What sailboats being produced today are blue water sailable? I just want to take a peek at the design differences from older boats to the new modern ones. Preferably in the 25-30 foot range. Thank you!
-
SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!
Jhiggy
Very few boats produced in that size range that are even offshore capable never mind blue water.
Nowadays people think Gunboat 60 for a RTW.
Nowadays people think Gunboat 60 for a RTW.
There are very few boats with that size that we could call bluewater boats. In the general view a bluewater boat is a boat specifically designed for offshore work. I would prefer to call it small boats with an offshore potential.
There are not many because since the introduction of the RCD to be able to sail offshore they have to pass the criteria for class A boats and few boats with that size (25 to 28ft) have the conditions to be approved. If old boats were submitted I believe that almost all would fail too.
For being really small (25/28) and be able to pass the criteria they have to be unsinkable. The smaller I know off approved as a Class A boat is this one:
Interesting Sailboats: DJANGO 7.70 on a CIRCUMNAVIGATION
These two are favorites of many:
Interesting Sailboats: RM 890, ONE OF THE BEST RM EVER
probably you have noticed that they are all beamy boats. Yes they are beamy but with a low CG and a good AVS. Being beamy and with a low CG is a sure way to increase overall stability that in a small boat is never too much. They are also heavily influenced by mini solo racers and are light and fast boats.
Regarding more traditional type of boats I would suggest you look at the Dehler 29 that is one of the boats that have been more time in production among the ones that are made by mass production builders. A great boat.
http://www.dehler.com/#/gb/29/exterieur/
Or to the more modern Winner 9.0 (I don't know if they have managed to approve it as class A)
Sail-World.com : Yacht Feature: Winner 9.00, 'European Yacht of the Year' nomination
I believe that among the two type the superior overall stability and better dynamic stability will make the first one more suitable but again, I would not call them bluewater boats.
There are not many because since the introduction of the RCD to be able to sail offshore they have to pass the criteria for class A boats and few boats with that size (25 to 28ft) have the conditions to be approved. If old boats were submitted I believe that almost all would fail too.
For being really small (25/28) and be able to pass the criteria they have to be unsinkable. The smaller I know off approved as a Class A boat is this one:
Interesting Sailboats: DJANGO 7.70 on a CIRCUMNAVIGATION
These two are favorites of many:
Interesting Sailboats: RM 890, ONE OF THE BEST RM EVER
probably you have noticed that they are all beamy boats. Yes they are beamy but with a low CG and a good AVS. Being beamy and with a low CG is a sure way to increase overall stability that in a small boat is never too much. They are also heavily influenced by mini solo racers and are light and fast boats.
Regarding more traditional type of boats I would suggest you look at the Dehler 29 that is one of the boats that have been more time in production among the ones that are made by mass production builders. A great boat.
http://www.dehler.com/#/gb/29/exterieur/
Or to the more modern Winner 9.0 (I don't know if they have managed to approve it as class A)
Sail-World.com : Yacht Feature: Winner 9.00, 'European Yacht of the Year' nomination
I believe that among the two type the superior overall stability and better dynamic stability will make the first one more suitable but again, I would not call them bluewater boats.
Cute little salty boat of the yesteryear:
CONTESSA 26 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
The new 30' boat is today's 40" to 60" with a garage plus all other goodies.
CONTESSA 26 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
The new 30' boat is today's 40" to 60" with a garage plus all other goodies.
its a weird question for sure
I have often wondered if simply designs of yesteryear made with newer materials would simply become the bluewater boats of today...
I think there is a point where one can no longer advance sailing in cruising terms...or maybe Im wrong...
are people in 50 years going to be on foils, singlehanding 100foot trimarans...as standard?
maybe? will that be considered bluewater or what?
dont know but these questions always leave more things unansrwered...
honestly I have no idea what new boats or designs are considered bluewater...these days(and im young)
in any case
I have often wondered if simply designs of yesteryear made with newer materials would simply become the bluewater boats of today...
