me some money, considering my lack of insurance?

 

Hmm... you're probably going to need to get a surveyor out to do a full survey of the damage, since it is more than the rubrail. Just from the limited photos you've posted previously, it is pretty obvious that there is damage to the deck, the hull, the hull deck join on the starboard side... the damage on the port side, which you mention in passing, is probably related, due to your boat getting hit and bashed into the finger pier. There are probably other structural problems from this as well.

I seriously doubt that the starboard side damage alone can be repaired for what you were quoted, even if you went with the high-end estimate.

 

You should be able to provide the insurance company with a bill for repair estimate of $5k or so and a valuation of the boat...and get a check for the value of the boat. I don't think your neighbors $1k deductible applies to YOUR damage as that is liability coverage. He will be out that much for his own repairs. If the insurance company tells you "no" just tell them you are taking him to small claims court for the amount of repair and lost time on your boat and slip fees while being repaired. They won't like that..nor will they want to send a lawyer which is more expensive than the claim. You will get your $$.

 

deductible..

The deductible does not apply. It only applies to damage to his boat. The damage to your boat would be under his liability coverage.

The insurance company may give you a few hundred if they think it would make you go away. If they do not get that feeling they will probably tell you to take a hike. Then it is up to you to sue them.

Good luck.

DW

 

An update

I explained what happened to the other persons insurance company (Erie), and was told a claims adjuster would call me. It's been over a week, and they didn't call. I was hoping they would assess the damage without me having to tow the boat around to get official estimates.

I explained what happened to my insurance company (State Farm). I was told that since I have home owners insurance, I would have liability coverage if someone gets hurt on my boat AND up to $1000 coverage in the event of a "peril". My insurance company's agent said that they couldn't help me because my boat was damaged by the other person's boat!

The other insurance company says they don't cover damage caused by a storm.

So it seems that both insurance company's are dropping the ball, so to speak. Shouldn't the insurance companies be working this out between themselves, instead of me?

Happy Holiday weekend everybody!
Fortunately, I have a canoe, and will be out on the water too!

 

Shouldn't the insurance companies be working this out between themselves, instead of me?

They have worked it out and decided that they are not responsible to pay you anything.
You next move is to take the OWNER to small claims court for the amount of damages. You will win with the proper evidence and then HE can fight with his insurance company over what they owe HIM.
BW...I've never heard of an insurance policy that denies liability for damage to someone else's boat based on the weather except in a NAMED storm. I think that is BS. But it doesn't really matter to you. Just sue the owner.

 

Before suing the owner, you need to make a reasonable effort to get this amicably resolved. The court will look for that in making their determination. When I posted on the front end of this thread, I was thinking this was a major storm that tossed a lot of boats around. In viewing your photo of his dockline, though, and based on your statement that the only boat damaged is yours, I agree with you that the neighbor is culpable.

I would write a letter that identifies the issues (politely) and makes a clear statement of what your looking for. Keep just to the bare facts - storm came, his boat was inadequately secured, his boat damaged your boat. Also, don't just say you want your boat repaired. Have a repair estimate from a local yard and make a provision for unforeseen costs.

Suggest that he utilize his insurance company and give him a reasonable amount of time to respond (5 or 7 days). If he doesn't, sue him.

 

I just checked my mailbox and did recieve a letter from Erie. They want to talk to me. At least I know the ball is rolling.

Thanks for your advice and comments. I've never sued anybody before, so your opinions have been very re-assuring. I'll let you know about the final outcome.

 

Yeah...keep us posted as this is interesting WW...also...follow Jason's advice rather than my short "sue him" advice as that should really be the last step and he should be given a chance to pay himself before dragging him to court. I was just thinking that if HIS insurance company is giving him a hard time then he may NEED you to sue him so he has proof of his liability in the case. Good luck!

 

Insurance and boat damage

I realize I am getting in to this a week late, but I would like to offer some advice if you have not proceeded with some other action. Essentially, your problem is that you didn't bother to adequately insure your own property against damage. You apparently have only a homeowners policy, which as you said provides liability coverage and some small amount of property damage. Since the other party's insurance company knows that you don't have your boat properly insured, they will probably ignore you. Doesn't your marina require some sort of minimum coverages and proof of insurance? I really don't want to sound like a jerk here, but I think you may possibly be out of luck. I hope not for your sake, but in the future if you have anything you can't afford to lose, get it insured.

 

Jgeissinger-

How does whitewater's lack of adequate insurance mitigate the other boater's responsibility to properly tie up his boat and secure it for a storm???? Just curious as to what bassackwards thinking comes up with that logic.

