I have been planning a hard bimini for a while. I plan on using the thin veneer ply as you describe. I think I'll soak it with a thin penetrating epoxy and then paint it. No glass cloth. I plan on trimming the edges with an edge trimming product from Tacco Metals. They have U shaped PVC channels with an aluminum band for extra durability. Comes in several widths. It is a type of PVC that is OK outdoors. Comes in white. Perfect for this application.

 

Thanks.. have you tried to bend that product? I wonder what the minimum radius would be. Certainly would be a labour saving finishing touch. EDIT.. looked it up.. could be just the ticket!

Ron, do I understand that your intent is to just do a rigid piece over the top with existing see through sections canvas ? Sounds doable but I think the best part of a hard dodger is the solid windscreen. Otoh I acknowledge that solid windscreen, particularly if window is opening, would be much more work and expense that what I think you are proposing.

Yes, I am proposing as you understood. Our center window panel opens now, and we'd plan to keep that feature. Yes, a hard windscreen would make sense but as you say, more complicated (though possibly not more expensive than having the canvas/windows redone) The scariest part of that idea is how to bond it all to the existing (complicated) deckhouse profile in a way that doesn't scream amateur.

 

Ron, do I understand that your intent is to just do a rigid piece over the top with existing see through sections canvas ? Sounds doable but I think the best part of a hard dodger is the solid windscreen. Otoh I acknowledge that solid windscreen, particularly if window is opening, would be much more work and expense that what I think you are proposing.

Good luck with the glassing. I'm hopeless at that kind of stuff. It always ends up something of a dog's breakfast. Then again my klutz levels are fairly high and I remember the job you did on FF's bilge which turned out looking pretty ship shape.

 

The PVC? Yes, pretty tight radius, about the inside radius of a roll of painters tape. I have a pic on my phone I'll try to post. I made flip out solar panels with semiflex solar and made a backer out of celtec PVC. Trimmed with this stuff.

By the way, semiflex solar are very unreliable. My 2 renogy 100s died in 3 months. They wouldnt sell me replacements, took them off the market because of too many failures.

 

I plan to upgrade our aging dodger to a hardtop this spring. At this point the plan is to laminate it out of a couple of layers of thin Baltic Birch ply that we can get locally.

Obviously it'll need to be sealed/waterproofed, I plan to layer the edges up to give it some more visual bulk and herein lies a dilemma.

Small edges and roundovers are notoriously difficult to get cloth to stay down on. In addition I'll be adding ledges underneath for the remaining canvas sections to snap to, so more problematic tight corners.

Anyone have thoughts about simply epoxy sealing the resulting top, as opposed to a couple of layers of cloth before fairing and painting. I don't plan to be standing on this, don't need a great deal of strength, just a waterproof rigid top. Current handrails will go through the top and hold it to the existing frame. A small flexible solar panel will be used on this as well....

Faster,

I've been researching how I'm going to replace our dodger and bimini with hard tops as well.

I'll share the finalists in my order of preference by method and then approach. Your needs may lead you to re-order or do something different.

And the winner is...?

Using Starboard:

Rodger Dodger

Using prefab FRP Panels:

DIY Hard Dodger

DIY Hardtop Dodger

Homemade Hardtop

Fabrication from scratch:

How to build a hard dodger in only 14 days

New Hard Bimini

FYI in case this helps narrow your focus or gives you some ideas.

Cheers!

Bill

 

Thanks for that, Bill.. some good things to consider there. Thankfully I'm not looking at a 200 sq ft catamaran cover!!

I'd really like to avoid any visible fasteners on the top surface, and given the relatively small size I'm hoping the side handles (already through bolted onto the frame) will do the job of holding the top down, esp if it's precurved and not under stress. May still require some sort of centerline clip though. The other challenge is a lip/rim/channel that can accept the side curtains and front panel. A luff tape type extrusion could be the ticket there.

 

Hi Faster,

I agree, I'm glad mine isn't that large too...

A reduced number of through fasteners would be great. I haven't given that much thought yet, but I will need it well fastened as we occasionally get 70-90+ knots either briefly from intermittent williwas, or continuous with passing storms.

