NY probably same as here in that the buyer is entirely responsible for payment of "use tax", not dealers or sellers. For state registered boats the DMV collects at time of registration. For documented boats buyer is required to pay tax to state tax board, if you don't, they will eventually get to you and want interest and maybe penalties. Local BAR associations usually have a referral system where you can speak to a lawyer for $50 for 1/2 hour that will at least let you know if you would benefit from legal representation. I fear you are "on the hook" for taxes.

 

Yes but what sort of wiggle room can I fine to reduce it.

 

There is a lot packed into the opening post. First, sales and use taxes are ultimately the responsibility of the buyer. Merchants are only required to collect them, under certain circumstances, and pass them along. That's why you occasionally hear of a business being chained, due to failure to pay sales taxes. Unlike failure to pay their income taxes, failing to turn over the sales taxes is flat out stealing. They just kept the buyer's money, it was never theirs.

If the boat was purchased in CT and subsequently used in NY, then NY would want Use Tax, not sales tax. Check to see if they are the same rate. The rate that would apply and the value it would apply to, would typically be the one at the time the boat is being used in NY, not the original purchase date. In some cases, if you bring it back quickly after purchase, value is assumed to be purchase price. I think NY provides for a credit for any sales taxes that may have been paid to another State. That's common, but not always the case. If you paid CT sales taxes on the original purchase price, I'll bet you owe nothing more today, perhaps only a little.

If you need it registered in NY now, I would skip any past transgressions and go through the process like it just arrived. That's not official advice, just what I think I'd do. Let sleeping dogs lie? Probably more fruitful to call the State and ask what they need for documents on a boat you bought 30 years ago and are bringing back to NY now. I'm guessing your USCG documentation is going to suffice. The dinghy may be your bigger headache. They often require some form of prior registration, in order to transfer to NY.

The only snag I see is the State may ask you to produce a storage or marina bill showing it was really out of State prior to now. If it just came back in 2020, you may still be in luck, as I think individuals can pay any prior year Use taxes, with their State Income Taxes and be considered timely. Check that out, I think I took advantage of that in NY 30 years ago.

 

Think of the sticker you receive from your State as 1.) Proof of payment of use and excise tax and 2.) registration UNLESS the vessel is documented. You actually can't be BOTH documented and "registered" in the "displayed number" sense. Both are recording methods for liens and Ships First Preferred Mortgage, Bills of Sale, etc. If you're documented, no registration numbers on the bow of the boat. If you are BOTH, you've thrown in some confusion. Claimants, mortgagees, buyers for that matter, that check such things might stop at the Federal level when you have State liens and vice versa. You STILL may have to get a sticker in your State just to demonstrate you paid appropriate taxes through your municipal office, but even though it may say "registration," it ain't. It's not supposed to be, I should say. It just means they "registered" your payment of taxes for that particular year. But for God's sake don't try to explain that to the town office. Now I'm confused.

 

You actually can't be BOTH documented and "registered" in the "displayed number" sense. Both are recording methods for liens and Ships First Preferred Mortgage, Bills of Sale, etc. If you're documented, no registration numbers on the bow of the boat.

This is NOT accurate.

Documentation is an alternative to having a Title. My sailboat is documented, and I renew the documentation every year. I do not have a Title for my sailboat.

My dinghy is not documented. I do have a title for the dinghy. I had to provide the state of RI with a bunch of notarized documents that satisfy the states title requirements.

Registration identifies the specific boat and the owner to the state in which the vessel is normally berthed. I do not display any registration numbers on my sailboat (nor should I). When I bought the sailboat, I was a MA resident. I have never kept the sailboat in MA, nor have I paid any MA taxes or fees for the boat. I must display RI registration numbers on my dinghy.

Some of you may recall that John Kerry was lambasted for buying a boat in RI, documenting it in Newport, RI, and then keeping it in Nantucket, MA.

I have kept my boat in RI. Her hailing port is Barrington, RI (although I haven't been to Barrington in several years). I MUST pay the RI DEM a REGISTRATION fee and display a current RI Registration Sticker, or the RI DEM will come after me for my vessel's registration fee. Rhode Island charges $212 to register a boat of 31-35 feet for 2 years. The sticker is issued to the owner after the registration fee and documents provided to the DEM. See http://www.dem.ri.gov/programs/bpoladm/manserv/hfb/boating/pdfs/btregreq.pdf

In the fall of 2020 I brought my sailboat to FL. The boat is still documented in my name, and still registered in RI. Yet, because it is in Florida waters for greater than 29 days, I had to also register my sailboat in FL. Florida registration for my boat for 2 years was all of $8. Therefore, my sailboat, which is documented, is registered in TWO states!