 

Before you jump all over me SD. (notice I said before not lest), All I'm saying is that if it were me (and I suspect you), I would have made sure that my neighbors vessel was tied up properly if I were going to be absent from my own for any length of time.

If, for some reason I was afraid of adding a line to my neighbors boat then I damn sure would have hung a sh!# load of fenders over the side I was worrying about.

If I wasn't worrying at all then I don't have anyone to blame but myself.

 

Insurance

Sailingdog, it is very simple. If he had adequate coverage, his insurance would have repaired his boat and then decided, by communicating with other insurance carrier, whether there was liability on the part of the other boat owner. At that time his company could try to recover the damages from the other party. The point is that this would all be done by the insurance companies. All he would have to do is get his boat repaired, and not go through all this hassle. Also, there's really no need to yell.

 

Sailingdog, it is very simple. If he had adequate coverage, his insurance would have repaired his boat and then decided, by communicating with other insurance carrier, whether there was liability on the part of the other boat owner. At that time his company could try to recover the damages from the other party. The point is that this would all be done by the insurance companies. All he would have to do is get his boat repaired, and not go through all this hassle. Also, there's really no need to yell.

That's a load of hooey! The other insurance company is likely trying the standard practise of making any recovery as inconvenient as possible. Just because they wouldn't pull the same malarkey with another insurance company doesn't make the practise reputable.

Carrying insurance on a two thousand dollar boat is a waste of money unless you get a rider stating that you're paying for replacement value. And we all know what that would cost. The idea that Whitewater should have insurance so that his company can do what his own simple phone call and explanation are capable of doing is the type of thinking designed to line the pockets of insurance companies for little of value to the purchaser.

There's more than enough of insurance companies running rough-shod over the little guy already without encouraging more of the practise. And, if it sounds like I'm yelling it's because I'm sick and tired of such corporations not doing what they are contractually obligated to do without the other party hiring a damn lawyer. Maybe Erie will step up and all will be dealt with appropriately but neither Whitewater, nor the insured boat's owner, should have to go through this. And shame on you for implying Whitewater's negligence in not carrying insurance.

 

Knotty,
I think it's a rational decision based upon the owner's knowledge of his lack of insurance; he'll use and take care of the boat in a manner befitting his lack of coverage. In this case, there is another responsible party and so his decision to carry or not carry should be moot.

 

I believe that ALL CAPS is considered yelling, boldface would be considered speaking loudly (which is what Cam used on his previous post). In this case I have to side with Sway. Hell and gosh darn, a brand new Sunfish probably costs around 2 G's. Does anyone in their right mind get marine insurance on them (besides perhaps a club with a fleet for LIABILITY purposes)?
Now I know that WhiteWater's boat ain't no Sunfish but it also ain't a new Colgate 26 or anything like the comparable value of said asset. A few years premiums for insurance would equal the value of the boat. That said, if you do not insure directly, you self-insure, meaning you can cover any liabilities arising from your boat AND damage to your own (which would include disposing of it if it came to that).
In this case the other boat owner is likely liable for damages for inadequately securing his vessel to the dock. I think he really needs to get a marine surveyor to come and do a damage/loss survey that should indicate the liability of his dock neighbor just to back his a$$ up should he end up in court. The survey would have to be considered 'testimony' from an expert witness, as it were, in a court. A surveyors report should carry a bit more weight with a judge than a bunch of pictures and explanations. A survey could also be forwarded to the insurance companies involved that are much happier to deal with surveyors than owners.

 

The liability here is from the poorly tied up boats' owner. I matters not at all whether he had insurance, whether the damaged boat owner had insurance or what any involved insurance companies have to say.

If one boat owner's negiligence ends up damaging your boat...then HE is responsible for fixing it or providing fair market value for the boat...whichever is less. You can get this resolution amicably from the owner, or from the owners insurance company but if push comes to shove, you can get it in small claims court.
Court is especially helpful if the owner is insured and the insurer will not pay because the insurer will needs to be represented in court by an attorney. (It's a rule for corporations). Attorneys going to court cost more money than the repair so the company WILL cut a check even if they think there is a chance they could win in court.
This comment applies only to small claims court and the specific circumstances related by Whitewater.

 

Thanks guys... as I said....

How does whitewater's lack of adequate insurance mitigate the other boater's responsibility to properly tie up his boat and secure it for a storm????

Simple. It doesn't.

 

Liability

Yes, of course I do. Going out of your way to throw in a personal attack was uncalled for and unnecessary. I get your point. Just let it drop, okay?

 

Lack of insurance.....