The 1/2" Starboard approach is supportive of both of these considerations.

I, too, plan to use the bolt rope track for curtains. Sailrite has a good selection, as others likely do as well.

I also intend to make a hard windshield something similar to what Andy described in his Rodger Dodger article.

Please keep us informed as your plans gel... I'll do the same but I am likely farther out than you from a start date...

Cheers!

Bill

 

My friends Jeanneau has such a dodger reported to have been fabricated by the original owner, it appears to be mounted to the original frame (I can't picture how right now) the windows do unzip. It seems to be fiberdlass with a plywood insert of teak and black chaulk which matches the seat inserts and cockpit decks. This is one of the better pictures I have of it, I'll take a closer look when I'm back at the boat next week.

 

1/2" starboard is expensive, heavy, and may not bend. If you dont need to stand on it, then go much thinner. The good thing is that you wont have to paint it. The bad thing is you CANT paint it!

 

Hi Xort,

You are right, the standard Starboard is somewhat heavy (compared to cored or thinner composites...) However, they also make an extra light [XL] version which sheds 30% of the weight [at the expense of having to finish the edges for aesthetics since it has the appearance of foam coring...] However, depending upon what strength is needed, it may not be much heavier, if at all , if one laminates an equal strength thickness of good marine plywood between two FRP skins...

[Note: King Plastics has 4 different Starboards available in a (very narrow) range of colors.]

I would argue whether is it too expensive depends upon the project. It might be faster to fabricate [and in the future repair/replace] a Starboard top than to laminate from scratch, or even make a core with off the shelf FRP panels. But this would not be my primary selection criteria. I'm after strength, structural integrity, and longevity.

Regarding bending Starboard, I suspect you made that comment before reading the article I posted earlier in this thread:

The good news is we have many choices of materials and approaches.

I thank those who have gone before us and additionally took the time to document and share their first-hand experiences.

Best wishes to us all with our hard-top projects.

Cheers!

Bill

 

AZEK hdpvc material comes in sheets of common thickness , *is* bendable and can be painted with proper methods. Likely much less expensive than Starboard, too Cut, shaped, sanded just like any wood product and can be laminated using available adhesives (Christie's red-hot) Classed (and actually) non-structural; but you said ya weren't gonna stand onnnit. anyway

 

Hey Ron, I would consider giving you the plans for this hard dodger for a nominal fee. Easy glass construction and as you can see it would be a pretty seamless addition to your boat. Let me know if you're interested. I also think you could stand on this one, or even take a sledge hammer to it and not have to worry.

 

Hey Ron, I would consider giving you the plans for this hard dodger for a nominal fee. Easy glass construction and as you can see it would be a pretty seamless addition to your boat. Let me know if you're interested. I also think you could stand on this one, or even take a sledge hammer to it and not have to worry.

Thanks John.. all my worries are now over. It's obvious that I've fretted way too much over this project. In fact, by the look of it I can forgo the fiberglass and go straight to green Duct tape! Also a very clever way to deal with leaking windows.. just cover them up!

Yowzah!?!

 

Several years ago I added a dodger hardtop made using Komocel, a sheet pvc product. A 4 x 8 x 10mm sheet is about $90, it can easily be worked with woodworking tools. The surfaces are shiny and hard pvc, the core is a bit softer so fender washers are a good idea. Mine is attached to the stainless frame with 1 inch SS straps from Harken and bolted with 1/4 20 screws and acorn nuts. Its worked out well and is going strong into the fifth season. This likely will be the year I finally sew and reinstall the sunbrella dodger underneath.

 

That looks great but isn't the PVC prone to UV degradation?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Bill
Thanks for the info on starboard. All I see at marine suppliers is the heavy standard starboard.
It will get consideration when I do my bimini.

 

Hi Xort,

I understand. All I ever see is the high density Starboard too...

And I'm not sure the lighter weight is the best choice depending upon the spans between support members [I sure would hate to see it sagging over time between the top frame tubes...] and having to finish the edges since the 'core' portion is less dense...

I'm still waffling between Starboard and laminating a thin foam or high quality marine plywood between two pre-fab FRP sheets...

Please let me know if you discover even more food for thought.