I have been keeping my dinghy either in my garage (at home) or the foredeck of my sailboat and have therefore avoided having to register the dinghy in Florida (or pay Florida sales tax), because it has not been in Florida waters for 29 days.

Addressing @SanderO 's situation; I would do as @Minnewaska suggests, and REGISTER THE BOAT IN NY ASAP, and allow the people at the registry to infer that you recently decided to move her to a new port. Hope that the sleeping dog stays asleep, but be prepared if it does not.

 

State registration and USCG documentation are not different forms of the same thing. USCG, via the NVDC, is a method to demonstrate you own the boat. A better analogy would be a title, which some States also issue and you can't have both.

Registration is one's permit to use the vessel, for more than transient purposes, in a State's waters. Many, but not all States require registration, even if the vessel is Documented. Indeed, you do not display the numbers on the bow, if Documented, but registration is still a thing. Yes, it's just a money grab.

 

Hey,

Wow, what a story!

I wonder if you could sell the boat to a friend, and then buy it back. Now you have a bill of sale and you can go to the NY DMV, register the boat, and pay the sales tax. Your purchase price needs to be something close to the actual value of the boat, or the DMV will question the price.

Good luck,
Barry

 

Just go register it and find out how much they ask you for? If they don't great if it's too much don't register it...

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(I live in CT still though so here they tell you right at the desk how much it will be.)

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If you bought the boat in CT from a CT dealer, that dealer would have no interest the subject of a NY sales tax.

The following is based on my experience with use tax in Massachusetts for a boat purchase outside of MA, NY practice may vary )

I would not contact NY. If NY becomes aware that you owned a boat, which was in NY, and you were a NY resident, and that you have not paid a sales/use tax on the boat, NY will demand the original use tax, plus interest from the date the boat entered NY, plus penalties depending on how long ago that was. You likely face total charges many times the original sales/use tax. If NY does not know when the boat entered NY, they will base the use tax and interest based the date you purchased the boat, and require you to prove something different. Proof requires receipts/contracts for the storage of the boat outside NY.

I am surprised that you are a NY resident owning a documented boat and NY has not chased you for the use tax. Has your NY address been on the doc all along? The reason I ask is the in MA the tax authorities routinely scan the USCG documentation records, and audit the sales files of boat dealers in neighboring states for records containing MA resident buyers. For MA resident buyers, if MA cannot find a matching sales/use tax payment, MA send the resident a demand request for the use tax based on the purchase price, plus interest and penalties since the original purchase date.

For example, while a MA resident in 1988 I purchased a new one design from a Maine builder, sailed it a few years, then sold the boat and moved to MN. The boat had no engine so it was never registered. In 1994 I received a demand notice for MA for the use tax, plus six years of interest and penalties, which more than doubled the original tax. Apparently MA had visited the builder and picked up the sale record with my address (dumb!). We shot letters back and forth for a year or so, I challenged MA to prove the boat was ever in Massachusetts, they responded that I had to prove that it never was, which of course I could not do. So recognizing that I was likely some day to return to MA, I offered to pay the original sales tax amount if MA forgave the interest and penalties, and thus we settled.

State tax authorities are cut throat about use tax and I would have thought NY to be more a tax bulldog than even MA.

Your ownership in 1985 would have started with a USCG 1340 bill of sale, or whatever the form was back then. So you (and the NY authorities) should be able to search the documentation records and find that bill of sale. If NY were to find it, you'd be cooked, but its a puzzle why they haven't already. Put your boat name and doc number into Google and you might be able to find the record immediately.

To reset this situation, you'd need to get clean documentation, use a 1340 to transfer ownership to a relative, then a subsequent 1340 to transfer back to you, I"d use the original purchase price and pay the current use tax. You'd want to check with an attorney to make sure that a slight of hand like this doesn't change an admirative tax problem into some form of fraud...

Otherwise some states periodically have tax holidays where one can come in and volunteer unpaid taxes and the state skips any penalties, you might look into whether NY ever does that.


,

 

Per this NYS Tax Memorandum

https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/memos/sales/m15_2s.pdf

If you purchased and operated the boat outside NY for more than six months, then brought it into the State and registered it, you would owe sales and use tax (equal to the sales tax in the locality where you reside) based on the lesser of purchase price or current fair market value.