His lack of insurance is more indicative of the value he assigned the boat. He made the decision it was not worth much. From the pictes I would have to agree with his judgement. Now that the neighbors boat got loose it has become the Mona Lisa on water.

Nothing presented so far has "proved the neighbors negligence or liability". We just have whitwater's version of the occurrence.

I would like to put $10 on it WW gets blown off by the insurance companies. Small claims do not allow representation(lawyers) in most jursidictions.

Then he has to ask himself, the boat was not worth insuring, but it sure is worth suing the neighbor. I spent 12 years in the insurance business. The guy who called threatening to sue, was like a dog with no teeth. Yap, Yap.......... It was the letter notifying your client is getting sued is the only thing worth paying attention to.

Thoughtful as ever in Idaho

DW

 

You are going to make someone very rich, if they charge $5000 to fix that.
Get yourself 5 litres of WEST system, two part epoxy, some breathing masks and ear defenders. Go in with a grinder, and grind off those metal studs sticking down that will resist you closing the gap.
Put a big strap around the boat and ratchet it tight to close the gap.... close it and no more.
Slacken the rig until it's floppy.
Working form the inside, take the same grinder, and roughen up the GRP surfaces about 5" either side of the gap to give you a key for the WEST system.
Get yourself some GRP weave... say in 3 grades... coarse to fine.
Wet the weave with the two-part mix WEST system, wet the keyed surfaces.
Lay up the weave along the closed gap. Over-do it.... say 6" too long and 4" overlap each side.
Cut the next weave a little narrower and a little shorter.
Continue until it looks strong enough.
Make sure the job is continuous... no week-end breaks.
Do not slack the strap until the job is cured.
Tension your rig again.
Two part epoxy is very strong indeed.... just make sure that the job is not too stiff or too strong. Spread your repair stiffness. It does not look like it was very strong to start with.

At the end of the job it will not leak, and will be as good as it was, and you get to keep and use your boat, assuming you wanted to keep it.

You also don't have to bankrupt the guy next door. He will have problems fixing his own. Legally it sounds like it was a failed line on his boat that caused it, but there was nothing willfull about it. Why not fix both of them at once?. The jobs look very similar.... you learn so quickly when you have to.

Get him to buy some new mooring lines.

 

Then again.....why not just accept it as an accident and get a life ?

Why oh why do you Americans always believe that someone, ANYONE but them should have to pay for anything untoward that happens to them ???
It was America that started all this awful claim culture whereby any ******* can go out and do the dumbest, most stupid stuff, suffer some kind of injury or loss and then expect someone else, whether company or individual to pick up the bill because they were born with an IQ of 2.

So the guys mooring line broke, I'm sure he didn't think they were weak enough to break or he wouldn't have secured his own boat with them. So he made poor judgment - if that gives someone grounds to sue the courts will be full up for years to come taking care of all the dickheads who voted in Bush !
Hell, why not sue god for making the storm (I'm sure if he had an address to serve papers at some cretin would have done it by now - in fact if you believe Hollywood someone already has, for striking his boat with lightening)

Anyway, while your at it don't go for the measly cost of the repair, if ya gonna be a bear - be a grizzly. Go for mental stress too, that's got to be worth about $5,000,000, it was probably pretty hard on the 'lil lady at home as well having to listen to your pissing and moaning so she's gotta have something too for her subsequent depression, say $10,000,000 ?

And so with all that money you can go out and buy the powerboat you always really wanted......and a house with it's own mooring !

 

Why oh why do you Americans always believe that someone, ANYONE but them should have to pay for anything untoward that happens to them ???
It was America that started all this awful claim culture whereby any ******* can go out and do the dumbest, most stupid stuff, suffer some kind of injury or loss and then expect someone else, whether company or individual to pick up the bill because they were born with an IQ of 2.

So the guys mooring line broke, I'm sure he didn't think they were weak enough to break or he wouldn't have secured his own boat with them. So he made poor judgment - if that gives someone grounds to sue the courts will be full up for years to come taking care of all the dickheads who voted in Bush !
Hell, why not sue god for making the storm (I'm sure if he had an address to serve papers at some cretin would have done it by now - in fact if you believe Hollywood someone already has, for striking his boat with lightening)

Anyway, while your at it don't go for the measly cost of the repair, if ya gonna be a bear - be a grizzly. Go for mental stress too, that's got to be worth about $5,000,000, it was probably pretty hard on the 'lil lady at home as well having to listen to your pissing and moaning so she's gotta have something too for her subsequent depression, say $10,000,000 ?