Thanks!

Bill

 

I plan to upgrade our aging dodger to a hardtop this spring. At this point the plan is to laminate it out of a couple of layers of thin Baltic Birch ply that we can get locally.

Obviously it'll need to be sealed/waterproofed, I plan to layer the edges up to give it some more visual bulk and herein lies a dilemma.

Small edges and roundovers are notoriously difficult to get cloth to stay down on. In addition I'll be adding ledges underneath for the remaining canvas sections to snap to, so more problematic tight corners.

Anyone have thoughts about simply epoxy sealing the resulting top, as opposed to a couple of layers of cloth before fairing and painting. I don't plan to be standing on this, don't need a great deal of strength, just a waterproof rigid top. Current handrails will go through the top and hold it to the existing frame. A small flexible solar panel will be used on this as well.

I agree with the idea of laminating 2 layers of thin ply with epoxy. Laminated in the proper curve it will be both strong and light. I would add a thin layer of glass and epoxy for long term protection. Careful with Baltic Birch though as the glue isn't waterproof, only resistant.

 

Ron, why not make it foam core - shape some scored Core-Cel or similar over your frame, put a skin of glass on the top then you can remove it all and take it home for finishing - glass both sides etc. The radii you are concerned about can be dealt with either by using thick core or by doubling the edges. Using 10 Oz. cloth will allow pretty tight radii without lifting.

 

Agree with Jon. My hard dodger is gel coated grp on divynicell. You can walk on it even two people can with no deflection. Used two layers of clear glass sandwiching a UV/strength membrane which can be tinted if you want. Didn't use any tint as sail 1/2 the time at night. Put in two opening tinted hatches on top for air flow. Put strong grab rail around three sides which you can also clip on. Brought it back enough that even with green water coming back you can stay dry. Love it. Best thing you can do to improve your boat. Also put tan on top to match deck which cuts down visual impact. Didn't put in non slid on top which was a mistake.

 

Unless you need to stand on it, why all the effort to laminate a complex sandwich?
I'm replacing sunbrella, any ply will be stronger than that! The very thin veneer ply can bend to the curve of the bimini bows. I have had great success with penetrating epoxy in sealing plywood. The taco metal pvc trim looks great for the edges.
So Im thinking of soaking the 1/4" ply in epoxy, painting the top with perfection, trimming with the taco pvc trim. I'll leave the underside the light wood color, which will look nice inside the cockpit, maybe a coat of varnish over the epoxy. I may add some kind of hardwood trim inside the edges of the top to fasten the channel for the issinglass windows.

BTW, I had great success putting an acrylic window in my sunbrella bimini. I plan on doing the same in the hard top. We'll make sunbrella shades for the underside to open up the view to the sails

 

I have considered using a fiberglass truck bed cover as a hard top to replace my bimini. They are almost exactly the correct length and if I cut them in half and added a plexi center piece (to see your sails) I could make it as wide as needed. They are strong, come in a variety of colors and cheap compared to a custom fiberglass cover.
For a dodger, perhaps a part of one would work for you.

 

I haven't read all the replies so I don't know if I'm repeating what's been said.
I saw a pretty impressive hard dodger that a guy in my marina in Kingston NY made from a molded pick-up truck cap, cut down and glassed in place. I think he reinforced under the top with plywood; it was rigid enough to walk on. I think the boat was a Grampian 41 (?) and it was a used cap from a compact pick-up.
I'd certainly do it that way if I were to take in such a project myself--this turned out really well. You couldn't tell, looking at it, that it wasn't original to the boat.

 

With this talk of truck canopies for dodgers, I recommend you read the
attached thread in its entirety first.

Ugly dodger collection - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

 

I'm partway through the above thread. Laughing so hard I have tears running down my face so I stopped for a breather.:laugh

 

1/8 Pultruded fiberglass sheet will bend to approx.18" radius... Why laminate, fair? Is even available in VE (vinyl ester) hence no blisters (lol) and a nice tan color too. BTW Faster...your boat looks awesome for being a1984! Good luck with your project! Cheers...

 

......Faster...your boat looks awesome for being a1984! Good luck with your project! Cheers...