"Part SS also changed the timing for the payment of any use tax due on a vessel that is purchased by a New York resident outside the state and subsequently used in New York. The amendments provide that the use tax is not due until the first of these events occurs:
• the date that the vessel is required to be registered with the Department of Motor Vehicles; or
• the date that the vessel is actually registered with the Department of Motor Vehicles; or
• the date when the purchaser of the vessel uses the vessel in New York State for more than 90 consecutive days.
The amount subject to New York State use tax is the lesser of $230,000, the purchase price of the vessel, or the current fair market value of the vessel if the vessel was used by the purchaser outside of New York State for more than six months prior to its first use in New York. See DMV transaction forms on our Web site for more information on registering a vessel and paying any use tax due."

 

Um. The "registration" allows an easy search of liens recorded with the State, either through the registering entity or the Secretary of State under Article 9 of the Uniform Commercial Code. Like other personal property a lender or claimant might claim against. I can record a lien with the registering entity in the Virgin Islands OR the Lieutenant Governor's office. Maine doesn't issue Titles, either. Title's got nothing to do with it. However, if it is a documented vessel, the lien would be recorded with NVDC Falling Waters WV. Otherwise how could a bank find a non-documented vessel to foreclose? O.K. I'm out on this one. Everyone's an expert.

 

If you are only just now registering it in NY can't you just claim that it lived in CT 7 months a year prior to today?

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Intentional active deception to defraud the state is the one factor here I'm certain about.

Don't do that!

Physically taking it out of state (R.I?) for over six months getting it fully legal there, and then re-importing it to NY would be pretty straightforward.

Keeping your mouth shut except wrt direct questions is always a good strategy

 

Agreed, letting sleeping dogs lie is different from actual lying. Technically, the first moment the boat made landfall in NY, by a NY resident, it probably accrued Use taxes that day. Residents do not typically get transient grace periods. I have a feeling that was many years ago, for SO, even though it more recently has been in CT.

I briefly tried to look up the statute of limitations for NY sales tax. It seems it's 3 years for the State to assert additional taxes due, but no limit if one failed to file at all. If that's correct, that's a big risk.

IIRC, the boat is currently in CT, at a marina for the winter. If she's registered in CT, this may appear a pretty clear path to NY registration. If she was never registered anywhere, that's a risk everywhere. One strategy may be to just keep the boat out of NY altogether and keep her State registered, wherever that is now.

 

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. There are no liens. I did a search for the doc # and it shows no information on the date of purchase or amount of the sale. It's basically data about the boat... It does state the boat was manufactured in Holland in 1985.

So... if the dealer is no longer in business... and I don't have a bill of sale... how would I proceed to register the boat?

Bill of Sale can be created using an online form called FormSwift. It's a template and you fill in the fields and it prints out a document titled "Boat Bill of Sale". Would this Bill of Sale be acceptable for registration purposes?

If I go to DMV with a created BoS and attempt to register the boat what will the clerk do? The BoS does not mention sales tax. Registration requires proof that sales tax has been paid. I suppose if it has not been paid, you are required to pay tax at the time of registration.... How much? What rate?

If I present a BoS that the boat was recently purchased (used) but no tax was paid to the seller... would they compute tax due, collect it and register the boat? Suppose I sold the boat the my wife? And she is registering it as the new owner?

Do I tell them the boat was documented and not in NYS for most of the time since 1985 but now is being kept in CT and NY? Would NYS require proof? (I don't have these records of where the boat was each and every year. Or would they compute use tax... ask me to pay and issue a registration?

 

Registration requires proof that sales tax has been paid. I suppose if it has not been paid, you are required to pay tax at the time of registration.... How much? What rate?

Asked and answer, my man. You do not pay sales tax on a boat you purchased decades ago. You pay use tax on the current value at the current rate. Your sticky wicket is this should have technically been done, when you first brought the boat to NY years ago. That use tax may be offset by sales you paid on the purchase date to another State.

If I present a BoS that the boat was recently purchased (used) but no tax was paid to the seller... would they compute tax due, collect it and register the boat? Suppose I sold the boat the my wife? And she is registering it as the new owner?

That's the way it normall works, as private sellers have no obligation to collect sales taxes and turn them over to the State. Selling to your wife may or may not work. Having the same last name, if that's the case, may generate suspicion.

Do I tell them the boat was documented and not in NYS for most of the time since 1985 but now is being kept in CT and NY? Would NYS require proof? (I don't have these records of where the boat was each and every year. Or would they compute use tax... ask me to pay and issue a registration?

There is no exemption for "most" of the time, I'm sure. You're in a snag, because you didn't pay what you were supposed to pay, when you were supposed to pay it. Hard to navigate around that now. I think the best is to call the State Tax Help Line, where I do not believe you need to identify yourself. Just ask them what they want for a boat you purchased and kept out of State for the last 30 years, lost the original bill of sale and now want to register in NY.