I think there is a point where one can no longer advance sailing in cruising terms...or maybe Im wrong...
are people in 50 years going to be on foils, singlehanding 100foot trimarans...as standard?
maybe? will that be considered bluewater or what?
dont know but these questions always leave more things unansrwered...
honestly I have no idea what new boats or designs are considered bluewater...these days(and im young)
in any case
An old salt once said. There is no blue water boat, only blue water sailors. If building a few more feet and adding a few more tons to the boat, it will make us safer. I don't think so.
To think of it, I don't even know how to define a blue water sailor. Just like studying for an exam, you study and study over again. There is never a point that you will say - Hey that is enough. In the storm, there are so many variables, You just can't say, I am ready; hit me hard.
When I think "modern ocean boat" I think long, narrow, and light with the ability fly plenty of sail. Most boats designed for passages built today in your price range were designed 20+ years ago, so are not really "modern" in the sense you probably mean.
Here is one that is close to your size and much more "modern": Hallberg-Rassy - Yachts - Aft Cockpit Boats
Here is one that is close to your size and much more "modern": Hallberg-Rassy - Yachts - Aft Cockpit Boats
Bristol Channel cutters at 28' are considered by many to be the ideal small blue water boat. Many have done extraordinary passages and some the clock. They are back in production by Cape George Yachts.
Had a PSC 34' in the past. She never made me nervous. They are still in production down in N.C.
Had a small Cape Dory ( one a 25' another a 30'). Fine boat but not something I'd do blue water in. A bit squirrelly in strong wind when on broad reach to run. Used to drop the main >25-30kt. off the wind.
Had a PSC 34' in the past. She never made me nervous. They are still in production down in N.C.
Had a small Cape Dory ( one a 25' another a 30'). Fine boat but not something I'd do blue water in. A bit squirrelly in strong wind when on broad reach to run. Used to drop the main >25-30kt. off the wind.
wow didnt know they didnt even build under 36
its interesting to note the changes, modern blue water...it will be interesting to see how sailors change and how they will sail with different boats in the same oceans...
honestly I dont see modern boats being designed for offshore cruising or for the cruising market
I see the whole bigger, and beamier and more compfortable but that hardly makes a boat more blue water friendly
its interesting to note the changes, modern blue water...it will be interesting to see how sailors change and how they will sail with different boats in the same oceans...
honestly I dont see modern boats being designed for offshore cruising or for the cruising market
I see the whole bigger, and beamier and more compfortable but that hardly makes a boat more blue water friendly
RD- Agree with you except some will pay for cult boats like the BCC or for the beauty of them. Boat I always wanted to own but never did is the little Shannon 28'. Hear they were quite a reasonable vessel in blue water.
A bit bigger than OP suggests but have weathered a storm in a Hinckley pilot 35' off shore. She handled remarkably well and now can be had for short money given what you are getting.
A bit bigger than OP suggests but have weathered a storm in a Hinckley pilot 35' off shore. She handled remarkably well and now can be had for short money given what you are getting.
I think there are plenty of bigger boats designed specifically for cruising (which to me is the same as "blue water") in recent years: Island Packets, Saga, Ovni, Amel, Atlantic Cats, etc.
There are of course blue water racing boats too, but that is another beast.
There are of course blue water racing boats too, but that is another beast.
for me old designs built high tech would make me a happy camper in my older days...
I like how old boats sail and enjoy their perks and performance and offshore capabilities
for example making a nice folkboat in kevlar or something with ultralight masts and sails
making here even BETTER...I wouldnt see how putting a fin rudder on that boat would make it better for bluewater or a better design
newer materials and STRONGER YES...but what constitutes blue water and offshore capable has already been defined and proven countless times over...
for example whose out there cruising on new boats and how do they like them that would be a great way to see what constitues modern blue water capable boats I think
I like how old boats sail and enjoy their perks and performance and offshore capabilities
for example making a nice folkboat in kevlar or something with ultralight masts and sails
making here even BETTER...I wouldnt see how putting a fin rudder on that boat would make it better for bluewater or a better design
newer materials and STRONGER YES...but what constitutes blue water and offshore capable has already been defined and proven countless times over...
for example whose out there cruising on new boats and how do they like them that would be a great way to see what constitues modern blue water capable boats I think
I think computer modeling has revolutionized sailboat design. I think it turns out boats do not work the way we thought they did. Also previously you had to build a boat, stick it in the water, and then see what happens. Now you can design one and see what happens on a computer. This enables iterative design.