And so with all that money you can go out and buy the powerboat you always really wanted......and a house with it's own mooring !

I was with you till you called me a ********.

IT'S KNOTHEAD DAMMIT

 

I have held my tongue, but no longer.

I can't help but wounder if the OP was so unwilling to write a check to insure his boat and if it was his boat that broke loose and damaged his neighbors boat how quick and willing he would he be write a check for the damage to his neighbor. He did not take responsibility for his own boat. If he did this matter would be between insurance Co's and not wasting space on sailnet.

There is also a coverage in marine insurance policy's that most people don't think about is fire legal labially. It pays if a fire starts on my boat and spreads to another boat or burns up half a marina. I cannot help wonder about the OP personal worth, I hope he has deep pockets as soon or latter he will need it. A person not insuring his boat is a hazard to all of us.

"The OP here had done his due diligence and taken responsibility for HIS OWN BOAT". I think not!

 

Yes, but the OP isn't responsible for his neighbors boat... Would it have been prudent to check his neighbor's boat... yes... was it his responsibility-NO. There's the difference.

Besides, who's to say that between the time the OP checked on his boat, and re-tied the neighboring boat, the neighbor didn't come down, use his boat, and re-tie it in his usual, careless fashion. That is why it is the responsibility of each individual boat owner to make sure his boat is properly secured.

Yes, fenders would have been prudent. But if the neighbor did his job right, they would have also been UNNECESSARY.

Bubb2-

I disagree. It was the owner's choice to not insure his boat... and he is liable for any damage that his boat causes if it should catch fire and damage other boats... however, that is his choice... he did do his responsibility as far as regards to storm preparation and proper dockline arrangements.

 

Would it have been prudent to check his neighbor's boat... yes...

Yes, fenders would have been prudent.

I guess thats where we disagree. In my mind being prudent is the most basic component of due diligence.

 

Dog, If the Op cause's damage lets hope he can write a check to cover it. As in most states we are required to carry coverage to protect us against uninsured motorists. It is people like this that costs you and I extra money as we insure our selfs against the know risks and costs us more when we have to pay extra to insure against the guys who don't carry insurance.

I hope he's never docked next to you. or me.

 

Most states don't require anything in the way of boat insurance. Most marinas do...but apparently his does not.

I agree with you that uninsured boaters cost us money... so do idiots who buy houses in floodplains...

Even if he were docked next to me or you, it wouldn't be a problem, since we probably have insurance to cover anything that happens.

Dog, If the Op cause's damage lets hope he can write a check to cover it. As in most states we are required to carry coverage to protect us against uninsured motorists. It is people like this that costs you and I extra money as we insure our selfs against the know risks and costs us more when we have to pay extra to insure against the guys who don't carry insurance.

I hope he's never docked next to you. or me.

 

I would hope that the OP has at least liability coverage. I was under the understanding that you had to in order to get a slip. If not, then OP - get it!

Some have suggested he should have noticed his neighbors lines and taken action to correct it. You can't do that. The day before Katrina came through, I noticed that my slip neighbor (an Islander 36) had almost no scope on his lines, no springs, and his sails and bimini were still up. He came out to "check" on the boat and it took a lot of talking just to get him to take the sails down (we had just had tropical storm that shredded a couple dozen sails throughout the marina and he was still reluctant). He soon left and I KNEW that is a major storm arrived, his boat would break loose. It did and it landed on my Triton. However, I would not want to be the last one that adjusted his lines. If it broke loose anyway, it would effectively be my fault.

Clayjay, what's all this "you Americans" crap? First, wherever you live, you have to accept responsibility if you damage someone else's property. George Washingtom himself first said, "You break it, you buy it." Also, in case you haven't been paying attention, you're either with us or against us, so get with the program.

 

Some have suggested he should have noticed his neighbors lines and taken action to correct it. You can't do that. The day before Katrina came through, I noticed that my slip neighbor (an Islander 36) had almost no scope on his lines, no springs, and his sails and bimini were still up. He came out to "check" on the boat and it took a lot of talking just to get him to take the sails down (we had just had tropical storm that shredded a couple dozen sails throughout the marina and he was still reluctant). He soon left and I KNEW that is a major storm arrived, his boat would break loose. It did and it landed on my Triton. However, I would not want to be the last one that adjusted his lines. If it broke loose anyway, it would effectively be my fault.

You can't do that??...... Maybe you can't but I damn sure can, have and would do it again. If someone wanted to sue me, more power to em, I would love the chance to defend myself against charges like that.

Katrina is a pretty extreme example. Was your slip-mate the only boat to break loose in your marina?