Maybe there is another solution path here. Why do you want it registered in NY? Are you bringing it back to NY again? Has it ever been registered in any State?

If you sell the boat, this may all stay asleep. Why awake the dog now?

 

I will have a NYS mooring... my CT summer slip was sold... so I needed to find a mooring.

I didn't set out to avoid paying sales tax. Dealer at the time told me to document and that was all I had to do. Why he didn't charge/collect sales tax is a mystery to me. Every time I buy something like a car or a camera vendor charges and collects sales tax.

No one asked me for my registration... when I rented a mooring or for winter storage I gave the Doc# and that was that.

It was only on the last several years I realized I had not paid taxes due... so I want to get this settled, If it is not a problem to sell the boat I don't really care much... I suppose the buyer will pay tax when the deal closes.

However if I do go for a state registration I would like to pay the least tax I can...

 

Why he didn't charge/collect sales tax is a mystery to me.

Because he was a CT dealer selling to NY resident and had no obligation to collect either State's taxes, if you were taking the boat to NY. That did not mean you didn't owe them. Truth is, back then, people commonly pulled the wool over the State's eyes, by Documenting with Delaware or RI hailports, etc, to evade taxes. They also commonly bought out of State, said they were going home, but never did. These scams don't make one bit of difference to where you actually owe taxes, but back when there was no internet or big computer databases, it was harder for the State's to identify the fakes. They are very, very good at it now.

Why not just find a place to keep it in CT, until it's sold?

 

Boats in NY that are USCG documented don't display registration numbers but do have to have the registration sticker on the bow. That's typically how they determine a boat is not registered and thus has probably not paid the sales/use tax. If you want to avoid the possibility of getting caught, just apply for NY registration. I would just say the boat was bought in another state, kept out of state, and now being kept in NY. Your USCG documentation should serve as proof that you own the boat. NY does not issue titles for boats.

 

OK... so I want to register the boat.... I have no


OK... fine... so I go to NYS DMV to register the boat.... I tell them it has been in CT and will be moving to NY and needs a NYS registration.... I don't have the 1985 bill of sale. How would they compute the "use tax"?

 

If it helps @SanderO ; when I brought my boat into, and registered it in Florida, the only documents that I had to provide to the local tax assessor (where boat registrations are processed) were the "Certification for Antique Vessel Registration," my Certificate of Documentation, and a check for $8. I did not need to provide a bill of sale. I don't recall clearly, but I don't believe that the assessor even asked to see my current registration from Rhode Island.

As @JimsCAL 's post implies; I look at the registration sticker as a quick way for the local LEO to see that any state taxes have been paid.

 

When I registered my RIB... which was purchased in RI....I had to show the bill of sale which included sales tax. I was not assessed additional taxes due and a registration and sticker were given to me on the spot. I am pretty sure the state is looking to see that taxes were paid SOMEWHERE.

So I have no idea what the NY DMV would do without a bill of sale... and only a documentation presented. I could try.... they could not issue or maybe they would... they could kick it upstairs and try to collect taxes somehow.... burden of proof of having paid being on me. No proof then they must have a formula to establish the use tax. If it's based on present value... do they look it up in the "blue book"?

 

Well, you could try and register it here in Florida

 

hahaha....
I have a better idea... YOU could register the boat for me.... How much do you charge?

 

Hello,

Some points:
1. NY does not have a use tax.
2. NY has sales tax, which must be paid when the boat is registered (at the department of motor behicles - DMV).
3. The DMV site has lots of great information on registering a boat, paying the tax, etc.

Register a Boat | NY DMV

Information and fees to register and title a boat.

dmv.ny.gov

4. The sales tax rate is determined by the county and by the state. In my county, the total sales tax is 8.625%
5. I think your big issue will be in determining the value of your boat. If you state the value is too low NY won't accept it and it will find a 'reasonable' value.
6. I think your suggestion of selling the boat to your wife might be the easiest way. You could sell the boat to her for $5000 (I have no idea if that is reasonable or not but you can do some checking - you could always state the boat is in poor condition, etc).
7. You will need a bill of sale.

Good luck,

Barry

 

1. NY does not have a use tax.

This is incorrect.

Use Tax for Individuals (including Estates and Trusts)

www.tax.ny.gov

 

Yeah if it's the first time this boat is getting registered you won't be getting out of the sales tax. (but it shouldn't be that bad anyway). Back-dated use taxes are another matter but it sounds like that's not a thing in NY anyway from Barry's post. Sales tax is a one-time fee either you paid it or not. Registration fees or use taxes are different. In CT you pay sales once at the time of purchase and registration fees every year (but they are pretty nominal). There is no property tax (maybe depending on town but generally not) or use taxes. They don't seem to care much about the past as long as there isn't a lien for unpaid taxes on it. More less if it's in the system you pay, if it's not you don't, just don't get caught using the ship unregistered. I'm not sure how NY works but it's probably similiar. You are going to pay the ~8% one time no matter what if you register it in NY but I doubt they are going to go for back-taxes. Just tell them it was kept in another state until now, that is at least a partial truth from what I read before I believe.