I read somewhere recently from a designer (can't find it now) that "Sailboat design has changed more in the past (20?) year than in the previous 500". I know for sure much of this is in the rig, but also in the keel and hull. Not sure how much of this will trickle down to cruising. Certainly much has already such as better sails, better sail shape, better rigging, better keels, roller furling. If you look at almost any rig designed in the past 10 years, it will have a full-roach main and multiple headsails on furlers. 20 years ago, there was much more variety in the types of rig designs. Furlers + material improvements + computer design has led to this complete change in the way we think about sailboat rigs. The same forces are part of what is making boats larger.
Hopefully we will hear a real designer weigh in on this and correct all my blunders
I read somewhere recently from a designer (can't find it now) that "Sailboat design has changed more in the past (20?) year than in the previous 500". I know for sure much of this is in the rig, but also in the keel and hull. Not sure how much of this will trickle down to cruising. Certainly much has already such as better sails, better sail shape, better rigging, better keels, roller furling. If you look at almost any rig designed in the past 10 years, it will have a full-roach main and multiple headsails on furlers. 20 years ago, there was much more variety in the types of rig designs. Furlers + material improvements + computer design has led to this complete change in the way we think about sailboat rigs. The same forces are part of what is making boats larger.
Hopefully we will hear a real designer weigh in on this and correct all my blunders
Kind of an interesting question, and as a certified 'old fart' who started sailing in '63, I have a few opinions (shocking!). When I was a young dockrat the term "bluewater" applied to boats and sailors who were fully prepared to go over the horizon in stalwart boats, with sketchy weather forecasts, often minimal electronics, mostly manual systems, maybe a wind vane, and no expectations of being rescued from the **** they got themselves into. They typically chose to sail heavy ass boats that could stand up to a beating weather-wise, that they could repair and maintain themselves and/or with minimal assistance, but were often sluggish in light air, and few were equipped to motor long distances.
With modern weather forecasting, GPS navigation, reliable power generation and autopilots, watermakers, satphones, SSB email, EPIRBs, generally speedier vessels under sail that are equipped & expected to motor well, all under the umbrella of greatly expanded search and rescue capabilities, and well, IMHO it's a whole different ballgame. If you have a modicum of common sense and a bit of sailing experience, the risks associated with "going offshore" have been tremendously reduced.
So, (finally), back to your question about modern bluewater boats. Are you asking what bulletproof, heavy double enders are in current production, or what modern small boats are designed and built with the idea that they provide safe offshore passages when equipped with modern equipment and sailed smartly?
With modern weather forecasting, GPS navigation, reliable power generation and autopilots, watermakers, satphones, SSB email, EPIRBs, generally speedier vessels under sail that are equipped & expected to motor well, all under the umbrella of greatly expanded search and rescue capabilities, and well, IMHO it's a whole different ballgame. If you have a modicum of common sense and a bit of sailing experience, the risks associated with "going offshore" have been tremendously reduced.
So, (finally), back to your question about modern bluewater boats. Are you asking what bulletproof, heavy double enders are in current production, or what modern small boats are designed and built with the idea that they provide safe offshore passages when equipped with modern equipment and sailed smartly?
I think that properly answer this question you need to start with an agreement defining what we are actually discussing. When I look at the collection of criteria, “modern day”, “bluewater sailboat” and “25-30 foot range” these collection of attributes seem almost mutually exclusive from my point of view. It is not that you can’t design a 25-30 foot bluewater cruiser, but pretty much by definition it would not be modern. (Yes, I know that was a double-negative but this is after-all the internet)
In my mind, by definition the term blue-water implies a boat that is optimized for distance voyaging. That boat would be different in my mind than a boat that was merely capable of making distant open water passages. Many boats can make a transoceanic passage with a bit of luck and a skilled crew. But to be optimized for distance voyaging, the boat would need a certain amount of self-reliance, robustness and capacity to carry all of the gear and consumables that the crew would need to make a long distance voyage.