Thanks.. but to be honest the pic's a decade old. The boat still looks pretty good but the dodger has seen it's day (still in one piece but looking rough.. therefore this project

As an aside, the leather patches were a bad idea in hindsight. The surface broke down fairly early leaving an unsightly edge that we couldn't clean up. it also seems to 'green up' over winter more than the sunbrella. Another oversight would appear to be the thread used by the builder - rotted out long before the sunbrella showed an issues, we've had to restitch most of it.

 

Another good link which describes a DIY hard dodger build that came out looking pretty nice is at:

jacaranda-journey

Its number 9 in their list of Cruising Ideas and Tips.

Marc Hall
Crazy Fish - Maintaining, Upgrading and Sailing a Crealock 37

 

Since we are off the subject...Tenera thread is the way to go on Sunbrella...guaranteed to outlast fabric by mfg.
I thought long and hard about a hard dodger...I built a hard Bimini to cure the stainless steel city on the back of my boat. Kinda a radar arch with a long bill fwd) I built in aluminum 0.060 skin...not DIY for most. I inset the PV and it passes as not too ugly, super functional. Anyway the aluminum and solar panels sweat profusely, in Florida that translates to algae and mold/mildew. You have smoothly crowned bows (mine have corners) with the struts/stiff bars (if not already done this way) could rivet stainless saddle type rail fittings and clear the top of the bow. I think the Pultruded sheet would form quite nicely, with a bit of a bill will hide awning track, might even be able to epoxy a half round underneath the bill to get away from "home built" look...maybe aft too. In reading your posts, I have a good idea that you know a thing or two...I am sure you will do a fine job on this project.
Anyway in the end I chickened out and had a friend stitch up a new dodger in exchange for a/c install.

 

Update:

We finally got around to getting this done and installed, the latter literally within an hour of departing for our recent 7 weeks afloat. The hardtop was fairly straightforward, the canvas portion not quite so simple, in the end a (good) friend with a good machine did it for us.

I stuck with plan A, ie laminated Baltic Birch ply, two layers of 1/8 with an additional two layers around the edges for visual bulk. It's quite light, doubt it weighs more than 10 lbs. This plywood comes in 5'x5' sheets, I'd have liked a few inches wider but decided to avoid any seams. Cost was $17/sheet and two did it with leftovers.

The whole thing is sealed in an Amine-free epoxy https://systemthree.com/products/silvertip-laminating-epoxy-resin since we planned to paint this thing and have had bad experience with paint and amine blush before. Nice stuff to work with, almost crystal clear and it took about $100 worth to thoroughly seal the piece.

Since I wanted a good match with the deck gelcoat (and couldn't tint Brightsides) I took a small hatch cover to a local Home Hardware and they matched a can of Rustoleum ($15) very nicely indeed. The paint went on nicely, and no issues to date (it is early, though, and interested to see how all this weathers over the winter)

I glued on some pads to clamp it to the frame at the midpoint using some small modified West Marine tangs, and though the original plan was to secure the top at the sides with the handles, we ended up using SS carriage bolts through the frame, and bolted the handles through the top with heavy washers for backup. I liked the smooth look of the carriage bolt heads over the hex bolt heads. We also added a central handle at the aft edge, which turned out to be a very useful, natural handhold esp in a seaway.

Another unforeseen benefit has been the increased brightness below (white overhead rather than blue canvas) and, hand in hand with that, cooler in the shade with the more reflective top.

The results below:

 

Wow, that's just beautiful. I sure would love to find someone to build us one of those down here.

 

That turned out great. I love those hard/soft dodger combos.

 

Stbd ss not something I'd build something structural out of. It is not very stiff, bends easily and is god awful heavy. 1/4" marine ply with the edges doubled to 1/2" or thicker with a layer of glass glass cloth over would make a dandy top. You'd still have to make an armature to bend the plywood over but you could do that out of two pieces or so of scrap lumber. I was going to do mine out of foam glassed over inside and out but it wouldn't hold fasteners to attach it to a frame or add grab handles and canvas fasteners. Everything would have to be through bolted and the fastener holes reamed out and filled with epoxy to take compression. It would be light, would take a bit of skill to form and glass.