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You need to remember this boat is documented and states will have special rules for such which may not show very clearly in the public website. If you do google search you can find a link to a document that lays it all out

Https://dmv.ny.gov/forms/boats.pdf

So any bill of sales needs to be a USCG 1340 or similar.

Again the fact this boat is documented and has been since at least 1985 is a bit of a wild card. Don't the NY tax folks know how to use the publicly available USCG the history of ownership of a vessel?

I remain puzzled this situation could have existed un-discovered so long. Any chance the doc doesn't say NY?

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No the doc says NYS... I lived at a different address in NYC at the time...

there was no sales tax paid.
What is the tax rate? 2021 or 1985?
If this is registered as a USED boat... it's 35 yrs old.... what is the value for sales tax purposes?

++++

So I can tell them I am bring the boat into NY and it was documented and now needs to be registered...

 

Yes of course CT also requires registration, but there is no town property tax. Call the DMV and just explain the sitch and ask what to do.

Selling to your wife would be tax fraud, could well cost a lot more, red flags.

For "current value", put down well over 50% of the lowest price you would accept selling her, that should be OK.

Those charity donation sites apparently use mailorder CO rego for boats lacking paperwork?

 

I think you are asking questions only NY DMV can answer. Time to stop asking for guesses from the pundits here and talk to them.

 

The links that sailingfool and I provided above answer your questions, except for current value. You should just call DMV and ask what proof of current value they require on an older boat. The tax rate will be your local sales tax rate--state and local. Your documentation papers are proof of ownership. You shouldn't need a bill of sale. You will tell them you are bringing the boat from CT for the first time.

 

I am in CT and was intending to remain there. I had a sweet deal in my winter slip... for the summer until the slip was sold... so I may not even have the same for winter next year... but the place is quite empty so there will be a winter slip.
I think the summer ones are too expensive...like 2x or more what a mooring is. I can inquire and find out. But the easy think was to arrange for a NPT mooring. It's pretty there... And I don't know anything remotely similar on the CT shore.

We were not happy with Old Lyme. Bugs... current and the owner ripped me off on the repair... and it was a long drive,

Any CT suggestions?

 

Any CT suggestions?

When I was a kid, Norwalk was affordable. South Norwalk was bombed out, at the time, but has been fully revitalized. Nice little downtown. Might be worth checking out. Not sure about moorings, at least up near town.

I always liked the Mystic area, lots of choices. Long drive from Westchester.

Here is a out there idea. Bite the bullet and bring the boat to RI. There are mooring fields everywhere. Register away, there are no sales taxes on the Mother Ship in RI. Good place to sell a boat too. I have a friend who listed their sailboat for sale last month, while on the hard, and it sold sight unseen in one week. Yes the market here is still hot.

The 90 day rule can be nuts... if you winter in CT and summer in LI you have to re register the boat every 6 months

Some States have exemptions for winter storage and/or being laid up for repair. I do not know if CT or NY are among them.

What's the big deal about paying the sales tax? Is there like back interest on it or something?

Back interest and penalties are exactly the problem. Simply registering today and paying use tax on the current value of the boat is very straight forward. The pothole is whether the State figures out or asks SO to prove whether the boat had previously been in NYS and it had. That's when Use Tax was original triggered. I'll add that, while State's have 90ish day exemptions for transients, they typically have zero day exemptions for their own residents. Once you bring your purchase into your home State, Use Tax typically accrues immediately.

 

Moving the boat to NY seems to be the problem here. If you sell the boat in CT, you use the Coast Guard bill of Sale, and the buyer worries about paying the registration fee/sales tax for whatever state he moves the boat to. Not your problem. If you move the boat to NY, then JimsCAL's suggestion makes the most sense. If the boat has been in CT for more than 90 days, it should have been registered in CT, or at least paid the CT registration fee. (Similar to the NY State registration sticker on the bow.) Marina operators and harbormasters are supposed to file lists of the boats using their facilities so that the state can track boats that are liable for the fees and make sure they've paid. Surprised that the CT DMV hasn't caught up with you.

There are plenty of other places in CT than Old Lyme. Milford Boatworks, Captain's Cove in Black Rock, and Cove Marina in Norwalk would be shorter trips.