As a rule of thumb that means the boat needs something like 4,500 lbs to 11,000 lbs (2000 kg. to 4989 kg.) of displacement per person. In the past, boats derived from traditional working water craft may have been able to carry that kind of displacement in 25-30 length on deck. But by definition, modern designs aim at L/D’s somewhere in the 110 to 165 range, with 165 actually being considered pretty heavy. That would suggest that at the light end a 4,500 lb, modern single-handed distance cruiser would have a 23 to 26 foot waterline, but at the high end, an 11,000 lb modern single hander would have a waterline in the 31 to 35 feet in length. If this were a double hander minimally it would have a waterline length around 29 feet, more optimally somewhere 37 feet, and at the high end of the load range, a truly ‘modern day’ cruiser for a couple would displace something less than 22,000 and have as much as 45 feet of waterline length.
If you make the boat shorter for its weight, it could still be a good offshore cruiser but it would not be a ‘modern day’ offshore cruiser. If you made a modern day design lighter and therefore shorter, it would eventually (somewhere greater than 30 feet) lack adequate carrying capacity to properly support its crew as a distance voyager, and fall back into a category that I would perhaps call a boat with passage making capabilities.
In any event, there are a lot of folks building decent boats with passage making capabilities, some of which are modern day designs. And there are still some folks building small long distance voyaging vessels. But I don’t know that anyone is building modern day, bluewater cruisers in the 25-30 foot range, nor do I believe that such is actually possible by the definitions above.
Respectfully,
Jeff
In my mind, by definition the term blue-water implies a boat that is optimized for distance voyaging. That boat would be different in my mind than a boat that was merely capable of making distant open water passages. Many boats can make a transoceanic passage with a bit of luck and a skilled crew. But to be optimized for distance voyaging, the boat would need a certain amount of self-reliance, robustness and capacity to carry all of the gear and consumables that the crew would need to make a long distance voyage.
As a rule of thumb that means the boat needs something like 4,500 lbs to 11,000 lbs (2000 kg. to 4989 kg.) of displacement per person. In the past, boats derived from traditional working water craft may have been able to carry that kind of displacement in 25-30 length on deck. But by definition, modern designs aim at L/D’s somewhere in the 110 to 165 range, with 165 actually being considered pretty heavy. That would suggest that at the light end a 4,500 lb, modern single-handed distance cruiser would have a 23 to 26 foot waterline, but at the high end, an 11,000 lb modern single hander would have a waterline in the 31 to 35 feet in length. If this were a double hander minimally it would have a waterline length around 29 feet, more optimally somewhere 37 feet, and at the high end of the load range, a truly ‘modern day’ cruiser for a couple would displace something less than 22,000 and have as much as 45 feet of waterline length.
If you make the boat shorter for its weight, it could still be a good offshore cruiser but it would not be a ‘modern day’ offshore cruiser. If you made a modern day design lighter and therefore shorter, it would eventually (somewhere greater than 30 feet) lack adequate carrying capacity to properly support its crew as a distance voyager, and fall back into a category that I would perhaps call a boat with passage making capabilities.
In any event, there are a lot of folks building decent boats with passage making capabilities, some of which are modern day designs. And there are still some folks building small long distance voyaging vessels. But I don’t know that anyone is building modern day, bluewater cruisers in the 25-30 foot range, nor do I believe that such is actually possible by the definitions above.
Respectfully,
Jeff
I think you are all nuts. A modern boat is safer, faster, and more capable than anything of the same leingth from 50 years ago. Two hundred years ago the mortality rate for a circumnavigation was assumed to be over 50%. Today people do it all the time with little concern.
The reality is that boats from 50 years ago are heavier than they need to be, weaker than they could be, and slow.
If you want a modern Bluewater boat take a look at the mini 6.5, or the Pogo. A little longer and you get into a Quest 30, or a Figgaro-Beneteau 33. Rocket ship fast, stable, easy to sail, in fact most of these are designed for single handed racing. Sure they have a different motion than boats five times their weight, but that's a good thing.
The reality is that boats from 50 years ago are heavier than they need to be, weaker than they could be, and slow.
If you want a modern Bluewater boat take a look at the mini 6.5, or the Pogo. A little longer and you get into a Quest 30, or a Figgaro-Beneteau 33. Rocket ship fast, stable, easy to sail, in fact most of these are designed for single handed racing. Sure they have a different motion than boats five times their weight, but that's a good thing.
why on earth are you guys talking mini transat boats?
first off there is and should be a clear distinction between offshore racing boats and cruisers
you cant compare them and try to make them the same
you just cant
sorry! jajajaja
first off there is and should be a clear distinction between offshore racing boats and cruisers
you cant compare them and try to make them the same
you just cant
sorry! jajajaja
loading it right now!
nice thats a nordic folkboat, mine was the marieholm, in plastic but still man what sweet boats the contessa had some mods done to it but still a great boat
anywhoo
nice thats a nordic folkboat, mine was the marieholm, in plastic but still man what sweet boats the contessa had some mods done to it but still a great boat
anywhoo
To the OP. In that size range would add a Bob boat. Robert Harris not our BP. The boat is a Vancouver 27. Sweet strong craft. Still as usual Jeff hit the nail on the head. All the small boats I think of as blue water cruisers ( meaning they will carry a meaningful payload and allow a measure of comfort) are heavy displacement and by modern standards narrow and slack bilged. The modern flyers are at the opposite end of the spectrum. As stated there still is a market for some of the best of the older designs so they are still in production.
Interesting a boat with two at 2500lbs
My water and fuel (200gal. water 200gal. Of fuel) weights more than their boat . Add in pots/ pans/ tools/ fun stuff/ books/ clothes/safety/ communication stuff and my wife and I are probably well past their total weight with all their supplies when we are just cruising around. This is not considering the weight of our boat/sails/dinghy/ outboard nor our food and libations.
Nothing spartan about us and don't think we are hedonists either from what I see around. Rather fairly in the middle of the road. Crouch rockets v. Gold wings or K bikes. 3 thousand v 30k. Oh well won't trade places. Would get old fast living like that.
No wonder they went non stop. Probably couldn't get off the boat or dress nice enough to go out.
My water and fuel (200gal. water 200gal. Of fuel) weights more than their boat . Add in pots/ pans/ tools/ fun stuff/ books/ clothes/safety/ communication stuff and my wife and I are probably well past their total weight with all their supplies when we are just cruising around. This is not considering the weight of our boat/sails/dinghy/ outboard nor our food and libations.
Nothing spartan about us and don't think we are hedonists either from what I see around. Rather fairly in the middle of the road. Crouch rockets v. Gold wings or K bikes. 3 thousand v 30k. Oh well won't trade places. Would get old fast living like that.
No wonder they went non stop. Probably couldn't get off the boat or dress nice enough to go out.
Once again Jeff is spot on- That's the fundamental dichotomy. Weight is the enemy of speed. Weight means creature comforts. Elimination of weight requires construction methods that devolve into great expense and use of materials/methods that require addition expense if repair required. You decide up front- I want a boat that's reasonably fast but place a premium on safety and long term comfort or I want a boat that's as fast as possible and are willing to deal with the compromises that entails. When cruising most live on the boat. Even when voyaging most still spent more time on the boat than on land. I have no interest in leaving the boat for a hot shower, a big berth, or a good meal. That's why in the OPs size range modern boats are being bought and sailed by the mountain climbers not the hikers.
Paulo you are undeniably right - bigger boats are safer. But is also true some prefer boats that sail in the water rather then on the water for comfort and carrying along the kitchen sink. However, looking at folks like the Pardeys or the blogs of BCC owners it's also true many voyages have been successfully been completed by these small, heavy displacement craft.
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
